Notes on BSB I-i-4-1H

[Dennis Waite]

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya
madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who is ever
auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all the way up to
my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the three
guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of purity who is
the best among the
teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to his lotus feet I (sadaa) always
prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada - i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .- 4
 suutra: tat tu samanvayaat.h .-1H

Notes on BSB I-i-4-1H
We are discussing Shankara's commentary related to the word 'tu'. With
this the answers to puurvamiimaa.nsaa puurvapaksha-s that include Prabhakara
and Bhatta matams are over.

Shankara next introduces one more important matam in his commentary
related to the word 'tu'. Shankara discusses that here since this matam
is very close to puurvamiimaa.nsaka matam. That matam is called
'vR^ittikaara matam'.

vR^ittiH here means a small commentary like Notes. vyaakhyaanam and
bhaashhyam are also commentaries but they are elaborate. Hence
vR^ittikaara means a commentator. So vR^ittikaara matam means the
philosophy or view of one of the brahmasutra commentators. There were
several bhaashyakaara-s before Shankara. We do not know who this
commentator was. In English we use the expression 'some Tom, Dick or Harry'
for the unknown person. In Sanskrit (it is not "TomaH, DickkiH or HarryH"!!)
- some times they use devadattaH, yaj~nadattaH or vishhNudattaH for the
general name or ditta davittadayaH - dittaH or davittaH etc.

Shankara discusses two vR^ittikaara-s through his commentary - one is called
j~naanakarma samuchchhya vaadii (who claims that j~naana and karma should
be judiciously integrated) - this is heavily discussed in his Gita Bhashya.
(Some aspects of this VR^itti we discussed with reference to suutra 1).
Here Shankara extensively discusses as puuurvapaksha another vR^ittikaara
matam and dismisses it establishing his siddhanta. This vR^ittikaara must
have been very popular during Shankara's time to consider his matam as
puurvapaksha. He does not come under puurvamiimaa.nsaa but some of his views
are very close to it. Hence Shankara discusses his philosophy along with
the discussion of puurvamiimaa.nsaka matams.

What is vR^ittikaara matam?

Most importantly he differs from puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s in saying that
Brahman is existent and is revealed by the upanishhad-s. That is he accepts
brahma
asti and brahmanaH shaastrayonitvam. He also agrees that the
upakramaadi shhaD-li~Nga vichaara proves the existence of Brahman as
revealed
by the upanishhad-s; that is he accepts tat tu samanvayaat. Up to now he is
one with vedantin. But he differs from Vedantin by saying that even though
Brahman is existent as revealed by the upanishhad-s, mere Brahma j~naanam
cannot give moksha. Here he goes along with puurvamiimaa.nsaka to say that
kevala j~naanam cannot give any purushhaartha. He says after gaining brahma
j~naanam one has to do brahma upaasanam to gain moksha. Vedanta reveals
Brahman and asks you to do brahma upaasanaa. Through this brahma
upaasanaa karma - that is through meditation on brahman - one will get
extraordinary
puNyam or merit which helps to secure moksha. In support of this he
quotes the same puurvamiimaa.nsaa suutra - aamnaayasya kriyaarthatvaat
aanarathakhyam athadarthaanaam. The whole veda asks you to do some thing
or other - mere learning Veda is not enough, one has to apply that knowledge
to something or other. vidhinaa tu ekavaakyarthvaat stutyarthena vidhiinaam
syuH - brahmaj~naanam by itself is of no use therefore it should be put into
upaasana vidhi.

In support of his statement he gives upanishhat pramaaNam also. In Bri Upa.
there are two statements - aatmaa ityeva upaasiita - it is called vidyaa
suutram. In another statement that says aatmaanam eva lokam upaasiita. In
both cases there is clear expression - upaasiita. From this it is very clear
that brahma upaasanam or paramaatma upaasanam gives puNyam and that in turn
gives moksha. Then what about the Upanishad statements that say through
j~naanam one can attain moksha - aatmavit shokam tarati brahma veda
brahmaiva bhavati - the knower of aatmaa crosses the ocean of sa.nsaara,
the knower of Brahman becomes Brahman and all those upanishad mantras that
we have quoted before? For that he says, one should carefully interpret
upanishhadic mantra-s. Everyword indicating j~naanam has got the
meaning of upaasanam also.

For example, in shikshaavalli -

ya evam etaa
mahaasa.nhitaa vyaakhyaataa veda | sandhiiyate prajayaa pashubhiH
brahmavarchasena annaadyena suvargeNa lokena | Taitt. Up. 1-2-6

The word veda here is interpreted as upaasiita. Thus veda has two meanings
one
is j~naanam and the other is upaasanam. In bhR^iguvalli also -

ya evam veda |
kshema iti vaachi |
yogakshema iti praaNaapaanayoH |
karmeti hastayoH | 3-10-2.

In this context also we take the meaning of veda as upaasanam. Hence brahma
veda brahmaiva bhavati - in this statement also brahma j~naanii does not
become
Brahman, brahma upaaste saH brahma bhavati. One who does upaasanaa on
Brahman
becomes Brahman.

Similarly the other statements - brahmavit aapnoti paramam
means brahma upaasakaH aapnoti param; aatmavit shokam tarati means aatma
upaasakaH shokam tarati. Hence wherever j~naanam word comes one has to
translate
as upaasanam. yastu sarvaaNi bhuutaani aatmaivaabhuut vijaanataH .... Here
too vijaanataH means the one who does upaasanaa. aatmaanam chet vijaaniiyaat
ayam asmiiti purushhaH - vijaaniiyaat means upaasiita. In short if we take
all the ten quotations given before wherever the word j~naanam comes it has
to be translated as upaasanam. Hence upaasanena puNya dwaara moksham
siddhyati, by upaasana one acquires the merits by which one attains
moksha. -
says vR^ittikaara. According to him, there are exceptions like knowledge
that give
results as in the case of rajju j~naane phalam vartate - this is acceptable.
But
brahmaj~naanam does not come under that exception. Therefore after
brahmaj~naanam one should do upaasanam.

