[Advaita-l] [advaitin] SSSS on the controversy between mulav7idya and abhavarupa - directly and simply explained as per SSSS

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Venkat ji,
This is news to me. He doesn't accept a bhAvarupa ajnAna or bhAvarupA
avidyA.

So in his system, surely abhAvarUpa ajnAna = abhAvarUpA avidyA?

Regards,
Venkatraghavan QQ

On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 17:10 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>
> Yes. Exactly. That is what I suspected. But preferred that you mention it
> yourself. He does differentiate differentiate avidyA and ajnAna !!! That is
> the whole issue we are talking about !!
>
> Regards
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:32 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>> Yes, he has said adhyAsa originates from ajnAna. I shared the text a
>> couple of mails ago, but here it is again -  न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं
>> संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते.
>>
>> Don't tell me he differentiates avidyA and ajnAna!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:57 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>
>>> I have not read Hacker. Hence I did not comment directly on his
>>> statement.
>>>
>>> Reg // Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA
>>> in the kleshApahAriNi //,
>>>
>>> Where exactly has he said this. Probably he has said adhyAsa originates
>>> from ajnAna ?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:11 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>> Doesn't Sri SSS admit that there is an avidyA that is the cause of
>>>> adhyAsa in the kleshApahAriNi whereas he holds that avidyA and adhyAsa are
>>>> identical in the mUlAvidyA nirAsah quote provided by Hacker? Is Hacker's
>>>> understanding of Sri SSS' position wrong ?
>>>>
>>>> See below - in what sense did Sri SSS mean this:
>>>> mitho viruddha svabhAvayor Atma anAtmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>> avidyeti.
>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>
>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>
>>>> With respect to this:
>>>> // Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered to
>>>> pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa be
>>>> for a moment conceded to exist //.
>>>>
>>>> Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA in the
>>>> kleshApahAriNi.
>>>>
>>>> If Sri SSS is willing to accept that there is no harm to advaita due to
>>>> adhyAsa, why is there harm to advaita if there is an adhyasta avidyA -
>>>> because that is what we are talking about.
>>>>
>>>> The avidyA we are talking of is adhyasta, so it is subject to adhyAsa.
>>>> He himself concedes that adhyAsa originates from avidyA, which in our
>>>> conception is adhyasta - so adhyAsa (of mind ego etc) does originate from
>>>> adhyAsa of ignorance only. What is the problem?
>>>>
>>>> There is no second anadhyasta entity for him to worry about. Whether
>>>> avidyA is abhAvarUpa or adhyasta, there is no harm to advaita.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:15 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t think Sri SSS takes any different position in KleshpahAriNi.
>>>>> His objection is for considering avidyA as kAraNa for adhyAsa. His position
>>>>> is that any bhAvarUpa avidyA, any such **positive** entity, as kAraNa for
>>>>> adhyAsa takes it outside the purview of adhyAsa. And this is advaitahAni.
>>>>> This is what is stated in the quote cited by Sudhanshu Ji
>>>>>
>>>>> // *Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered
>>>>> to pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa
>>>>> be for a moment conceded to exist //.*
>>>>>
>>>>> This is his consistent refrain in VPP. He brings out that this
>>>>> objection is valid in respect of practically all the commentaries like
>>>>> PanchapAdika, VivaraNa, Ishta Siddhi, Bhamati etc. In an earlier private
>>>>> discussion with an acknowledged authority on SSS works, who was very
>>>>> closely associated with the KAryAlaya as well, I had pointed out that this
>>>>> is practically his only objection highlighted in VPP against all the
>>>>> commentaries, and that we could concentrate on resolving this issue. He had
>>>>> discussed this with others as well and agreed with me that we could just
>>>>> pursue this one issue further. Unfortunately the discussions could not be
>>>>> taken beyond a certain point to a logical conclusion as it was felt that
>>>>> face to face discussions were needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have tried several times to locate this in VPP, because the original
>>>>> Sanskrit version needs to be cited for any meaningful debate. But somehow
>>>>> it has been eluding me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I feel any headway is possible only if this one issue is resolved.
>>>>> Other issues are really secondary to this.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 9:36 AM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>>> Yes you are right. I had misunderstood Sri SSS' position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sri Sudhanshu pointed me to the line in the kleshApahAriNi where Sri
>>>>>> SSS
>>>>>> says - न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते, येन
>>>>>> तदतिरेकेण
>>>>>> मिथ्याज्ञानम् एव अज्ञानम् इति आग्रहः स्यात्।
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So he seems to agree that there is a mithyAjnAna different to ajnAna
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> without ajnAna, mithyAjnAna cannot rise - but, presumably, he does
>>>>>> not wish
>>>>>> to go on to say ajnAna is the material cause of such a mithyAjnAna.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, this position that there is an avidyA different to mithyA
>>>>>> jnAna
>>>>>> does appear to contradict his position from the mUlAvidyA nirAsah
>>>>>> quoted by
>>>>>> Hacker: -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mitho viruddha svyabhavayor Atma anatmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the kleshApahAriNi, he takes the opposite position.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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