[Advaita-l] [advaitin] Kilogram concluded

[H S Chandramouli]

Namaste Venkat Ji,

Oh. Fine then. Thanks. I must have evidently misread your statement.

Regards

On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 6:29 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com> wrote:

> Namaste Chandramouliji,
>
> I am not sure how what you have written is different to what I have.
> Proving that prAgabhAva is of the nature of existence, ie have
> bhAvAtmakatA, is refuting prAgabhAva.
>
> Regards
> Venkatraghavan
>
>
> On Tue, 3 Sept 2024, 20:45 H S Chandramouli, <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Namaste Venkat Ji,
>>
>> Reg  // To this, Shankaracharya establishes the causal state of the
>> world prior to its creation by stating that prAgabhAva , prior absence too
>> is *of* the nature of some existence (not the paramArtha sat of Brahman,
>> not the vyAkRta form of existence that is present post its creation, but
>> some subtle form of existence //,
>>
>> My understanding is slightly different. The Bhashya follows the same
>> approach as stated in BSB BSB 2-2-11  // *इममभ्युपगमं   *तदीययैव प्रक्रियया
>> व्यभिचारयति //
>>
>> // By following this line of argument of the atomists (VaisheshikAs)
>> themselves, the aphorist shows that such a postulate is not invariably true
>> //.
>>
>> Bhashya follows the line of argument of the naiyyAyika himself and
>> refutes his stand. Advaita SiddhAnta does not admit of some existence to
>> prAgabhAva.
>>
>> This is in accordance with the talk on this part of the Bhashya by Sri
>> MDS.
>>
>> As per Advaita SiddhAnta, abhAva is vikalpa only. A few citations below.
>>
>> TUB , Sambandha Bhashya // प्रध्वंसाभावोऽप्यारभ्यत इति न सम्भवति अभावस्य
>> विशेषाभावाद्विकल्पमात्रमेतत् । भावप्रतियोगी ह्यभावः ।//
>>
>> BUB 2-2-26  //  ‘नासतोऽदृष्टत्वात्’ इति । नाभावाद्भाव उत्पद्यते । //
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 3, 2024 at 5:36 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Dennis ji,
>>>
>>> I am afraid in the section of the bhAShya that is under discussion, the
>>> opponent is not the kshaNikavijnAnavAdin (the momentary consciousness
>>> school), but the naiyyAyika, the logician.
>>>
>>> If you recall, the raison d'etre of the entire ghaTabhAShya is the
>>> establishment of satkAryavAda - to justify the upaniShadic statement नैवेह
>>> किञ्चनाग्र आसीन्मृत्युनैवेदमावृतमासीत् - "In the beginning there was
>>> nothing whatsoever here, only death existed, enveloping all this".
>>>
>>> The logician's contention is that the world (the effect) did not exist
>>> prior to its creation - i.e. his position is one of asatkAryavAda. In his
>>> view, there was the world's prior absence, prAgabhAva then - and not the
>>> world itself in a subtle state, as argued by the satkAryavAdin.
>>>
>>> To this, Shankaracharya establishes the causal state of the world prior
>>> to its creation by stating that prAgabhAva , prior absence too is not the
>>> nature of some existence (not the paramArtha sat of Brahman, not the
>>> vyAkRta form of existence that is present post its creation, but some
>>> subtle form of existence. To do this, he uses the principle of induction,
>>> thus -
>>>
>>> 1) anyonyAbhAva, is one of the four types of absence admitted by the
>>> naiyyAyika.
>>> 2) anyonyAbhAva is of the nature of some existence - the pot which is
>>> different to the cloth, is an existent entity different to it.
>>> 3) therefore, prAgabhAva and the two other forms of absence, are also of
>>> the nature of some existence, different in some form to the entity - like
>>> in the case of anyonyAbhAva.
>>> 4) that being the case, the world too had some existence prior to its
>>> creation.
>>>
>>> Yes, there is a discussion refuting the kshaNikavijnAnavAdin, which
>>> commences with the words सादृश्यादन्वयदर्शनम् , न कारणानुवृत्तेरिति चेत्
>>> and goes on until अतः सिद्धः प्राक्कार्योत्पत्तेः कारणसद्भावः ॥ The object
>>> of discussion is the existence of the cause prior to the creation of the
>>> effect - which the shUnyavAdin (nihilist) and the kshaNikavijnAnavAdin
