tarka et. al.

[Anand Hudli]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:35:33 -0600, Ravi <msr at COMCO.COM> wrote:

>
>Abstract logic may not be adequate for establishing mithyatva. If
>so are the other schools of vedanta clueless?
>
>Please do correct me.
>
>Ravi

 If you mean by "abstract logic", logic independent of shruti, you are
 right. But if you mean logic even when it is used as an aid to
 ascertain the meaning of shruti and so that it supports the shruti,
 then your position is directly opposed to every advaitin in the line of
 Shankara worth his salt, including Shankara himself.  Shankara,
 as Subhanu rightly pointed out, points out that "tarka" that is not
 opposed to shruti is used in ascertaining the meaning of shruti.

 shriharshha, the famous author of the dialectical work KhaNDana-KhaNDa-
 khAdya, says that his work is meant for two purposes 1) to be used in
 manana by the renunciates, the sannyAsins, and 2) to be used by others
 for convincing or gaining victory over opposing views. See the shAN^karI
 commentary on the "khaNDana" of shriharshha, verse 3:

 vItarAgANAmetadgranthapravR^ittaupayikaM mananalaxaNaM prayojanaM
 darshayitvA rAgiNAmapi vijigIshhUNAM vijayalaxaNaM prayojanamAha ...

 (shriharshha) says that this work also has as its chief aim victory
 (over opponents) for those with passion who are desirous of (such)
  victory, having shown that the chief aim is the "manana"
 (as in shravaNa-manana-nididhyAsana) for those without passion (the
 renunciates).

 The last point I want to make is that the revered Swamis of Sringeri
 have all been experts in tarka-shAstra. It is a well known fact that
 Shri Abhinava Vidya Teertha had an absolute mastery over tarka. And
 he started the training of the young Sri Sitarama Anjaneyalu
 (the present Swami of Sringeri, Shri Bharati Teertha), with the well
 known nyAya work of aNNaM-bhaTTa, the "tarka-saN^graha."

 To reiterate, it is not appropriate for an advaitin to indulge in
 "kutarka", logic that has nothing to do with shruti or that is not
 in line with the shruti. At the same time, it is quite inappropriate
 for an advaitin to give up tarka even while studying the shruti and
 ascertaining its meaning.

 Anand

--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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>From  Sat Feb 19 13:06:54 2000
Message-Id: <SAT.19.FEB.2000.130654.0600.>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:06:54 -0600
Reply-To: miinalochanii at yahoo.com
To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG>
From: Ravi Mayavaram <miinalochanii at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: tarka et. al.
Comments: To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at braincells.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Anand,

Thank you very much for patiently answering my questions.  I will try to
read your siddhi posts more carefully and get back to the list with
questions. I am still at post 8. I should say, it does make one think deeper
on that subject. In fact, I never noticed the subtle point that in a
snake-rope example,  that snake and rope are real by themselves.  Even
though the false relation is emphasized, the reality of the things compared
is  not stressed on. In fact I have some more questions, on post -8, but
I will try to resolve them by thinking deeply on it.

It is a very tough subject and I am grateful to you for spending your time
explaining it.

With respects,

Ravi
shrI vaidyanAtham sadA bhajeham

Anand Hudli wrote:



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>From  Sat Feb 19 13:45:17 2000
Message-Id: <SAT.19.FEB.2000.134517.0600.>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:45:17 -0600
Reply-To: miinalochanii at yahoo.com
To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at LISTS.ADVAITA-VEDANTA.ORG>
From: Ravi Mayavaram <miinalochanii at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Experiencing Aatman
Comments: To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
        <ADVAITA-L at braincells.com>
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elmec wrote:

> Re : Tarka and Shruthi
> And Ravi writes :
>
> ?No amount of logic can convince or disprove that sugar is
> sweet. One has to experience it??..?
>
> In Ravi?s example of experiencing the sweetness of the sugar, three
> things are involved. The pramaatru - ie, me , the Prameya - ie, the
> sweetness of sugar and the Pramaana - our taste buds. Agreed.
>
> But the experience of the Brahman/Aatman is not similar to this.
> Because, here, the Pramaatru, Prameya and Pramaana are all one. If as
> Anand says, we must have a direct experience of the dictum ? Tat Twam
> Asi ? it is not plausible, because then the experiencer has to be
> different from that which is experienced, which defeats the dictum !

A very valid point. I agree. The example I quote can not be extended
beyond duality. Your post has pointed out something important to
contemplate on. Thank you.


>
>
> Shankara in his Upadesha Saahasri ( Prakarana 18, shloka 210 ) clearly
> says :
>
> itOnyOnubhavah kashchiDatmanO nOpapadyate
> avijNatam vijAnatAm vijnAtAramiti shruteh
>
> One can not have any other experience called ? Aatmaanubhava ? other
> than this ( firm conviction ). One who says ? I have understood ? has
> not understood. How can he understand That by Which he understands
> everything - thus says Shruthi.
>
> VijnAtAramarE kEna vijAnIyAt  -  Bri 2-3-14

This list has not taken up discussion on upadesha saahasri yet. I  would
request you to take up a discussion on that subject. If you are willing,
probably you can discuss one or two verses a week and all of us will
benefit from your efforts. Complete text  in sanksrit is available from

http://sanskrit.gde.to/doc_z_misc_shankara/doc_z_misc_shankara.html


>
>
> I may have erred in many places in my enthusiasm to put forward my
> opinion. Kindly excuse. The new kind of notation which you all use
> while quoting Sanskrit shlokas in English is new to me and I may have
> committed mistakes. Kindly correct me.
>

There are many transliteration schemes. One used by Vidyasankar in his
WWW page is a simple one to use.  That should be fine for the list. But
I do not know whether there is a software to convert it to Sanskrit
fonts. The one suggested by ITRANS is a  popular one. But you can use
what you are comfortable with.

Here is ITRANS coding scheme:

http://www.aczone.com/itrans/tblall/tblall.html
--------------

ITRANS 5.2 Encoding for Devanagari (Hindi/Marathi/Sanskrit)


Vowels (dependent and independent):
-------
a      aa/A    i      ii/I     u       uu/U  RRi/R^i    RRI/R^I
LLi/L^i    LLI/L^I
e      ai        o      au         aM      aH

Consonants:
-----------
k     kh     g     gh     ~N
ch    Ch     j     jh     ~n
T     Th     D     Dh     N
t     th     d     dh     n
p     ph     b     bh     m
y     r      l     v / w
sh    Sh     s     h      L
x / kSh     GY / j~n / dny     shr
R (for marathi half-RA)
L / ld (marathi LLA)
Y (bengali)



Specials/Accents:
-----------------
Anusvara:       .n / M / .m  (dot on top of previous consonant/vowel)
Avagraha:       .a    (`S' like symbol basically to replace a after o)
Ardhachandra:   .c    (for vowel sound as in english words `cat' or
`talk')
Chandra-Bindu:  .N    (chandra-bindu on top of previous letter)
Halant:         .h    (to get half-form of the consonant - no vowel -
virama)
Visarga:        H     (visarga - looks like a colon character)
Om:             OM, AUM (Om symbol)




With respects,
Ravi



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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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--
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam

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