In support of his statement he shows that there are many people who are
experts in the upanishads. Look
   at them - are they muktapurushha-s? They
continue to be sa.nsaarii-s even after the thorough study of Vedanta. Hence
vR^ittikaara argues shR^ita brahmaNaH
api yathaa puurvam sa.nsaaritva darshanaat - Thus there are many people
who know Vedanta thoroughly and still are sa.nsaari-s. They are all Vedantic
educated sa.nsaari-s. Therefore it is evident that brahmaj~naanena eva
mokshaH na sidhyati - by mere knowledge of Brahman one cannot gain moksha.

This particular argument should convince anyone to side with the
vR^ittikaara.
We have seen this as well in the advaitin list serve in terms of
discussions that cause us to conclude that we have had enough of this
intellectual analysis, it is of no use- we want to withdraw and spend our
time in saadhanaa! That is
exactly what the vR^ittikaara says - brahma j~naana anantaram upaasanam
kartavyam , after studying Vedanta one has to do upaasana. He gives one more
argument - the upanishad very clearly says aatmaaa vaa are drashhTavyaH,
shrotavyaH, mantavyaH, nididhyaasitavyaH | Atmaa should be clearly
understood
through shravanam and mananam. Thus through shravanam and mananam one gets
brahma j~naanam. If j~naanam is enough then shrotavyaH and manthavyaH must
be
sufficient . But upanishad clearly prescribes after shravanam and
mananam, nididhyaasitavyaH - constant dwelling upon that - it is derived
from
the root dhyai - dhyaayati - hence nididhyaasana means repeated dhyaanam
-that is what is called upaasanam. Hence upaasanam kartavyam which is a
clean
action, since according to Sanskrit grammar, a suffix tavyaH indicates
a compulsory action. Hence the word nididhyaasitavyaH indicates a vidhi,
a vidhi indicates a compulsory action. Hence upaasanam action gives the
result or prayojanam of moksha and not brahmaj~naanam. Hence the conclusion
of
vR^ittikaara is brahma upaasanena mokshaH, na tu brahma j~naanena. Only
action involving brahma upaasanaa will give moksha and not mere knowledge of
Brahman. This puurvapakshii differs from puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s who do not
accept the existence of even Brahman leave alone Brahma upaasanam.

********
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New Words for Glossary: -

aanarathakhyam = ???
aatmaivaabhuut = [aatmaa eva abhuut]become one with his own self
annaadyena = with food to eat
bhaashhyakaara = a commentator
bhR$iguvalli = [bhR$igu + valli] the chapter in Tait. upan. named after
Rishi Bhrigu.
brahmaiva = [brahma eva] brahman only
brahmaj~naanena = by the knowldge of brahman
brahmaNo = of brahman
brahmavarchasena = splendor of brahman-knowledge
chet = if
darshanaat = by philosophical studies
davittadayaH = anyone [unqualified] [eg Tom, Dick, and Harry]
davittaH = anyone [unqualified]
devadattaH = anyone [unqualified]
dhyaanam = meditation
dhyaayati = meditates
dhyai = [root verb] to meditate
dittaH = anyone [unqualified]
ekavaakyarthvaat = by the meaning of the statement
etaa = these
hastayoH = by the hands
ityeva = [iti eva] thus only
j~naanakarma = combining knowledge and action
karmeti = [karma iti] acting thus
kartavyam = duty
kshema = welfare
lokam = world
mahaasa.nhitaa = the great combinations
mananam = concentrated mind
mantavyaH = ought to be concentrated on
matams = opinions
moksham = salvation
muktapurushha = a liberated person
nididhyaasana = constant meditation
paramam = supreme
pashubhiH = by the beasts
praaNaapaanayoH = by in- and out- breaths
puurvam = prior
puurvamiimaa.nsa = inquiry into the ritual duties ;section of Vedas]
puuurvapaksha = objector
sa.nsaaritva = being in the cycle [creation-dissolution]
samuchchhya = combination
sandhiiyate = becomes edowed with [prosper]
shaastrayonitvam = originating in the scriptures
shhaD-li~Nga = six indicators
shikshaavalli = the chapter on Instruction [in Taitt. upan.]
shokam = sorrow
shR$ita = learned in scriptures
shravanam = listening
siddhyati = acquires
suvargeNa = by heaven
upaasakaH = devotee
upaasanaa = worship
vaachi = speech
vaadii = one holding the opinion
vidhiinaam = rituals
vijaanataH = the knowers
vishhNudattaH = any unqualified person
vR$ittikaara = a commentator.annotator
vyaakhyaanam = expounding
yaj~nadattaH = any unqalified person
yastu = [yaH + tu] who verily
yogakshema = safety and gain

Dennis posting on behalf of Sadananda and

>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:52:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Thu, 19 Apr 2001 21:47:40 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>My speculations are not important, I write a 100 different things :-) By
the
>way I don't restrict my interpretation of Shruti to advaita, so it will be
a
>mixture. (All those who accept Shruti as pramANa have a right to interpret
>according to their taste. So it is better to cater to all and take everyone
>along.)
>

Bhadraiahji,

Your speculations are important because these will ultimately concretize to
lead you to the Supreme Goal, along with the grace of a Sadguru, even
though you may not place faith in them yourselves :-)

>>Sankaran Aniruddhan wrote..
>>As far as Advaita is concerned, isn't it that the whole universe can be
>>insentient, but its substratum has to be Atman?
>
>>Adi Sankara wrote..
>>From this it follows that the cause of the world is not the pradhAna
>> >imagined by the sAMkhyAs, for they accept pradhAna to be insentient.
>But
>>this Existence is conscious because of being the agent of >visualization.
>
>So according to Sankara the universe is sentient (and one only, no stratum
>or substratum). It is upto you to reconcile to this fact :-)
>

Forget about what Acharya Shankara said about the universe for a second.
What are we, on this list saying? When we speculate that the universe is
insentient or X galaxy is insentient or Y galaxy isn't, what have we done
in the process ? We have effectively separated ourselves from this
universe - something which is akin to the first sin itself. Our body
consists of the very same "stuff" that the galaxies are made of. Only the
manifestation is different. Consciousness, Chit, is immanent - this can be
logically deduced, or at least inferred from the fact that consciousness
has no locus ans hence must be all pervading, since its existence cannot be
denied. If we are conscious of our body, the universe must also be
conscious of itself. Is it not

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:28:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Madras Sanskrit College
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear members,

During my recent visit to Chennai, I went to the Madras Sanskrit College
out of curiosity to see the reputed traditional educational institution
in Mylapore, Chennai. Even though I lived in Chennai for long, I had
never visited this institute before. Infact my interest in such institutes
began only after I took interest in Vedas.

