[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Re: Asked of Chatgpt: "Are there any definitions or descriptions that depict a positive ignorance in Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras or classic 10 Upanishads whether in context or otherwise?

[Sudhanshu Shekhar]

Namaste Bhaskar ji.

Sureshwara says in VArtika 1.4.371 -

अस्य द्वैतेन्द्रजालस्य यदुपादानकारणम् ।
अज्ञानं तदुपाश्रित्य ब्रह्म कारणमुच्यते ।

It states ajnAna as the upAdAna-kAraNa of magical duality.

The verse is so simple that it does not need any commentary to drive home
the meaning.

I don't know if you consider SAyaNa, who wrote the Rigveda bhAshya, as a
reliable person. But here is what he writes in NAsadIya SUkta bhAshya,
mantra 3:

आत्मतत्त्वस्य आवरकत्वात् माया-अपर-संज्ञं भावरूप-अज्ञानम् अत्र तम इति उच्यते।

Means:

Here(in mantra 3), bhAvarUpa ajnAna, which is another name of MAyA, is
stated here as tamas (darkness) on account of being the cover-or of
Atma-tattva.

On a personal note, this mantra 3 bhAshya and in fact NAsadIya sUkta
bhAshya in general -- when I read for the first time -- made me literally
tremble and shake. I used to hold then -- mAyA is different from ajnAna and
that ajnAna is abhAva. The bhAshya rejected both in an absolutely clear
manner.

Of course there are several arguments which conclusively prove bhAvarUpatva
of ajnAna, all based on ShAnkar bhAshya - the BBV shlokas and mantra 3
bhAshya say that in unambiguous manner.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

On Wed, 3 Jul, 2024, 12:12 Bhaskar YR, <bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com> wrote:

> praNAms Sri Michael Chandra Cohen prabhuji
>
> Hare Krishna
>
>
>
> Oh!! OK thanks for the clarification.  But I don’t know how far
> mUlAvidyAvAdins hold this AI’s observation is authentic and valid as they
> are mainly rely on later vyAkhyAnakAras’ and siddhikAra’s (Advaita siddhi
> by Sri Madhusudana Saraswati) explanations/clarifications with regard to
> this.  By the way, can we ask the questions like : as per the adhyAsa
> context explained in adhyAsa bhAshya during the flow of thoughts by this
> adhyAsa bhAshya writer, whether splitting the word ‘mithyAjnAna’  as
> mithya+ajnAna or mithyA+jnAna is more appropriate??  As we know how Sri SSS
> and bhAvarUpa avidyA vAdins split this compound word 😊 to drive home
> their respective points.
>
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>
> bhaskar
>
>
>
> *BHASKAR YR*
>
>
>
> *From:* advaitin at googlegroups.com <advaitin at googlegroups.com> *On Behalf
> Of *Michael Chandra Cohen
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 3, 2024 11:10 AM
> *To:* Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com>
> *Cc:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Advaitin <advaitin at googlegroups.com>;
> Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [advaitin] Re: Asked of Chatgpt: "Are there any definitions or
> descriptions that depict a positive ignorance in Sankara's commentary on
> the Brahma Sutras or classic 10 Upanishads whether in context or otherwise?
>
>
>
> *Warning*
>
>
>
> This email comes from outside of Hitachi Energy. Make sure you *verify
> the sender* before clicking any links or downloading/opening attachments.
> If this email looks suspicious, *report it* by clicking 'Report Phishing'
> button in Outlook.
> See the SecureWay group in Yammer for more security information.
>
> Chatgpt is Artificial Intelligence! It has consulted translations of
> Brahma Sutra and classic Upanishads although I have not asked for specific
> citations. Exhaustive citations for the Brahma Sutras support
> Chatgpt's findings can be found in the link below from Hacker's study in
> Halbfas, Philology and Confrontation, chapter 4
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pCvQ-Y36h3xqii-JlcMtJxiAdO1FOMIV/view?usp=sharing
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 7:25 AM Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com>
> wrote:
>
> praNAms
>
> Hare Krishna
>
>
>
> Sorry, please bear with my ignorance.  What is this Chatgpt??  Who
> answered these queries??  What is the background of the scholar who is
> answering this query?? BTW, the answers / clarifications provided below OK
> with me 😊 the quotes and references conspicuously missing the quote from
> adhyAsa bhAshya which is the main source to some to prove bhAvarUpa avidyA
> and which is the material cause for adhyAsa.
>
>
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
>
> bhaskar
>
>
>
> *BHASKAR YR*
>
>
>
> *From:* Michael Chandra Cohen <michaelchandra108 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 3, 2024 10:16 AM
> *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Advaitin <advaitin at googlegroups.com>
> *Cc:* Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>; Bhaskar YR <
> bhaskar.yr at hitachienergy.com>
> *Subject:* Asked of Chatgpt: "Are there any definitions or descriptions
> that depict a positive ignorance in Sankara's commentary on the Brahma
> Sutras or classic 10 Upanishads whether in context or otherwise?
>
>
>
> *Warning*
>
>
>
> This email comes from outside of Hitachi Energy. Make sure you *verify
> the sender* before clicking any links or downloading/opening attachments.
> If this email looks suspicious, *report it* by clicking 'Report Phishing'
> button in Outlook.
> See the SecureWay group in Yammer for more security information.
>
> Adi Shankaracharya's commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
> **classic Upanishads** are pivotal in understanding his view on **avidya**
> (ignorance). The notion of avidya as positive ignorance versus a mere
> absence of knowledge is a significant interpretative issue. To address your
> question, let's delve into the definitions and descriptions of avidya in
> Shankaracharya’s works, focusing on whether they depict avidya as a
> positive ignorance.
>
> ### Analysis of Avidya in Shankaracharya’s Commentaries
>
> #### **1. Brahma Sutras**
>
> **Brahma Sutras (Brahmasutras) Commentary:**
> - **Sutra 1.1.1**: The Brahma Sutras start with "Athato Brahma Jijnasa,"
> which translates to "Now, therefore, the inquiry into Brahman."
> Shankaracharya’s commentary here emphasizes the need to understand Brahman,
> the ultimate reality, and addresses the role of avidya in obscuring this
> knowledge.
> - **Role of Avidya**: In his commentary, Shankaracharya typically
> describes avidya in terms of its effects, such as causing mistaken identity
> and suffering, rather than as a positive entity. For example, he describes
> avidya as leading to the false perception of duality but does not always
> characterize it as an active, positive force.
> - **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the only
> reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth. The focus is on
> dispelling ignorance through knowledge rather than combating an independent
> force of ignorance.
>
> #### **2. Classic Upanishads**
>
> **Chandogya Upanishad Commentary:**
> - **Chapter 6, Section 1**: Shankaracharya explains the concept of avidya
> as the cause of mistaken identity. He describes how individuals mistake
> themselves for the body and mind rather than recognizing their true nature
> as Brahman.
> - **Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya’s commentary here does not
> typically depict avidya as an active, positive force but rather as the
> absence of knowledge about the true nature of the Self. The focus is on
> removing this ignorance to reveal the ever-present reality of Brahman.
>
> **Mandukya Upanishad Commentary:**
> - **The Three States**: In his commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad,
> Shankaracharya discusses the states of consciousness (waking, dreaming, and
> deep sleep) and the ultimate reality (Turiya). He uses the concept of
> avidya to explain how the Self is obscured in these states but does not
> present avidya as an active force.
> - **Avidya’s Role**: Avidya is discussed as the source of ignorance about
> the Self’s true nature, leading to the mistaken perception of the world.
> Again, the treatment focuses on the lack of knowledge rather than an
> independent force.
>
> **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Commentary:**
> - **Chapter 4, Section 3**: Shankaracharya discusses the nature of Brahman
> and how ignorance leads to misunderstanding. He describes avidya as
> obscuring the true knowledge of Brahman but does not elaborate it as a
> positive ignorance.
> - **Avidya’s Nature**: In this commentary, avidya is addressed as the lack
> of true knowledge, rather than as a positive entity causing illusions.
>
> ### Summary
>
> In Shankaracharya’s commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
> **classic Upanishads**, **avidya** is primarily described in terms of its
> effects—such as leading to mistaken identity and the perception of
> duality—rather than as a substantive, positive force. The general approach
> in these texts is to emphasize the removal of ignorance through direct
> knowledge of the Self (Atman) and Brahman.
>
> #### **Key Points:**
> - **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not typically
> define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he characterizes it
> more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman.
> - **Focus on Knowledge**: The primary solution offered in Shankaracharya’s
> commentaries is to gain true knowledge (atma-jnana) to dispel avidya, which
> aligns with the idea that avidya is not a positive ignorance but rather a
> lack of understanding.
>
> Thus, **Shankaracharya’s position**, based on the commentaries on these
> texts, supports the interpretation of avidya as an absence of knowledge
> rather than as a positive ignorance. This interpretation aligns with the
> perspective of Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati, who also emphasizes that
> avidya is best understood as the lack of true knowledge rather than an
> independently existing positive force.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAAz9PvGm%2BYemzRAyjAb89jNoi7m6nbGzsKUPV7LShJKsOqBHxg%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAAz9PvGm%2BYemzRAyjAb89jNoi7m6nbGzsKUPV7LShJKsOqBHxg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>