[Advaita-l] [advaitin] SSSS on the controversy between mulav7idya and abhavarupa - directly and simply explained as per SSSS

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Subbuji,
That is my understanding of Sri SSS' position vis a vis the adhyAsa bhAShya
- i.e. that adhyAsa is the same as avidyA.

However, in the kleshApahAriNi, he had said न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं
संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते, येन तदतिरेकेण मिथ्याज्ञानम् एव अज्ञानम् इति आग्रहः
स्यात्। Without ajnAna, mithyAjnAna (adhyAsa) or doubtful knowledge cannot
arise, for us to forcefully insist that mithyAjnAna itself is adhyAsa. This
seems to indicate that Sri SSS holds ajnAna to be different to mithyAjnAna.

This leads one to question whether there is a contradiction between the
interpretation of the adhyAsa bhAShya and the interpretation of the
naiShkarmya siddhi. Sri Chandramouli resolved the contradiction by saying
that ajnAna and avidyA are different according to Sri SSS.

That is, ajnAna which is abhAvarUpa, causes adhyAsa (avidyA) according to
Sri SSS. If this is his position, his text should have been called
mUlAjnAna nirAsah, not mUlAvidyA nirAsah - because as adhyAsa is the mUla
of all anartha, and he says adhyAsa = avidyA, he must necessarily accept
mUlAvidyA (i.e Atma-anAtma adhyAsa) so where is the question of its
nirAsah?

Secondly if he really holds adhyAsa = avidyA, he should have no problem
with an adhyasta ajnAna either. Because adhyAsa doesnt cause advaita hAni.
Both us and he agree with this. Therefore, if he holds adhyAsa  = avidyA,
let us take adhyasta ajnAna  = avidyA also, for the same reason that it is
adhyasta! Why differentiate between adhyasta ajnAna (ours) and adhyasta
avidyA (his)?

Regards,
Venkatraghavan







On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 6:00 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:

> This statement of the Adhyasa Bhashya is pramANa for them to hold 'as per
> Shankara, AdhyAsa is Avidya':
>
> तमेतमेवंलक्षणमध्यासं पण्डिता अविद्येति मन्यन्ते । तद्विवेकेन च
> वस्तुस्वरूपावधारणं विद्यामाहुः ।
>
> regards
> subbu
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:44 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat ji,
>> This is news to me. He doesn't accept a bhAvarupa ajnAna or bhAvarupA
>> avidyA.
>>
>> So in his system, surely abhAvarUpa ajnAna = abhAvarUpA avidyA?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Venkatraghavan QQ
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 17:10 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>
>>> Yes. Exactly. That is what I suspected. But preferred that you mention
>>> it yourself. He does differentiate differentiate avidyA and ajnAna !!! That
>>> is the whole issue we are talking about !!
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:32 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>> Yes, he has said adhyAsa originates from ajnAna. I shared the text a
>>>> couple of mails ago, but here it is again -  न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं
>>>> संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते.
>>>>
>>>> Don't tell me he differentiates avidyA and ajnAna!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:57 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not read Hacker. Hence I did not comment directly on his
>>>>> statement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Reg // Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA
>>>>> in the kleshApahAriNi //,
>>>>>
>>>>> Where exactly has he said this. Probably he has said adhyAsa
>>>>> originates from ajnAna ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 2:11 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>>> Doesn't Sri SSS admit that there is an avidyA that is the cause of
>>>>>> adhyAsa in the kleshApahAriNi whereas he holds that avidyA and adhyAsa are
>>>>>> identical in the mUlAvidyA nirAsah quote provided by Hacker? Is Hacker's
>>>>>> understanding of Sri SSS' position wrong ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See below - in what sense did Sri SSS mean this:
>>>>>> mitho viruddha svabhAvayor Atma anAtmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With respect to this:
>>>>>> // Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered to
>>>>>> pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa be
>>>>>> for a moment conceded to exist //.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sri SSS is willing to admit that adhyAsa originates from avidyA in
>>>>>> the kleshApahAriNi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Sri SSS is willing to accept that there is no harm to advaita due
>>>>>> to adhyAsa, why is there harm to advaita if there is an adhyasta avidyA -
>>>>>> because that is what we are talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The avidyA we are talking of is adhyasta, so it is subject to
>>>>>> adhyAsa. He himself concedes that adhyAsa originates from avidyA, which in
>>>>>> our conception is adhyasta - so adhyAsa (of mind ego etc) does originate
>>>>>> from adhyAsa of ignorance only. What is the problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no second anadhyasta entity for him to worry about. Whether
>>>>>> avidyA is abhAvarUpa or adhyasta, there is no harm to advaita.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024, 16:15 H S Chandramouli, <
>>>>>> hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don’t think Sri SSS takes any different position in KleshpahAriNi.
>>>>>>> His objection is for considering avidyA as kAraNa for adhyAsa. His position
>>>>>>> is that any bhAvarUpa avidyA, any such **positive** entity, as kAraNa for
>>>>>>> adhyAsa takes it outside the purview of adhyAsa. And this is advaitahAni.
>>>>>>> This is what is stated in the quote cited by Sudhanshu Ji
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> // *Vedanta which predicates the unity of Brahman will be shattered
>>>>>>> to pieces, if a second entity not subjected to or originating from adhyAsa
>>>>>>> be for a moment conceded to exist //.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is his consistent refrain in VPP. He brings out that this
>>>>>>> objection is valid in respect of practically all the commentaries like
>>>>>>> PanchapAdika, VivaraNa, Ishta Siddhi, Bhamati etc. In an earlier private
>>>>>>> discussion with an acknowledged authority on SSS works, who was very
>>>>>>> closely associated with the KAryAlaya as well, I had pointed out that this
>>>>>>> is practically his only objection highlighted in VPP against all the
>>>>>>> commentaries, and that we could concentrate on resolving this issue. He had
>>>>>>> discussed this with others as well and agreed with me that we could just
>>>>>>> pursue this one issue further. Unfortunately the discussions could not be
>>>>>>> taken beyond a certain point to a logical conclusion as it was felt that
>>>>>>> face to face discussions were needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have tried several times to locate this in VPP, because the
>>>>>>> original Sanskrit version needs to be cited for any meaningful debate. But
>>>>>>> somehow it has been eluding me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel any headway is possible only if this one issue is resolved.
>>>>>>> Other issues are really secondary to this.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 9:36 AM Venkatraghavan S via Advaita-l <
>>>>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>>>>>> Yes you are right. I had misunderstood Sri SSS' position.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sri Sudhanshu pointed me to the line in the kleshApahAriNi where
>>>>>>>> Sri SSS
>>>>>>>> says - न च अज्ञानं विना मिथ्याज्ञानं संशयज्ञानं वा समुपजायते, येन
>>>>>>>> तदतिरेकेण
>>>>>>>> मिथ्याज्ञानम् एव अज्ञानम् इति आग्रहः स्यात्।
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So he seems to agree that there is a mithyAjnAna different to
>>>>>>>> ajnAna and
>>>>>>>> without ajnAna, mithyAjnAna cannot rise - but, presumably, he does
>>>>>>>> not wish
>>>>>>>> to go on to say ajnAna is the material cause of such a mithyAjnAna.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, this position that there is an avidyA different to mithyA
>>>>>>>> jnAna
>>>>>>>> does appear to contradict his position from the mUlAvidyA nirAsah
>>>>>>>> quoted by
>>>>>>>> Hacker: -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mitho viruddha svyabhavayor Atma anatmanor yadanyonyatopAdAnam
>>>>>>>> anyonyadharmavattvena Akalanam ca tad etad Atmavido vyavaharanti
>>>>>>>> avidyeti.
>>>>>>>> amum eva adhyAsam avidyeti manyante tattvacintakAh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hacker says "Just as S, Subramanya identifies avidyA and adhyAsa".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the kleshApahAriNi, he takes the opposite position.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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