I provide here the brief details of the institute. If anybody is
enthusiastic enough to go and study there, this information might be
helpful. For others, it might just serve as an information about a
traditional school.

History: More than 90 years of successful functioning producing
 eminent and erudite traditional sanskrit scholars.

Course: 5 year oriental course affiliated to University of Madras
 in Philosophy, Literature, Grammar, Astronomy, Astrology
 and Ritualogy.

Boarding &
Lodging: Free boarding and lodging for the students
 for 7 years including 2 years course of
 pre-graduation.

Library: 14,000 (fourteen thousand) rare and valuable Sanskrit books.

Staff: Principal, 13 faculty members, Librarian and Admin staff.

Finance: Expenditure on staff salary met partly from grant-in-aid
 of the Govt. of India. Expenditure for additions,
 alterations and maintenance of buildings met through
 donations from philanthropic individuals and bodies.

Annual
Expenses: Maintenance and Recurring expenditure: Rs.125,000.00
 Food Expenses: Rs.400,000.00
 Staff Compensation: Rs.600,000.00

I happened to see a class in session. There were both men and women.
Many male students had "shikha" and were wearing dhoti and a shirt.
The buildings look dilapidated, but nevertheless in place. I could
not go to the library as I had gone during lunch hour and the librarian
was not available.

A little while ago, an article appeared in the Indian Express that
the institute was desparately running short of funds and was on the
verge of being closed down. But when I went, the Principal admitted
that the situation now is not as bad as it was then, but nevertheless
said he would like some support from generous people.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:52:03 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>Your speculations are important because these will ultimately >concretize
>to lead you to the Supreme Goal, along with the grace of a >Sadguru, even
>though you may not place faith in them yourselves :-)

Oh, no! I don't have a life long goal to find Brhaman. I am just a temp
worker acting on the advise of a classmate (call him Sadguru if you like).
He is a daring thinker, but not keeping well last 20 years. About other
Sadgurus I care less, they have enough following :-) The last time I
reported some findings, my friend was pleased.

>Forget about what Acharya Shankara said about the universe for a second.
>What are we, on this list saying? When we speculate that the universe is
>insentient or X galaxy is insentient or Y galaxy isn't, what have we >done
>in the process ? We have effectively separated ourselves from this
>universe - something which is akin to the first sin itself. Our body
>consists of the very same "stuff" that the galaxies are made of. Only >the
>manifestation is different. Consciousness, Chit, is immanent - this >can be
>logically deduced, or at least inferred from the fact that >consciousness
>has no locus ans hence must be all pervading, since its >existence cannot
>be denied. If we are conscious of our body, the >universe must also be
>conscious of itself. Is it not logical?

>Sir Sadananda wrote..
>It saw and it wanted to become many - Since seeing implies that the
> >Existent entity that was there before the creation is a conscious >entity
>since unconscious matter or jadam cannot see.

also..

>Since consciousness cannot become unconsciousness, and there is nothing
> >other than Existence-Consciousness, it only means the matter that you
> >see is not real. The problem is that existence of matter cannot be
> >proved without the presence of consciousness.

I agree with all above arguments (didn't copy everything), with one little
hair splitting.

While we are sure that the perceiver is sentient, the question remains about
what appears as "insentient".

We cannot really "decide" that what seems to be insentient is really
insentient, and there is also really no need for "believing" that it is
sentient. Both actions look a bit jumpy.

We should never "decide" about insentience because that would put a question
about our own origin. How did life arise?

We can not "believe" about the sentience of the seemingly-insentient because
it is not logical as per direct evidence (which again can not be discarded).

Hence my view is that we could give a "benefit of doubt" that the seemingly
insentient is possibly sentient, and that it is "capable of" being sentient.
This middle way solves several logical problems, and seems to be in tune
with teachings of Acharyas and literature.

Sri Gaudapada, in his Karikas, while explaining higher concepts such as
asparsa yoga, has enough compassion to tell us that the Jivas, even though
ignorant of the highest reality, are "capable of understanding" the highest
reality. This "capable of" is the middle path: to prevent a harsh judgement
about the incapability of Jivas or other animals and creatures in realizing
Brahman, when you are not sure.

Also please note the saying : with the kripa of Narayana a kubja can become
a sarva mangala rupini. It is a common knowledge that what we brush aside as
useless may prove itself to our surprise.

I am not planning to ban the word "insentient" :-) but it is entirely
logical to think of what we normally call "the insentient" is something that
is "capable of being sentient"; similar to what Gaudapada said about Jivas.

This thought "capable of being sentient" or "capable of realizing" very much
invokes the unknown aspect and by that very action might bring the
insentient to life, because according to Br. U I.V.10 "Whatever is unknown
is a form of the prANa, for the prANa is what is unknown.". By assuming that
something is unknown you bring it to life (at least this is what happens to
concepts in the mind, if not for real world objects).

Best regards
Bhadraiah
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "K Anand" <carex at v...>
Subject: Sankara Jayanthi again
Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:04:35 +0530
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0CA52.D98D0280"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K Anand" <carex at v...>


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Dear Shri Vyas and Shri Sundaram,

Thanks for your info on Sankara Jayanthi. But is Sankaras's star Punarvasu =
or Aardhraa? I read in a Adyar Library Res centre published book by Mr Sank=
aranarayan named " Sankara - Life and Philosophy and its relevance ot Moder=
n Times" that his star is Punarvasu.

Kindly clarify.

Best regards,
Anand K=20

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C0CA52.D98D0280
Content-Type: text/html;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" http-equiv=3DContent-Type=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Shri Vyas and Shri Sundaram,</FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for your info on Sankara Jayanthi. =
But is=20
Sankaras's star Punarvasu or Aardhraa? I read in a Adyar Library Res centre=
=20
published book by Mr Sankaranarayan named " Sankara - Life and Philosophy a=
nd=20
its relevance ot Modern Times" that his star is Punarvasu.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kindly clarify.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anand

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Sankara Jayanthi
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:25:53
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Jaldhar Vyas wrote:

>Vaishakha Shukla 5 is the tithi. There is a lot of controversy > about the
>year. Publications of the Shringeri and Dwarka maths have > given 788-820
>AD, Kanchi places it several centuries earlier.

