Consciousness

[Giri]

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, sadananda wrote:

> >Giri wrote:
> >>. The Menninger foundation which conducts a lot of experiments in this
> >> area says that proving the dependence of consciousness and the central
> >> nervous system is crucial.

> Consciousness is not some object to depend on any thing!  In all the
> experiments it is the experimenter that is the conscious entity.  Any proof
> that excludes the subject, is no experiment to prove or disprove
> consciousness.  All proofs and dis-proves depend on the preexistence  of
> conscious entity - then what is there to prove or disprove.

        Please read my sentence again. I was saying experiments to prove
the dependence (or independence) of consciousness on the central nervous
system are essential. NOT the existence of consciousness itself.

> Consciousness is neither dependent nor independent of nervous system.

        Not according to everyone. Let us look at 'The riddle of the
universe' and also 'outline of great books'. Heinrich Haeckel writes,

'Personally, I admit consciousness wherever there is a centralized
nervous system...Recent research has shown that the development of
consciousness in man is connected with the greater size and complexity
of the rind of grey nerve matter which covers the brain..When we further
study the effect on mind of disease of the brain, or narcotics, and
anaesthetics, we are forced to conclude that consciousness is no more
than a function of the brain.'

> Hence consciousness is there all the time - turiya state is not some state
> different from all the three states.

        Ok, let us take that statement.  Do you think a state in which the
body, nervous system, brain are completely relaxed and "asleep" while you
are completely conscious of your surroundings ? Swami Rama was able to prove
that this is possible, much to the amazement of western psychologists.

> All that the experiments and the
> alpha waves prove is that the mental vritties are at their minimum as it
> will be when the thoughts cease.
> That does not prove or disprove consciousness.

        There are no discussion ever of proving or disproving consciousness.

>From the yoga and psychotherapy 'Yoga nidram is a deep meditative state,
which approaches turiya...In this state, yogis claim that the mind does
not need to express itself at all through the use of the brain. The mind
or, more correctly, consciousness is withdrawn delibrately from the
functions of the central nervous system. Though this may sound
preposterous from the perspective of current western ideas, in eastern
psychology the mind and brain are seen as totally different and are
clearly distinguished from one another. The mind controls the brain. The
brain is a physical instrument of the thoughts, emotions and desires....'
        Swami Akhilananda in 'hindu psychology' says 'It is true that the
mind usually functions in ordinary persons through the nervous sytem and
brain cells, just as electiricty functions and is manifested through
wires and electrical apparatus. Yet one cannot conclude that the
electricity and the wires are identical. Similarly, the mind in its
functions, conscious or otherwise, cannot be identified with the
instruments through which it works or has expression'
        Quoting this, Swami Rama continues 'This writing from the point
of view of Indian psychology maintains that in the superconcious state,
the mind can function without the help of the nervous system. Though this
is clearly at variance with presently accepted notions of mind-body
interaction, its implications bear examining....'
        In our discussion in SRH, Rama (rbalasub@) made an excellent point
that proving such things experimentally are only necessary for people who
don't believe in sages, seers but believe in science. Since none of the
members of this list belong to this group, this will be last post on this
subject. Namaste.