[Advaita-l] [advaitin] 'The Jiva is Mithya' - an article in English

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Reg  // Can I ask how you took the text above to mean that the bimba and
pratibimba are in different loci? //,

Please refer to the talk by Sri MDS coverage of VPS, CD 9, Hrs 2-47
onwards.

Reg  // is it that Brahman and jIva must be understood to be in different
loci because the bimba and pratibimba are in different loci? //,

No. I am not sure if you have seen my earlier post where I have cited this
part of VPS. It is that Brahman and jIva are in same loci while object in
front of mirror and image are in different loci (as noted above).

Reg  // totally your prerogative //,

I just want to limit the scope of the discussion. I presume the above
clarifications would suffice.

Regards

On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 9:54 AM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Chandramouli ji
>
>
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2024, 11:54 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>
>> The view that ** the pratibimba itself is the bimba - ie they are
>> absolutely identical** does not affect my understanding in the current
>> context of how the word **abheda** needs to be understood in the context of
>> jIva Brahma Aikya vis-à-vis mirror-object reflection illustration. The two
>> can be identical, but if they are in different locations or loci, then
>> there is **bheda** between them to that extent.
>>
> I am not sure what you are suggesting here - is it that Brahman and jIva
> must be understood to be in different loci because the bimba and pratibimba
> are in different loci?
>
> This is stated in so many words in VivaraNa Prameya Samgraha itself which
>> I had cited earlier and copied below for immediate reference.
>>
>> Vivarana Prameya Samgraha  (edition with hindi commentary), page 214
>> states  //  ….दर्पणेन  चैकमेव मुखबिम्बप्रतिबिम्बरूपेण  विभज्यते …..//,
>>
>> // …..darpaNena  chaikameva mukhabimbapratibimbarUpeNa  vibhajyate….. //,
>>
>> Translation VPS (Prof Suryanarayana Shastri) page 129  // ……and by the
>> mirror the face which is but one is divided into prototype and reflection
>> ….//.
>>
> Can I ask how you took the text above to mean that the bimba and
> pratibimba are in different loci? Sure, the error is in assuming that the
> pratibimba is "in the mirror", but the bimba pratibimbavAda of the
> panchapAdikAkAra / vivaraNakAra does not admit that the pratibimba is,
> *in* *fact*, "in the mirror". Rather, it is the bimba itself that is seen
> as the pratibimba - meaning they are not in different loci.
>
> I have not checked in PanchapAdikA or VivaraNa separately. I have assumed
>> that VPS presents the views of these texts only even if Swami Vidyaranya
>> were to hold other views by himself.
>>
>> I am not going into debate over what the word **identical** means in the
>> context of this illustration. I am limiting myself to what the commentaries
>> state about **bheda** and **abheda** as between object and image , and how
>> they might be interpreted.
>>
> Again, I am not clear what you mean exactly by the above -  you do not
> want to debate the meaning of the word "identical", and that is fine and
> totally your prerogative, but then aren't you doing just that, when you are
> talking what the abheda between the object and image means in the
> commentaries, even if (I assume) you want to say that it does not mean
> "identical"?
>
> Kind regards,
> Venkatraghavan
>
> Regards
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 7:59 AM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>>>
>>> Re: "Hence the term **abheda** is intended to mean **indistinguishable**
>>> rather than **identical** when the loci are the same."
>>>
>>> The panchapAdikA (and vivaraNa) hold that the pratibimba itself is the
>>> bimba - ie they are absolutely identical. The abheda, in my understanding,
>>> is in the identical sense only.
>>>
>>> The error is in the notion that the pratibimba is "*in the mirror"*. So
>>> the adhyAsa in the case of the pratibimba bhrama is a samsarga adhyAsa, not
>>> a svarUpa adhyAsa, in their view.
>>>
>>> In this sense (because they hold that the pratibimba is the bimba
>>> itself) they are pratibimba-satyatva-vAdins. The prakriyA is that the
>>> chakshu indriya rays emerge from the eyes, hit the mirror, are reflected
>>> back on to the face, and in this sense the eyes "see" the face as a
>>> reflection. The pratibimba is not an atirikta padArtha (a separate entity)
>>> to the bimba here. The siddhAnta lesha sangraha portion quoted by one of
>>> the posters in this thread describes this further.
>>>
>>> VidyAraNya svAmi etc hold that the pratibimba is mithyA, ie it is
>>> different to the bimba - it is in atirikta padArtha that is created at the
>>> time of its perception.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>> On Sat, 23 Nov 2024, 10:11 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Namaste.
>>>>
>>>> My post was rejected . Hence resending
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 7:16 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [advaitin] 'The Jiva is Mithya' - an article in English
>>>> To: <advaitin at googlegroups.com>
>>>> Cc: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Namaste.
>>>>
>>>> I had mentioned in my earlier post that the term **abheda** concerning
>>>> Bimba (Object) and Pratibimba (Image) mentioned in the Advaita Siddhi quote
>>>> is in the context of jIva Brahma Aikya wherein the two are in the same
>>>> loci. All the subsequent quotes in this regard from other texts like
>>>> SiddhAnta Bindu etc are also in the same context. None of them is in the
>>>> context of reflection in a mirror and an object placed in front. On the
>>>> other hand I had also cited a quote from VivaraNa Prameya Samgraha wherein
>>>> the **bheda** between the two was specifically stated in respect of this
>>>> illustration of mirror and an object placed in front. In this illustration
>>>> the loci of the two are different.
>>>>
>>>> The difference between the two illustrations is the
>>>> spacing/separation/gap  between the object and its image. Where the loci
>>>> are the same, the spacing is literally nil. It is like a very thin film
>>>> pasted on a mirror. The film and its image would be practically
>>>> indistinguishable. While in the other instance the spacing is
>>>> significant/noticeable. Hence the term **abheda** is intended to mean
>>>> **indistinguishable** rather than **identical** when the loci are the same.
>>>> The Object and its Image are literally fused together.
>>>>
>>>> That is exactly the position in respect of jIva Brahma Ailya. Brahman
>>>> being all pervasive, the gap between **It**  and its **Image** (figurative
>>>> usage) is negligible. They are in the same loci. Hence the two are to be
>>>> understood as **indistinguishable** and not **identical** in the Advaita
>>>> Siddhi quote as well as other quotes in the same context wherein the word
>>>> **abheda** is used.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdM2MD0sgkg%3D6E5Wj8KUZcD-C%2BhJd%3Dtrh1L9cMFj9BckYA%40mail.gmail.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdM2MD0sgkg%3D6E5Wj8KUZcD-C%2BhJd%3Dtrh1L9cMFj9BckYA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEkf31f%3DJ59X4groDvS2VVgFLV3sxzfxbtCapNZJzS3_-A%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aEkf31f%3DJ59X4groDvS2VVgFLV3sxzfxbtCapNZJzS3_-A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>>