I just want to mention an error in the factual content of the above
statement. At present, though the popular date of Sri Adi Sankaracharya is
788-820 AD, this record converges only with Sringeri math. The other maths
in Dwaraka, Puri and Kanchi have published the dates based on their Guru
Paramparas to be 509 B.C. The seat in Jyosirmath has not been very
continuous, but they rebuilt their records based on Dwaraka and Puri and
they also accept 509 B.C as the date of Sri Sankara. Is it not interesting
to see from this that Adi Sankara graced history many centuries before and
after Christ?

Though Vidyasankar Sunderesan has done a wonderful job of building a very
nice web site on Advaita Vedanta, I feel that he has not done justice in the
web site and in some of his postings, while discussing the date of Sankara
or about the Sankara Vijayams. He has certainly quoted a lot of sources from
where he compiled information. I feel that he is very much biased while
discussing the Sankara Vijayams. For example, he says that the author of
Vyasacaliya Sankara Vijayam had copied verses from Madhaviya Sankara Vijayam
and hence Vyasacala Sankara Vijayam is of later date. What I have read about
Madhaviya Sankara Vijayam is that it is a summary (Sankshepa Sankara
Vijayam), and the author has agreed to have taken information from different
sources. He has specifically praised Vyasachala in the initial verses and
has attributed to have sourced Madhaviyam from Vyasachalaliyam.

This brings to question as who the author of Madhaviya Sankara Vijayam is.
If a great personality like Vidyaranya had written Madhaviyam, would he have
borrowed directly from other books? Or may be he did. I do not want to get
into controversies, but I would like to mention that it would be fair to
tell everyone what is available on Adi Sankara. We can form opinions based
on these sources. It is certainly not fair to ignore other’s views or say
that their documents are unreliable - it is just my opinion.

Further to what has been written about Sri Sankara in various places, the
life and history of Sri Sankara is found in Puranas (Siva Rahasyam and
Markandeya Samhita). I should specially mention that Siva Rahasyam talks
about various avatars of Lord Siva in this Kali yuga. Those avatars are Sri
Sankara, Sri Vidyaranya and Appaya Dikshita.

Advaita is a mutually inclusive philosophy, although Sri Sankara condemned
non-Vaidika philosophies. It ultimately transcends time and space and brings
bliss to the one who practices it. There have been many Jivan-muktas in the
last century, who were true Advaitins. I pray that all of us in this forum,
leave our differences, and work on achieving that state of bliss, by our own
sadhanas and the blessings of those Jivan-muktas.

What remains is one - in you and me. Where does the difference come from?

Ravi



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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:34:25 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


This is just clarify the previous post. In C++ there is a "cast" operation
which can be used to make an integer number look like a decimal number.

int i = 25;
float a;
a = (long) i;

In the above, i is an integer. The expression "(long) i" does not change the
nature of i, but casts it as a decimal so that it appears as decimal.

We cannot decide about the insentience of the insentient because we are
ourselves made of that same insentient material and still we are sentient
for some unknown reason. We can not believe about sentience of the
insentient because that is against direct evidence. By meditating on the
insentient as "capable of being sentient" because we are ourselves a direct
evidence of such capability, we are casting the insentient to be of same
type as the sentient. Once the perceiver and the perceived are of the same
type, they become non-different. One chunk of the unknown is no different
from another chunk of unknown. So they are equal. This much little extra
work is needed, call it upAsana? (Thanks to Sri Ravisankar for explaining
the difference between brahmajnanam and upAsana, never hear of this).

(Likewise we can 'cast' agni as viSNu or mitra or varuNa, or we can cast
viSNu as agni or mitra or varuNa. But life is not so symmetrical with
relationships between other symbols.)

My arguments (re: importance of brAhmaNas) are nearly completed, and I
request Sri Siddhartha Krishna to continue the presentation re: the toughest
part of the Shruti viz.. Rgveda.

Best regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:19:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:34:25 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>
>We cannot decide about the insentience of the insentient because we are
>ourselves made of that same insentient material and still we are sentient
>for some unknown reason. We can not believe about sentience of the
>insentient because that is against direct evidence.

Bhadraiahji,

Could you please state what is insentient? If everything is Brahman, then
everything is Sat+Chit+Ananda+[Some name and form which disappears just as
the memory of yesterday's dream fades out from our mind]. When Advaita is
already accepting Satchidananda in everything, what can we say is
insentient?

This is giving me a good opportunity to discuss something meaningful. I
hope you don't construe this as my being argumentative.


>By meditating on the
>insentient as "capable of being sentient" because we are ourselves a direct
>evidence of such capability, we are casting the insentient to be of same
>type as the sentient. Once the perceiver and the perceived are of the same
>type, they become non-different. One chunk of the unknown is no different
>from another chunk of unknown. So they are equal.

At least to my understanding, they always must be. Brahman and Jagat are
indifferent, the latter of course being only a mAyAvI expression of the
former (?) There is no "becoming" as such, only the dream is dispensed with
as being only a modification of the unchanging mind (Brahman).

Perhaps the reason we percieve Jagat alone, and not Brahman, is due to
avidyA. So anyone subject to avidyA is just as insentient, or sentient, as
the other. I may be stretching it here but perhaps the king (Pravahan
Jahvali ?) instructs the Rishis to expand their meditation to the universal
i.e. the universe is meditating on itself and not such and such Rishi on
Surya etc. If one considers onself as different from another, he indeed
goes from death to death. Perhaps this is also the message of the
Vaishvanara VidyA ( I may have mixed things up here - I read about this a
few months back

>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:18:30 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>Could you please state what is insentient? If everything is Brahman, >then
>everything is Sat+Chit+Ananda+[Some name and form which disappears >just as
>the memory of yesterday's dream fades out from our mind]. When >Advaita is
>already accepting Satchidananda in everything, what can we >say is
>insentient?

Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: in·sen·tient
Pronunciation: (")in-'sen(t)-sh(E-)&nt
Function: adjective : lacking perception, consciousness, or animation -
in·sen·tience /-sh(E-)&n(t)s/ noun

Sentience or insentience are also attributes, whereas Brahman can have no
attributes. We use these attributes for our understanding, and drop them
subsequently.

