[Advaita-l] Fwd: Dependant existence

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste Subbuji,
Yes indeed. In essence it appears to me that the vAcArambhaNam vikAro
nAmadheyam of the ChAndogya and yato vAco nivartante of taittirIya are
mirror images of each other. The ChAndogya shruti is the anvaya to the
taittirIya's vyatireka.

Everything within the sphere of speech is anAtma, mithyA. That denoted by
the absence of words, silence is Atma. The Bashkala- Badhva episode nicely
encapaulates this.

Reminds me of a quote attributed to HH Jagadguru Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha
mahAsvAminah about the Atma being revealed clearly in the "gap between
thoughts". Dont remember the exact words, I am paraphrasing.

Regards
Venkatraghavan


On Mon, 13 Oct 2025, 01:44 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, Oct 12, 2025 at 11:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Dependant existence
> To: Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> Cc: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
>
> Dear Venkat ji,
>
> That is an awesome observation that you make. The *wrong references* to the
> Cause as the truly non-existent effects - vācārambhaṇam vikāro nāmadheyam -
> underlies this idea that you propose.  The *abhidhāna *(name) that Shankara
> says in that Chandogya cited bhashya and the buddhi that such name produces
> are dropped when the truth is known. The final takeaway is: words (vācaḥ)
> and buddhi (manas) can't be applied to (nivartante) Brahman. As Shankara
> cites a conversation in the BSB 3.2.17:  And there is this pleasant
> surprise to us:  when I looked up the bhashya to copy the
> *उपशान्तोऽयमात्मा,* there Bhagavatpada cites the very passage you came up
> with *:  *
>
> दर्शयति च श्रुतिः पररूपप्रतिषेधेनैव ब्रह्म — निर्विशेषत्वात् — ‘अथात आदेशो
> नेति नेति’ (बृ. उ. २ । ३ । ६)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Brha/devanagari?page=2&id=BR_C02_S03_V06&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%20%E0%A4%86%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BF
> >
>  ‘अन्यदेव तद्विदितादथो अविदितादधि’ (के. उ. १ । ४)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Kena_pada/devanagari?page=1&id=KP_C01_V04&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B5%20%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%A5%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%A7%E0%A4%BF
> >
>  ‘*यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह’* (तै. उ. २ । ४ । १)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Taitiriya/devanagari?page=2&id=T_C02_S04_V01&hl=%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B9
> >
> इत्येवमाद्या ।
> बाष्कलिना च बाध्वः पृष्टः सन् अवचनेनैव ब्रह्म प्रोवाचेति श्रूयते — ‘स
> होवाचाधीहि भो इति स तूष्णीं बभूव तं ह द्वितीये तृतीये वा वचन उवाच ब्रूमः
> खलु त्वं तु न विजानासि । *उपशान्तोऽयमात्मा*’ इति । तथा स्मृतिष्वपि
> परप्रतिषेधेनैवोपदिश्यते — ‘ज्ञेयं यत्तत्प्रवक्ष्यामि
> यज्ज्ञात्वामृतमश्नुते । अनादिमत्परं ब्रह्म न सत्तन्नासदुच्यते’ (भ. गी. १३ ।
> १२)
> <
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Gita/devanagari?page=13&id=BG_C13_V12&hl=%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9E%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B7%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%BF%20%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9C%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%9E%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%B6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%C2%A0%E0%A5%A4%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%B9%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE%20%E0%A4%A8%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87
> >
> इत्येवमाद्यासु ।
> तथा विश्वरूपधरो नारायणो नारदमुवाचेति स्मर्यते — ‘माया ह्येषा मया सृष्टा
> यन्मां पश्यसि नारद ।’ (म. भा. १२ । ३३९ । ४५) ‘सर्वभूतगुणैर्युक्तं नैवं मां
> ज्ञातुमर्हसि’ (म. भा. १२ । ३३९ । ४६) इति ॥ १७ ॥
>
> warm regards
> subbu
>
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2025 at 7:06 PM Venkatraghavan S <agnimile at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Namaste Subbuji,
