[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Asked of Chatgpt: "Are there any definitions or descriptions that depict a positive ignorance in Sankara's commentary on the Brahma Sutras or classic 10 Upanishads whether in context or otherwise?

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Michael Ji,

What an interpretation!!

//  1. **Veil as Lack of Knowledge:**
   - **Absence of True Knowledge:** In this interpretation, the "veil"
represents the absence of true knowledge. Just as a veil obstructs one's
vision, ignorance obstructs one's understanding of the true nature of the
self (Brahman). When the veil is removed, one sees clearly, implying that
when ignorance (lack of knowledge) is dispelled by knowledge, the true
nature of the self is revealed //,

**obstruction**, **removal of veil** clearly imply a **positive entity**.
They represent *positive* causes which *prevent* rise of **True
Knowledge**. It is not **absence of True Knowledge**. It is **prevention**
of True Knowledge. When it is destroyed, True Knowledrge automatically
arises.

There are any number of verses in BUBV, TUBV of Swami Sureswaracharya which
can be cited in support. But if we are not in agreement on this fundamental
understanding of what **absence** and **prevention** of True Knowledge
means, there is no purpose served in citing those verses.

Regards

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On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 1:54 PM Michael Chandra Cohen <
michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:

> yes, Chandramouli, I too questioned the term, 'veil' and Chatgpt answered
> concerned Suresvara's take on ignorance and the use of the term though the
> same applied to my earlier question of veil in Bhasyakara alone.
>
> The metaphor of ignorance as a "veil" can be interpreted in two different
> ways, which depend on the broader philosophical context in which the
> metaphor is used. Let's explore both interpretations, focusing on whether
> it indicates a positive ignorance or a lack of knowledge.
>
> ### Ignorance as a Veil
>
> 1. **Veil as Lack of Knowledge:**
>    - **Absence of True Knowledge:** In this interpretation, the "veil"
> represents the absence of true knowledge. Just as a veil obstructs one's
> vision, ignorance obstructs one's understanding of the true nature of the
> self (Brahman). When the veil is removed, one sees clearly, implying that
> when ignorance (lack of knowledge) is dispelled by knowledge, the true
> nature of the self is revealed.
>    - **Analogous to Darkness:** This view is analogous to darkness being
> dispelled by light. Darkness itself is not a positive entity; it is simply
> the absence of light. Similarly, ignorance is the absence of knowledge, and
> when knowledge is gained, ignorance disappears.
>
> 2. **Veil as Positive Ignorance:**
>    - **Substantive Obstruction:** In the positive ignorance
> interpretation, the veil could be seen as a substantive obstruction that
> actively hides the truth. This implies that ignorance is not just a passive
> absence of knowledge but a positive presence that creates false perceptions
> or superimpositions (adhyasa).
>    - **Misleading Influence:** Here, the veil (ignorance) has a misleading
> influence, causing one to perceive the non-self (anatman) as the self
> (atman), and to see duality where there is actually non-duality.
>
> ### Context in Suresvara's Writings
>
> To determine which interpretation aligns with Suresvara's views, let's
> consider his usage of the veil metaphor and his explicit statements about
> avidya in his works.
>
> #### Evidence from Suresvara's Works
>
> 1. **Naiskarmya Siddhi:**
>    - Suresvara often describes avidya in terms of a lack of discernment
> and knowledge, emphasizing the removal of ignorance through
> self-realization. For example, in *Naiskarmya Siddhi 1.43*: "The cessation
> of ignorance is brought about by the realization of the true nature of the
> self, just as darkness is dispelled by light."
>    - This suggests that he views ignorance as an absence of knowledge,
> akin to darkness being dispelled by light.
>
> 2. **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika:**
>    - Suresvara discusses the superimposition (adhyasa) caused by ignorance
> but focuses on the correction of this false perception through the
> acquisition of knowledge. In *Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Vartika 1.4.328*, he
> states: "Avidya is the ignorance that misidentifies the self with the
> non-self. It is dispelled by the knowledge of the self."
>    - Here, avidya is again presented as a lack of true knowledge,
> corrected by gaining the right understanding.
>
> 3. **Taittiriya Upanishad Vartika:**
>    - Suresvara uses the metaphor of light dispelling darkness to describe
> the role of knowledge in removing ignorance. For example, in *Taittiriya
> Upanishad Vartika 1.6.1*: "Avidya, the ignorance of the self, is dispelled
> by the light of knowledge, just as darkness is dispelled by the rising sun."
>    - This metaphor aligns with the interpretation of ignorance as a lack
> of knowledge.
>
> ### Conclusion
>
> Based on Suresvara's writings and his consistent use of metaphors and
> explanations, it is evident that:
>
> - **Ignorance as a Veil:** Suresvara's use of the veil metaphor indicates
> a lack of knowledge rather than a positive ignorance. The veil obstructs
> the true understanding, and its removal (through knowledge) reveals the
> true nature of the self.
> - **Lack of Knowledge:** Suresvara emphasizes that avidya is an absence of
> true knowledge about the self, which is dispelled by gaining
> self-knowledge. This is analogous to light dispelling darkness, where
> darkness (ignorance) is simply the absence of light (knowledge).
>
> Therefore, Suresvara views ignorance as a lack of knowledge, and the
> metaphor of a veil in his writings supports this interpretation.
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:08 AM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste.
>>
>> Reg  //  There are many others which can be interpreted to lead to the
>> same conclusion. However I am not reproducing those statements //,
>>
>> I mean that there are many others which can be interpreted to lead to the