But all said and done, the jivas do take refuge in the insentient at some
point of time for different reasons. As they tell in Lamaze classes, babies
like to be always well entertained and stimulated, but they also need a time
of the day when are left to themselves in peace where things don't change
too often. It is this need for stability and constancy which makes people
look for something insentient. Also in the waking or dream states when
several objects are perceived from time to time, there is the tendency of
jivas to hold on to one of the objects that appeals to them.

But now if you want to hold on to any object (name or form) for whatever
reason, you can do so for a little while for your comfort, but in due course
it will take you all over the place.. I mean all over this place called
yajna. And this movement is what we observe as sentience.

Therefore insentience and sentience are two sides of the same coin.

>>By meditating on the insentient as "capable of being sentient" because
>> >>we are ourselves a direct evidence of such capability, we are casting
>> >>the insentient to be of same type as the sentient. Once the perceiver
>> >>and the perceived are of the same type, they become non-different. One
>> >>chunk of the unknown is no different from another chunk of unknown. So
>> >>they are equal.

>At least to my understanding, they always must be. Brahman and Jagat are
>indifferent, the latter of course being only a mAyAvI expression of the
>former (?) There is no "becoming" as such, only the dream is dispensed
> >with as being only a modification of the unchanging mind (Brahman).

There is no becoming from absolute point of view, but there "is" becoming
from the point of view of relative existence. We can smartly use this
ability of becoming, to negate the duality.

>Perhaps the reason we percieve Jagat alone, and not Brahman, is due to
> >avidyA.

Can Brahman be perceieved at all? ;-)

>So anyone subject to avidyA is just as insentient, or sentient, as the
> >other. I may be stretching it here but perhaps the king (Pravahan
>Jahvali ?) instructs the Rishis to expand their meditation to the
> >universal i.e. the universe is meditating on itself and not such and
> >such Rishi on Surya etc. If one considers onself as different from
> >another, he indeed goes from death to death. Perhaps this is also the
> >message of the Vaishvanara VidyA ( I may have mixed things up here - I
> >read about this a few months back )

Absolutely. After casting insentient as sentient, one attains sentience but
this is the one material that "has" properties (such as sentience or Sat,
Chit, Anandam etc). This has to be discarded also. Sorry I left the model
incomplete in last mail.

Any one kindly correct my errors. I am new to traditional usage of some
terms like : avidya, sat, chit Anandam etc.

Best regards
Bhadraiah

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:51:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:18:30 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>>Could you please state what is insentient? If everything is Brahman, >then
>>everything is Sat+Chit+Ananda+[Some name and form which disappears >just
as
>>the memory of yesterday's dream fades out from our mind]. When >Advaita is
>>already accepting Satchidananda in everything, what can we >say is
>>insentient?
>
>
>But all said and done, the jivas do take refuge in the insentient at some
>point of time for different reasons. As they tell in Lamaze classes, babies
>like to be always well entertained and stimulated, but they also need a
time
>of the day when are left to themselves in peace where things don't change
>too often. It is this need for stability and constancy which makes people
>look for something insentient. Also in the waking or dream states when
>several objects are perceived from time to time, there is the tendency of
>jivas to hold on to one of the objects that appeals to them.
>
>But now if you want to hold on to any object (name or form) for whatever
>reason, you can do so for a little while for your comfort, but in due
course
>it will take you all over the place.. I mean all over this place called
>yajna. And this movement is what we observe as sentience.
>
>Therefore insentience and sentience are two sides of the same coin.
>

Bhadraiahji,

jIvA is Brahman. From a vyAvahArik point of view, we can say that jIvA is
Brahman reflected in the admixture of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. From the
point of view of the Supreme, there is no bondage - the jIvA was never in
bondage. I think what I was trying to say vis-a-vis sentient and insentient
was that at no point of time can one state that X is sentient and Y is not.
The consciousness that percieves both X and Y is the ultimate illuminator
of both and it itself has no locus, either in X or Y. So we cannot say that
there is any insentience anywhere, at any point of time (and I did not mean
the insentience defined by an English disctionary - I meant the
conscicousness that makes a thing aware of itself).

>
>Can Brahman be perceieved at all? ;-)
>

No but it is Brahman that percieves this all. The objective view of my
being the viewer is

>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


Namaste :
--- ShrI Bhadraiah Mallampalli wrote:
> Sentience or insentience are also attributes, whereas
> Brahman can have no
> attributes. We use these attributes for our
> understanding, and drop them
> subsequently.
I have understood the notion of sentience in your posts to
be the nature of consciousness
i.e. sentience = self-awareness, which is consciousness.
But, Brahman is consciousness ( as per advaita ).
And, equally so, the insentient i.e. jadam is mithya.
This is affirmed by bhagavatpAda in his introduction to
the BSB ( and discussed here in the BSB thread ).
Also, how exactly jadam is mithya was discussed by ShrI
Anand-ji.
Based on all of this, I have the understanding that the
sentience/consciousness is not a mode of Brahman but IS
Brahman. No?

> Therefore insentience and sentience are two sides of the
> same coin.
But, Sentience ( Brahman ) alone is Real. The insentient is
Unreal and a false super-imposition upon the Sentient.
If that be the case, how can they be two sides of the same
coin?

As regards your C++ analogy ( much to the chagrin of the
non-programmers, sorry ), the "casting" from float to int
is based on the apriori assumption that such a procedure
is possible. For instance, it is not possible to simply
cast a character array ( char * ) in to an int. You would
explicitly have to "create" a converted value for this.

similarly, a gold brick may be transformed in to myriad
gold ornaments each with its own shape. These ornaments may
also be melted back in to the gold brick. But, this process
is possible because the underlying "gold-ness" does not
change. It merely undergoes a transformation of shape, size
etc.

-Vivek.

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:42:34 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Vivek Anand Ganesan wrote..
>I have understood the notion of sentience in your posts to be the >nature
>of consciousness i.e. sentience = self-awareness, which is >consciousness.
>But, Brahman is consciousness ( as per advaita ). And, >equally so, the
>insentient i.e. jadam is mithya. This is affirmed by >bhagavatpAda in his
>introduction to the BSB ( and discussed here in the >BSB thread ). Also,
>how exactly jadam is mithya was discussed by ShrI
>Anand-ji. Based on all of this, I have the understanding that the
>sentience/consciousness is not a mode of Brahman but IS Brahman. No?