>>> (momentary consciousness school) reject. ie between the portions of the
>>> bhAShya quoted above, the topic is the existence of the kAraNa -
>>> satkAraNavAda - against opponents who hold the opposite view -
>>> asatkAraNavAda.
>>>
>>> Whereas the discussion that is the subject matter here is not one of the
>>> prior existence of the *cause* (which is denied by the vijnAnavAdin,
>>> but accepted by the naiyyAyika), but the prior existence of the* effect* -
>>> which is denied by the naiyyAyika. Therefore, what Shankaracharya chooses
>>> to do is use the naiyyAyika's own terms (prAgabhAva etc) and methodology
>>> (anumAna) against him to show that even he has to admit the error of his
>>> position.
>>>
>>> Perhaps we are complicating matters, but it is in trying to follow the
>>> flow of the bhAShya. You too will have to justify the reason why the
>>> bhAShya flows in the sequence of topics that it does. If not to us, at
>>> least to yourself.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Venkatraghavan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 3 Sept 2024, 16:05 , <dwaite at advaita.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have investigated and thought about this for another couple of days.
>>>> I will put together an essay covering my understanding of the entire topic
>>>> for the book I am currently writing; but I will post this to Advaita
>>>> Vision. The essay will probably be fairly long and in two or three parts
>>>> for the blog, so it will be several weeks before the complete material is
>>>> available – I will then post the link.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, here is (what may well be) the essence of my conclusion:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This section (Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad Bhāṣya 1.2.1) from Śaṅkara is not
>>>> concerned with providing a roundabout argument for the positive existence
>>>> of ‘ignorance’, via the route of demonstrating that ‘darkness’ is a
>>>> positively existing thing. On the contrary, he is just using his
>>>> exceptional logical skills to demonstrate that the notion of ‘momentary
>>>> consciousness’ promulgated by the Yogācāra Buddhists is incoherent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If it makes sense to us to think about the existence of an actual thing
>>>> like a pot before it has been made or after it has been smashed, then there
>>>> must be a persistence of consciousness over time. The physical pot may well
>>>> exist only for a short time but the word ‘pot’ and our ‘fore-knowledge’ and
>>>> ‘after-knowledge’ of that particular pot are not restricted by the time
>>>> period. Therefore Kṣaṇika-vāda must be false.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ‘Darkness’ and ‘ignorance’ do not enter the equation. As usual, it is
>>>> the post-Shankarans who complicate the issue!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/000f01dafdd8%2416329d30%244297d790%24%40advaita.org.uk
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/000f01dafdd8%2416329d30%244297d790%24%40advaita.org.uk?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "advaitin" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aE%3DB-%3DMdVVpb0XTpKWqFMz6LmviLSHPZ-BLdVrA0V-Qo%2BA%40mail.gmail.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aE%3DB-%3DMdVVpb0XTpKWqFMz6LmviLSHPZ-BLdVrA0V-Qo%2BA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "advaitin" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdM6wShVFO%3DPWypXK1wDSbJWutQocTmxq3h%2Bd7taGZ79EA%40mail.gmail.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAEs%2B%2BdM6wShVFO%3DPWypXK1wDSbJWutQocTmxq3h%2Bd7taGZ79EA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>> .
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "advaitin" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to advaitin+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aE%3DjN8UY2ttLwGfgYp5ZZTHynyfx91VKEVyD6tudAP30_Q%40mail.gmail.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/CAL34aE%3DjN8UY2ttLwGfgYp5ZZTHynyfx91VKEVyD6tudAP30_Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
>