[Advaita-l] [advaitin] SSSS on the controversy between mulav7idya and abhavarupa - directly and simply explained as per SSSS

[Venkatraghavan S]

Haha, I am totally and utterly taken aback by this!

On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 17:17 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>
> Ha ha. You are surely bowled over. You have even addressed me as ** Venkat
> Ji** !!!
>
> Regards
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:44 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat ji,
>> This is news to me. He doesn't accept a bhAvarupa ajnAna or bhAvarupA
>> avidyA.
>>
>> So in his system, surely abhAvarUpa ajnAna = abhAvarUpA avidyA?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan QQ
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 17:10 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>
>>> Yes. Exactly. That is what I suspected. But preferred that you mention
>>> it yourself. He does differentiate differentiate avidyA and ajnAna !!! That
>>> is the whole issue we are talking about !!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:32 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>> Yes, he has said adhyAsa originates from ajnAna. I shared the text a
>>>> couple of mails ago, but here it is again -  न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं
>>>> संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते.
>>>>
>>>> Don't tell me he differentiates avidyA and ajnAna!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:57 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not read Hacker. Hence I did not comment directly on his
>>>>> statement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reg // Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA
>>>>> in the kleshApahAriNi //,
>>>>>
>>>>> Where exactly has he said this. Probably he has said adhyAsa
>>>>> originates from ajnAna ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:11 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>>> Doesn't Sri SSS admit that there is an avidyA that is the cause of
>>>>>> adhyAsa in the kleshApahAriNi whereas he holds that avidyA and adhyAsa are
>>>>>> identical in the mUlAvidyA nirAsah quote provided by Hacker? Is Hacker's
>>>>>> understanding of Sri SSS' position wrong ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See below - in what sense did Sri SSS mean this:
>>>>>> mitho viruddha svabhAvayor Atma anAtmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With respect to this:
>>>>>> // Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered to
>>>>>> pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa be
>>>>>> for a moment conceded to exist //.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA in
>>>>>> the kleshApahAriNi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Sri SSS is willing to accept that there is no harm to advaita due
>>>>>> to adhyAsa, why is there harm to advaita if there is an adhyasta avidyA -
>>>>>> because that is what we are talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The avidyA we are talking of is adhyasta, so it is subject to
>>>>>> adhyAsa. He himself concedes that adhyAsa originates from avidyA, which in
>>>>>> our conception is adhyasta - so adhyAsa (of mind ego etc) does originate
>>>>>> from adhyAsa of ignorance only. What is the problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no second anadhyasta entity for him to worry about. Whether
>>>>>> avidyA is abhAvarUpa or adhyasta, there is no harm to advaita.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:15 H S Chandramouli, <
>>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don’t think Sri SSS takes any different position in KleshpahAriNi.
>>>>>>> His objection is for considering avidyA as kAraNa for adhyAsa. His position
>>>>>>> is that any bhAvarUpa avidyA, any such **positive** entity, as kAraNa for
>>>>>>> adhyAsa takes it outside the purview of adhyAsa. And this is advaitahAni.
>>>>>>> This is what is stated in the quote cited by Sudhanshu Ji
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> // *Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered
>>>>>>> to pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa
>>>>>>> be for a moment conceded to exist //.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is his consistent refrain in VPP. He brings out that this
>>>>>>> objection is valid in respect of practically all the commentaries like
>>>>>>> PanchapAdika, VivaraNa, Ishta Siddhi, Bhamati etc. In an earlier private
>>>>>>> discussion with an acknowledged authority on SSS works, who was very
>>>>>>> closely associated with the KAryAlaya as well, I had pointed out that this
>>>>>>> is practically his only objection highlighted in VPP against all the
>>>>>>> commentaries, and that we could concentrate on resolving this issue. He had
>>>>>>> discussed this with others as well and agreed with me that we could just
>>>>>>> pursue this one issue further. Unfortunately the discussions could not be
>>>>>>> taken beyond a certain point to a logical conclusion as it was felt that
>>>>>>> face to face discussions were needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have tried several times to locate this in VPP, because the
>>>>>>> original Sanskrit version needs to be cited for any meaningful debate. But
>>>>>>> somehow it has been eluding me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel any headway is possible only if this one issue is resolved.
>>>>>>> Other issues are really secondary to this.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 9:36 AM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>>>>> Yes you are right. I had misunderstood Sri SSS' position.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sri Sudhanshu pointed me to the line in the kleshApahAriNi where
>>>>>>>> Sri SSS
>>>>>>>> says - न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते, येन
>>>>>>>> तदतिरेकेण
>>>>>>>> मिथ्याज्ञानम् एव अज्ञानम् इति आग्रहः स्यात्।
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So he seems to agree that there is a mithyAjnAna different to
>>>>>>>> ajnAna and
>>>>>>>> without ajnAna, mithyAjnAna cannot rise - but, presumably, he does
>>>>>>>> not wish
>>>>>>>> to go on to say ajnAna is the material cause of such a mithyAjnAna.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, this position that there is an avidyA different to mithyA
>>>>>>>> jnAna
>>>>>>>> does appear to contradict his position from the mUlAvidyA nirAsah
>>>>>>>> quoted by
>>>>>>>> Hacker: -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mitho viruddha svyabhavayor Atma anatmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the kleshApahAriNi, he takes the opposite position.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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