As per a foot note by translator (from R.K. Mission) in the mANDUkya
upaniSat with Sankara vyAkhyAna and gauDapAda kArikas, I read that there are
several models to approximately represent Brahman. Another foot notes says
that as such Brhaman is useless (lit.) because it does not serve any purpose
and has no qualities. The best approximation of it, is one element that has
some properties (called saguNa brahman). The next approximations are two
element models, three element models and so on. Considering this, sentience,
sat, chit or Anandam etc are all qualified Brahmans.

As for the argument that insentient can not be Brahman, I have serious
questions. Please consider Shruti "mountains are meditating as it were,
rivers are meditating as it were.." which implies that the insentient
objects like mountains are also doing a meditation known to them and there
is no indication such meditation is likely to fail or has ever failed! So
the insentient objects do their own form of meditation and achieve a Brahman
known to them.

I suspect "jaDam" not being Brahman may be quoted out of context. It may not
be an intended meaning. I will explain this at the end.

My take is, the insentient, if it exists (it does ofcourse exist, e.g.,
tables and chairs) is a form of Brahman. Here is how..

The insentient is a definitely a Brahman called "Name" which is fully
described in Ch.U. VII.2.1 and the list given there also includes earth and
air which are by all means insentient. I do admit that "Name" itself is
conceived by a conscious being, because names can not be conceived by
insentient "things" "(not beings any more!)". But then do I really care
about objects not perceived by me (such as horns of a hare) if they are
Brahman or not? In any case the horns of hare must be Brahman also, because
if I can imagine a hare with horns, why can't Brahman with its much higher
imagining and created capacity also actually such objects? Do you know what
all kinds and shapes of creatures exist in the sea? For now, I only care
about earth etc, and as per Shruti earth is very much the Brahman called
Name.

Sentience being Brahman is a different story, it is saguNa Brahman (the one
element that has "some" properties such as consciousness), whereas nirguNa
Brahman has "no" properties.

(My take on sat, chit, Anandam: Sat is existince (living or non-living) and
is source of Rgveda. chit is intelligence and a source of yajurveda. Anandam
is the source of sAma veda. This completes trayIvidya...masala for a later
day.)

I think the statement "jaDam mithya" is very much true, but it is meant to
convey something else in a different context. It can not be mixed up with
saguNa Brahman upAsana to prove jaDam is not Brahman.

jaDam mithya:

A pure consciousness is saguNa Brahman, but for a person who is practicing
saguNa Brahman, any break in pure consciousness or mixup with concepts of
insentient objects unrelated to the logical flow of consciousness is mithya
caused by illogic. Now, when a sAdhaka pursues this illogic and solves it,
the problem gets resolved and one can achieve a continuous saguNa Brahman
unbroken by disturbances like jaDam.

My understanding is, jaDam found while a sAdhaka is practicing saguna
Brahman is mithya; but jaDam as such can not be mithya on its own, infact it
is a Brahman called Name and is very much capable to doing its own
meditation and achieve its own form of Brahman.

I hope the hair splitting is clear.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:49:02 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>As regards your C++ analogy ( much to the chagrin of the non->programmers,
>sorry ), the "casting" from float to int is based on the >apriori
>assumption that such a procedure is possible. For instance, it >is not
>possible to simply cast a character array ( char * ) in to an >int. You
>would explicitly have to "create" a converted value for this.
>similarly, a gold brick may be transformed in to myriad gold ornaments
> >each with its own shape. These ornaments may also be melted back in to
> >the gold brick. But, this process is possible because the >underlying
>"gold-ness" does not change. It merely undergoes a >transformation of
>shape, size etc.

True, man made items items like c++ can not provide unlimited facilities for
casting, and also no one wants to wear a radioactive gold ring! But saguNa
Brahman can surely be cast into any object :)

Best Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:34:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:42:34 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>
>As for the argument that insentient can not be Brahman, I have serious
>questions. Please consider Shruti "mountains are meditating as it were,
>rivers are meditating as it were.." which implies that the insentient
>objects like mountains are also doing a meditation known to them and there
>is no indication such meditation is likely to fail or has ever failed! So
>the insentient objects do their own form of meditation and achieve a
Brahman
>known to them.
>
>I suspect "jaDam" not being Brahman may be quoted out of context. It may
not
>be an intended meaning. I will explain this at the end.
>
>My take is, the insentient, if it exists (it does ofcourse exist, e.g.,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>tables and chairs) is a form of Brahman. Here is how..
>

Bhadraiahji,

I had pointed out in my earlier email as well (perhaps you missed it in the
number of emails this topic has generated) that insentient just cannot be.
It cannot exist.

It might be of interest to know the experiments performed by Sri JC Bose on
a tin plate. Autobiography of a Yogi has a good description of the
experiments. The tin plate, when cut, sent out vibrations as if an infant
was being separated from its

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:29:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sankara Jayanthi again
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, K Anand wrote:

> Thanks for your info on Sankara Jayanthi. But is Sankaras's star
> Punarvasu or Aardhraa? I read in a Adyar Library Res centre published
> book by Mr Sankaranarayan named " Sankara - Life and Philosophy and
> its relevance ot Modern Times" that his star is Punarvasu.
>

I don't know but tomorrow I'm going to the library so I'll do some
research.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:02:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sankara Jayanthi
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Ravishankar Venkatraman wrote:

> I just want to mention an error in the factual content of the above
> statement. At present, though the popular date of Sri Adi Sankaracharya is
> 788-820 AD, this record converges only with Sringeri math. The other maths
> in Dwaraka, Puri and Kanchi have published the dates based on their Guru
> Paramparas to be 509 B.C.

I was under the impression that the Dwarka also accepted 788-820. I don't
remember where I read this though.