> > Re - "रज्जुविवेकदर्शिनां तु सर्पाभिधानबुद्धी निवर्तेते, यथा च
> > मृद्विवेकदर्शिनां घटादिशब्दबुद्धी, तद्वत्
> > सद्विवेकदर्शिनामन्यविकारशब्दबुद्धी निवर्तेते — ‘यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते ।"
> >
> > Very unique application of the famous yato vAco nivartante mantra from
> the
> > taittirIya upaniShad, into this context. Essentially Shankaracharya seems
> > to be interpreting the mantra as "yatah = because of which, vAcah =
> > (erroneous) words, nivartante = cease".
> >
> > Due to avidyA, sat is referred to erroneously as the objects of the
> world,
> > and with sat viveka, those erroneous references to sat as other effects
> > cease. yato vAco nivartante.
> >
> > If I am understanding this correct, it is a unique explanation of the
> > mantra I haven't encountered elsewhere.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Venkatraghavan
> >
> > On Sun, 12 Oct 2025, 18:26 V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Oct 12, 2025 at 3:46 PM Krishnaprakasha Bolumbu via Advaita-l <
> >> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hari Om|
> >> >
> >> > This is my understanding of the subject matter of Advaita
> >> >
> >> > “Dvaita rejects the *mithyātva* of the pot and affirms its objective
> >> > reality. Advaita, however, does not call the pot *mithyā* in an
> illusory
> >> > sense but regards its existence as *non-independent* — the pot has no
> >> > reality apart from its constituents. In other words, Advaita denies
> that
> >> > there can be a pot distinct from its material cause; its reality is
> >> > conditional and borrowed from the underlying substratum
> (clay/Brahman).”
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yes, true.  But such a dependent existence itself also makes the
> 'effect'
> >> mithya.  In the rope-snake analogy, the snake imagined there has no
> >> 'isness' apart from the rope there.  In other words the person in
> delusion
> >> should have said 'there is a rope', but due to some defects, he says
> >> 'there
> >> is a snake.'  He is actually unknowingly transferring the rope-isness to
> >> the snake.
> >>
> >> Shankara gives the rope-snake analogy while explaining the clay-pot
> >> analogy
> >> in the Chandogya Upanishad:  6.2.3"
> >>
> >> सदेव तु सर्वमभिधानमभिधीयते च यदन्यबुद्ध्या, यथा रज्जुरेव सर्पबुद्ध्या
> सर्प
> >> इत्यभिधीयते, यथा वा पिण्डघटादि मृदोऽन्यबुद्ध्या पिण्डघटादिशब्देनाभिधीयते
> >> लोके । रज्जुविवेकदर्शिनां तु सर्पाभिधानबुद्धी निवर्तेते, यथा च
> >> मृद्विवेकदर्शिनां घटादिशब्दबुद्धी, तद्वत्
> >> सद्विवेकदर्शिनामन्यविकारशब्दबुद्धी निवर्तेते — ‘यतो वाचो निवर्तन्ते ।
> >> अप्राप्य मनसा सह’ (तै. उ. २ । ९ । १)
> >> <
> >>
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Taitiriya/devanagari?page=2&id=T_C02_S09_V01&hl=%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9A%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%C2%A0%E0%A5%A4%20%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%20%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%BE%20%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%B9
> >> >
> >>  इति, ‘अनिरुक्तेऽनिलयने’ (तै. उ. २ । ७ । १)
> >> <
> >>
> https://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/display/bhashya/Taitiriya/devanagari?page=2&id=T_C02_S07_V01&hl=%E0%A4%85%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%BD%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%87
> >> >
> >>  इत्यादिश्रुतिभ्यः ।
> >>
> >> Sat, Existence, Brahman, the Cause, alone appears as the whole universe,
> >> the effect.  Just like the clay lump and pot, etc. are in truth clay
> >> alone...Upon realizing the rope, the snake perception goes, so too upon
> >> the
> >> clay realization the clay-lump, pot, etc. perception is known to be
> >> mithya,
> >> so too when Sat is realized the the effect-world-is-real perception
> goes.
> >>
> >> warm regards
> >> subbu
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Regards
> >> >
> >> > Kp
> >> > _______________________________________________
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