[Advaita-l] Fwd: anumAna-pramANa

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste. Resending as earlier post was held up.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] anumAna-pramANa
To: Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
Cc: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com>


Namaste Sushanshu Ji,

Can you please clarify the following.

In the specific illustration of  fire on the mountain, what is the
**vyApti-jnAna
= karaNa** as per VP?.

As per vivaraNa or VivaraNa UpanyAsa, what is the karaNa?

Regards


On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 11:02 AM Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhanshu.iitk at gmail.com>
wrote:

> *Namaste Raghav ji.* *Chandramouli ji*
>
> //vyApti-jnAna-smRti (which is a vRtti which arises in the present moment)
> cannot arise simultaneously with the linga-darshana-jnAnam since it implies
> jnAna-dvaya-yaugapad-upalabdhi (two jnAna-s arising at the same time).//
>
> Certainly.
>
> //This no doubt clinches the issue in favor of vivaraNa, i.e., the
> saMskAra of the vyApti-jnAnam being the karaNa rather than the smRti of
> vyApti-jnAnam as said by VP.//
>
> I would like to state here that VedAnta ParibhAshA does not say that
> smriti of vyApti-jnAna i.e. vyApti-smriti is the karaNa. The view of the
> VP is that vyApti-jnAna is karaNa. The generation of vyApti-smriti from
> the vyApti-samskAra is denied both by VivaraNa and VP. There is no
> difference between VP and VivaraNa in so far as the mechanics of generation
> of anumiti-pramA is concerned. Both deny vyApti-smriti and parAmarsha. The
> distinction is only in ascription of karaNatva of anumiti-pramA.
>
>
> Let us revise some fundamental concepts here:
>
> karaNa is defined as व्यापारवद् असाधारण-कारणं करणम्. So, for karaNa, two
> conditions need to be satisfied. It should be asAdhAraNa-kAraNa and it
> should possess something called vyApAra.
>
> What exactly is this vyApAra!
>
> Here, vyApAra is defined as तज्जन्यत्वे सति तज्जन्यजनको व्यापारः. That
> means, vyApAra is something:
>
>    1.
>
>    which is born from karaNa; and
>    2.
>
>    Which is also the producer of something, which is born from karaNa
>    (i.e. kArya)
>
>
> So, vyApAra is something which is produced from karaNa and which also
> produces kArya (along with karaNa). So, both vyApAra and kArya are produced
> by karaNa. kArya is also produced by vyApAra.
>
> Let’s take for example the creation of pot. Here, we need many things,
> clay, stick, potter, space, time, light etc. So, all of these are kAraNa.
> However, space, time, light etc are sAdhAraNa-kAraNa. Hence, these cannot
> be karaNa as these are not asAdhAraNa-kAraNa.
>
> Clay, stick, potter are asAdhAraNa-kAraNa for pot. However, karaNa will be
> only that which also possesses vyApAra.
>
> Now, let us appreciate that neither potter, nor clay nor stick can produce
> a pot unless the stick is in motion. Here, the motion (of stick) -- is born
> from stick and also, motion (of stick) is the producer of pot. So, motion
> (of stick) is vyApAra.
>
> Since this motion belongs to stick, it is the stick which is व्यापारवद्
> असाधारण-कारण and is hence called karaNa.
>
> In VedAnta-ParibhAshA scheme of articulation,
>
> vyApti-jnAna = karaNa.
>
> vyApti-jnAna-janya-samskAra = vyApAra
>
> vyApti-jnAna-janya-samskAra-udbodha = sahakArI-kAraNa
>
> Please see that the vyApti-jnAna-janya-samskAra is produced from
> vyApti-jnAna and it also produces anumiti-pramA (kArya of vyApti-jnAna).
> Hence, it is logical for VP to aver that vyApti-jnAna-janya-samskAra is
> vyApAra.
>
> Please note that vyApti-smriti does not produce samskAra. Hence,
> vyApti-smriti cannot be karaNa.
>
> So, VedAnta ParibhAshA accepts vyApti-jnAna as karaNa and
> vyApti-jnAna-janya-samskAra as vyApAra.
>
>
> In the scheme of VP and VivaraNa, the mechanics of anumiti-pramA is same:
>
> 1st moment - paksha-dharmatA-jnAna [the hill is with smoke -- this
> knowledge]
>
>
> 2nd moment - vyApti-jnAna-janya-samskAra-udbodha.
>
>
> 3rd moment - anumiti-pramA.
>
> There is no vyApti-smriti. There is no parAmarsha.
>
> The VedAnta ParibhAshA and VivaraNa have differing views only in the
> ascription of karaNatva to vyApti-jnAna.
>
> //But even in vivaraNa scheme, the saMskAra is not by itself the karaNa,
> rather there is a connection with the linga-darshana viz , the linga
> Darshanam does do something called "vyApti-saMskAra-udbodhanaM".//
>
> The two “linga-jnAna” and “samskAra” couple together to produce
> anumiti-pramA. So, both of  them would be kAraNa. In fact, both are
> asAdhAraNa-kAraNa. However, what would be karaNa would be decided by which
> one has vyApAra.
>
> //Although this "udbodhana" is neither vyApti-jnAna smRti nor is the
> saMskAra itself sufficient because one particular saMskAra has to be
> "awakened".
>
> (Otherwise either all or no saMskAras will also get connected ).//
>
> We need to ascertain as to what exactly is vyApAra in the VivaraNa scheme
> of things.
>
> *Namaste Chandramouli ji.*
>
> "VyApti-jnAtvena vyApti-jnAna" being stated as anumiti-karaNa is well
> understood. That is not the point of distinction here which is being
> discussed.
>
> I request you to refer to page 78 of VivaraNa-upanyAsa by DakshiNAmUrti
> MaTh, which says the following:
>
> ‘पञ्चपादिका में स्पष्ट कहा है “लिङ्गज्ञानसंस्कारयोः सम्भूय
> लिङ्गिज्ञानोत्पादनम्….लिङ्गदर्शनमेव सम्बन्धज्ञानसंस्कारमुद्बोध्य तत्सहितं
> लिङ्गिज्ञानं जनयति” तथा “लिङ्गादीनामेव कुतश्चित् सम्बन्धविशेषाद्
> विशिष्टैकार्थज्ञानहेतुत्वात्”। *अतः वेदान्तपरिभाषा का “अनुमितिकरणं च
> व्याप्तिज्ञानम्” यह कथन विवरणानुसारी नहीं है*।
>
>
> Similarly, the VedAnta ParibhAshA commentary by PanchAnana BhattAchArya ji
> at page 118 may be referred to which says the following:
>
>
> *वस्तुतस्तु व्याप्तिज्ञानं नैव अनुमितिकरणं, अनुमिति-अकारणत्वात्*... He
> goes on to mention VivaraNa and PanchapAdikA references to explain. Also, I
> fail to understand as to how vyApti-jnAna can be karaNa when it is not at
> all present at the time of anumiti-pramA. It is a thing of past. It has no
> connection with anumiti-pramA. anumiti-pramA is being generated by samskAra
> and linga-darshana. vyApti-jnAna is not at all present here. So, how can it
> be karaNa!!
>
>
> Regards.
>
> Sudhanshu Shekhar.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 9:56 PM H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <advaita-
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>