 The seat in Jyosirmath has not been very
> continuous, but they rebuilt their records based on Dwaraka and Puri and
> they also accept 509 B.C as the date of Sri Sankara. Is it not interesting
> to see from this that Adi Sankara graced history many centuries before and
> after Christ?
>
> Though Vidyasankar Sunderesan has done a wonderful job of building a very
> nice web site on Advaita Vedanta, I feel that he has not done justice in the
> web site and in some of his postings, while discussing the date of Sankara
> or about the Sankara Vijayams. He has certainly quoted a lot of sources from
> where he compiled information. I feel that he is very much biased while
> discussing the Sankara Vijayams. For example, he says that the author of
> Vyasacaliya Sankara Vijayam had copied verses from Madhaviya Sankara Vijayam
> and hence Vyasacala Sankara Vijayam is of later date. What I have read about
> Madhaviya Sankara Vijayam is that it is a summary (Sankshepa Sankara
> Vijayam), and the author has agreed to have taken information from different
> sources. He has specifically praised Vyasachala in the initial verses and
> has attributed to have sourced Madhaviyam from Vyasachalaliyam.
>
> This brings to question as who the author of Madhaviya Sankara Vijayam is.
> If a great personality like Vidyaranya had written Madhaviyam, would he have
> borrowed directly from other books? Or may be he did. I do not want to get
> into controversies, but I would like to mention that it would be fair to
> tell everyone what is available on Adi Sankara. We can form opinions based
> on these sources. It is certainly not fair to ignore other’s views or say
> that their documents are unreliable - it is just my opinion.
>

Personally I am inclined to trust Vidyashankars scholarship but I'll leave
it to him to discuss his reasons for believing as he does. Let me just
address the larger of issue of why we should get involved in such
questions and to what extent. Earlier I had quoted from "Adi Shankara:
His Life And Times" by Swami Chandrashekharendra Saraswati. Here is
another quote. This is from the episode of Shankaracharya going to the
house of Mandana Mishra. When Mandana Mishra offers Him bhiksha, He says
"no, I have come for vada-bhiksha." Swamiji says:

"Nowadays the term vada is taken to mean verbal fight. But that is not
true. Verbal fight is called jalpa. Vada means exchange of thought with
a view to know what one does not know. Debate with a view to understand
the truth is called vada. Jalpa on the contrary means arguing with a view
to show that the participant is totally wrong. Apart from those two kinds
there is a third one called vitanda. In this type of debate one does not
have a view of one's own but is interested only in demolishing whatever
the participant says."

What we hope to practice here is vada. If it should degenerate into jalpa
or vitanda than it is a signal to stop immediately. But we shouldn't
forego the benefits of vada out of fear of jalpa and vitanda.

Btw, in this book there is a chapter concerning Kanchi's view on date of
Shankaracharya. Like the rest of this book, it is worth reading.

> Further to what has been written about Sri Sankara in various places, the
> life and history of Sri Sankara is found in Puranas (Siva Rahasyam and
> Markandeya Samhita). I should specially mention that Siva Rahasyam talks
> about various avatars of Lord Siva in this Kali yuga. Those avatars are Sri
> Sankara, Sri Vidyaranya and Appaya Dikshita.
>

A long time I ago on the list I asked if anyone knew where to get the
Shivarahasya. Unfortunately no one knew and so far I've not been able to
tell if it has ever been published. Do you have any information on this?

Also by Markandeya Samhita do you mean Markandeya Mahapurana or is this a
different work?

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:29:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1H
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Ravisankar S. Mayavaram wrote:

> Shankara discusses two vR^ittikaara-s through his commentary - one is called
> j~naanakarma samuchchhya vaadii (who claims that j~naana and karma should
> be judiciously integrated) - this is heavily discussed in his Gita Bhashya.
> (Some aspects of this VR^itti we discussed with reference to suutra 1).
> Here Shankara extensively discusses as puuurvapaksha another vR^ittikaara
> matam and dismisses it establishing his siddhanta. This vR^ittikaara must
> have been very popular during Shankara's time to consider his matam as
> puurvapaksha. He does not come under puurvamiimaa.nsaa but some of his
> views are very close to it. Hence Shankara discusses his philosophy along
> with the discussion of puurvamiimaa.nsaka matams.

The first vrttikara is Bhaskara Mishra. His philosophy is called
bheda-abheda vada because it holds that the atma is simultaneously the
same and different as Brahman. For this reason he teaches sadhana should
consist of jnana and karma combined. He was very influential in his time
but his school is now extinct. The later Vaishnavas who hold a
similiar view such as Nimbarka and Chaitanya appear not to be aware of
him. His Gitabhashya has been published but his Brahmasutrabhashya only
exists in fragments afaik.

The other vrttikara is unknown but perhaps Bhartrprapancha another ancient
Vedantin who survives only in quotations.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Ch. U. VI. 2. 3
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:38:20 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Ashish Chandra

There is no way I can disagree. There are also brAhmaNa passages like ai.br
v.22: "This earth, in the beginning was bare, she saw this spell (RV.x.189);
this dappled color, of various forms entered her; whither she desired,
whatever there is here, plants, birds all forms (entered her)". How could
the earth see if she is insentient? The Rsis saw sentience everywhere. All I
am saying is we can also proceed logically without need for a belief system.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:59:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Sankara Jayanthi
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


I had hoped to keep out of controversial issues, but as some of my comments
on the Advaita webpage are apt to be controversial, I will try to clarify
my perspective on Sankaravijayams, traditional dates etc.

In general, our culture has not bothered about keeping written records of
the long-gone past. Everything gets recycled, and ours is a living
tradition. Before paper and printing came to India, texts were written on
palm-leaf, birch-leaf, dyed cloth etc. These are materials that easily get
damaged, and require frequent copying and recopying. Nobody has had the
time to do this for each and every piece of information. Only the most
important things are handed down and recopied again and again, e.g. the
bhAshyas and vArttikas and TIkAs etc, along with the Smritis and Puranas.
These are the primary reasons why I am inclined to doubt those who say they
have written records from 2000 or more years ago, about such things as land
ownership and monetary grants. With respect to such mundane things, I would
certainly like to know other mundane things, such as how the records were
preserved, what was the script of the original records, etc. I would rather
believe those who do not exaggerate about the oldest records that they have.

Re: Sankaravijayam texts - I have written a very detailed paper on the
texts that are currently available, where I have discussed the texts of
mAdhava, anantAnandagiri, vyAsAcala, rAjacUDAmaNi dIkshita, rAmabhadra
dIkshita, tirumala dIkshita, cidvilAsa, sadAnanda, dhanapatisUrin and
acyutarAya. I am aware that I will be seen as a biased person, but I would
gladly welcome any interested person who wishes to analyze my paper
critically, and who perhaps points out any factual or methodological or
even spelling/grammatical error in it. However, this would have to be after
a few months, in order to be fair to the editor of the journal in which
this paper is due to appear.