>> conclusion that avidyA is a **positive entity**.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
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>>
>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 1:32 PM H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Michael Ji,
>>>
>>> Copying below a few statements from your post which directly contradict
>>> the conclusion. There are many others which can be interpreted to lead to
>>> the same conclusion. However I am not reproducing those statements.
>>>
>>> //   **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the
>>> only reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth  //.
>>>
>>> //   **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not
>>> typically define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he
>>> characterizes it more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman
>>> //.
>>>
>>> Notice the use of the word **veil**. Is **veil** an existent or a
>>> nonexistent? Those who present avidyA as a **positive entity** very often
>>> use the same term, namely **veil** , to convey the meaning that avidyA is a
>>> **positive entity**. I also follow the same.  How do you understand it?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 10:16 AM Michael Chandra Cohen <
>>> michaelchandra108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Adi Shankaracharya's commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
>>>> **classic Upanishads** are pivotal in understanding his view on **avidya**
>>>> (ignorance). The notion of avidya as positive ignorance versus a mere
>>>> absence of knowledge is a significant interpretative issue. To address your
>>>> question, let's delve into the definitions and descriptions of avidya in
>>>> Shankaracharya’s works, focusing on whether they depict avidya as a
>>>> positive ignorance.
>>>>
>>>> ### Analysis of Avidya in Shankaracharya’s Commentaries
>>>>
>>>> #### **1. Brahma Sutras**
>>>>
>>>> **Brahma Sutras (Brahmasutras) Commentary:**
>>>> - **Sutra 1.1.1**: The Brahma Sutras start with "Athato Brahma
>>>> Jijnasa," which translates to "Now, therefore, the inquiry into Brahman."
>>>> Shankaracharya’s commentary here emphasizes the need to understand Brahman,
>>>> the ultimate reality, and addresses the role of avidya in obscuring this
>>>> knowledge.
>>>> - **Role of Avidya**: In his commentary, Shankaracharya typically
>>>> describes avidya in terms of its effects, such as causing mistaken identity
>>>> and suffering, rather than as a positive entity. For example, he describes
>>>> avidya as leading to the false perception of duality but does not always
>>>> characterize it as an active, positive force.
>>>> - **Non-Duality**: Shankaracharya emphasizes that Brahman is the only
>>>> reality and avidya is simply the veil over this truth. The focus is on
>>>> dispelling ignorance through knowledge rather than combating an independent
>>>> force of ignorance.
>>>>
>>>> #### **2. Classic Upanishads**
>>>>
>>>> **Chandogya Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>> - **Chapter 6, Section 1**: Shankaracharya explains the concept of
>>>> avidya as the cause of mistaken identity. He describes how individuals
>>>> mistake themselves for the body and mind rather than recognizing their true
>>>> nature as Brahman.
>>>> - **Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya’s commentary here does not
>>>> typically depict avidya as an active, positive force but rather as the
>>>> absence of knowledge about the true nature of the Self. The focus is on
>>>> removing this ignorance to reveal the ever-present reality of Brahman.
>>>>
>>>> **Mandukya Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>> - **The Three States**: In his commentary on the Mandukya Upanishad,
>>>> Shankaracharya discusses the states of consciousness (waking, dreaming, and
>>>> deep sleep) and the ultimate reality (Turiya). He uses the concept of
>>>> avidya to explain how the Self is obscured in these states but does not
>>>> present avidya as an active force.
>>>> - **Avidya’s Role**: Avidya is discussed as the source of ignorance
>>>> about the Self’s true nature, leading to the mistaken perception of the
>>>> world. Again, the treatment focuses on the lack of knowledge rather than an
>>>> independent force.
>>>>
>>>> **Brhadaranyaka Upanishad Commentary:**
>>>> - **Chapter 4, Section 3**: Shankaracharya discusses the nature of
>>>> Brahman and how ignorance leads to misunderstanding. He describes avidya as
>>>> obscuring the true knowledge of Brahman but does not elaborate it as a
>>>> positive ignorance.
>>>> - **Avidya’s Nature**: In this commentary, avidya is addressed as the
>>>> lack of true knowledge, rather than as a positive entity causing illusions.
>>>>
>>>> ### Summary
>>>>
>>>> In Shankaracharya’s commentaries on the **Brahma Sutras** and the
>>>> **classic Upanishads**, **avidya** is primarily described in terms of its
>>>> effects—such as leading to mistaken identity and the perception of
>>>> duality—rather than as a substantive, positive force. The general approach
>>>> in these texts is to emphasize the removal of ignorance through direct
>>>> knowledge of the Self (Atman) and Brahman.
>>>>
>>>> #### **Key Points:**
>>>> - **Absence of Positive Ignorance**: Shankaracharya does not typically
>>>> define avidya as a positive, active force. Instead, he characterizes it
>>>> more as a lack or veil over the true knowledge of Brahman.
>>>> - **Focus on Knowledge**: The primary solution offered in
>>>> Shankaracharya’s commentaries is to gain true knowledge (atma-jnana) to
>>>> dispel avidya, which aligns with the idea that avidya is not a positive
>>>> ignorance but rather a lack of understanding.
>>>>
>>>> Thus, **Shankaracharya’s position**, based on the commentaries on these
>>>> texts, supports the interpretation of avidya as an absence of knowledge
>>>> rather than as a positive ignorance. This interpretation aligns with the
>>>> perspective of Swami Satchidanandendra Saraswati, who also emphasizes that
>>>> avidya is best understood as the lack of true knowledge rather than an
>>>> independently existing positive force.
>>>>
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>>>