Re: Sivarahasya and Markandeya Samhita, I have discussed these texts in
passing, in the above paper. Here I would simply note that the first text
mentions Appayya Dikshita, who lived only some five centuries ago, so that
it cannot be very old itself. There are quite a few editions available in
Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Nagari scripts. The second text (different from
the Markandeya Purana) has never been available to anybody, although it has
been ascribed to the Brahmanda Purana. I have myself checked many editions
of the Brahmanda Purana, and haven't found a Markandeya Samhita anywhere,
although there is always some material unique to each edition. I have also
been unable to trace the particular quotations attributed to this text
anywhere in the Brahmanda Purana. There is one Pancharatra text called
Markandeya Samhita, published by the Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam (1984),
which I have not seen. However, I very much doubt if a Pancharatra text has
any historical information on Sankaracharya.

Finally, as Jaldhar notes, I have researched these issues only in the
spirit of vAda, not vitaNDA and not jalpa. I do not believe that the latter
two are very useful in a contemporary situation, where scholarly dialogue
is very important.

Best

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sankara Jayanthi
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


I think more important than the date of shrI shankara is His teachings.
Only thing on which the maTha-s differ about are the date, related
power issues like which is a upa-maTha etc. In my understanding, there
is no disagreement on the philosophy itself and the text of the
shankara bhaShya-s. This is a very bright aspect. After all, how does
it matter when shankara lived, except to the academia. We are
interested in His teachings. And there is no big difference in what is
being taught in shringeri and kanchi. We should be happy that our
difference is on a trivial matter like date, unlike the philosophical
split in shrIvaiShNava religion between tenkalai and vaDakalai
traditions.

My 2c.

Ravi

(even if the above message is not useful, consider it a test for bottom
banner! Hope it works. If it does not and messes up, my apologies in
advance)



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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Sri Rudram 1.1 (Revisited)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Anandji,

I am trying to read/understand Sri Rudram. I have couple of books with me one
by Swami Dayananda Sarasvati(SDS) (Talks on Sri Rudram) and the other is a
Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan publication (Sri Rudram and Chamakam) by T. Rajagopala
Iyer.

I have some questions on your posting (surely very long ago). If you have the
time and the inclination, I would like to get a few things clarified:

> The Rishi of this mantra is Kashyapa, the devatA is Rudra, the meter
 (chhandas) is anushhTubh, according to the commentary of BhaTTa
 BhAskara.

SVS:
SDS says the Rishi is Atreya. How is the Rishi of a particular mantra
identified? The one he rendered was from Krishna Yajur Veda. Could it be that
it has something to with which Veda the Sri Rudram belongs as there seems to be
more than one version (with some variation of course).

> sAyaNAchAryabhAshhyam.h :

> O Rudra! Salutations to Your anger! Let that anger go towards our
 enemies, not towards us! Also let (our) salutations be to Your arrow.
 And also saluations be to Your bow. Also saluations be to Your two
 hands which hold the bow and arrow. Let all these (the anger, bow and
 arrow, Your hands) be active in (destroying) enemies, but not in me.
 This is the import (of the mantra).

SVS:
Somehow the idea of "be active in destroying enemies" is not quite evident in
the mantra. Instead, the import seems to be to pray to Rudra, the karma phala
dAtA, who judging our misdeeds might have destroyed us, to pacify his manyuH.
Infact the following mantra talks of the quietening of the bows and arrows,
hence it seems more suggestive of anger against the evil in us.


> rutiM shabdaM vedAtmAnaM brahmaNe dadAti kalpAdAviti rudra ityapare|
 Others say "He is Rudra because he gives ruti or the Vedic sounds
 to BrahmA at the beginning of the Kalpa."

SVS:
Can you explain "ruti" a bit more. I have not heard of it and how does it mean
Vedic shabdam?

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

__________________________________________________
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>From Shrisha Rao <shrao at n...>
Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:09:55 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1H
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shrisha Rao <shrao at n...>


On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:

> The first vrttikara is Bhaskara Mishra. His philosophy is called
> bheda-abheda vada because it holds that the atma is simultaneously the
> same and different as Brahman. For this reason he teaches sadhana should
> consist of jnana and karma combined.

Bhaskara actually came after Shankara, not before him. He was however
prior to Vachaspati (whose Bhamati criticizes his views).

> He was very influential in his time but his school is now extinct.

I am not aware of any great influence on his part, save that some of his
potshots at Shankara seem to have caused the latter's commentators to rise
to their master's defense. For instance, Bhaskara apparently never had a
significant commentator of his own. Hence, a `school' of his would
largely be an academic construct only.

> His Gitabhashya has been published but his Brahmasutrabhashya only
> exists in fragments afaik.

Quite the opposite, actually. His GB was known only from criticisms by
others, but a fragment was published in the 20th century CE. There may be
reports or publications of complete texts, but I'm not aware of any.

His BSB however is available in full. A reference in this regard is:

Bhaskaracarya : a study with special reference to his Brahmasutrabhasya /
A.B. Khanna. Delhi : Amar Granth Publications, 1998. x, 517 p. ; 22 cm.
Library of Congress Call Number B133.B474 K47 1998.

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Stig Lundgren" <slu at C...>
Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1H
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:40:22 +0200
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Stig Lundgren" <slu at C...>


> On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
>
> > The first vrttikara is Bhaskara Mishra. His philosophy is
called
> > bheda-abheda vada because it holds that the atma is
simultaneously the
> > same and different as Brahman. For this reason he teaches
sadhana should
> > consist of jnana and karma combined.

Shrisha Rao wrote:

> Bhaskara actually came after Shankara, not before him.


Yes. I´m sure that Jaldhar was thinking of Bhartriprapanca.
Bhartriprapanca´s views are examined and criticized by Adi
Sankara in his bhashya on Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, as well as by
Suresvara in his vartika on Sankara´s bhashya. Later
Bhartriprapanca was criticized also by Anandagiri in his glosses
on the two mentioned works by Sankara and Suresvara.

Best regards

Stig

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1H
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:43:37 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


From: Shrisha Rao <shrao at N...>

SR:Bhaskara actually came after Shankara, not before him. He was however
prior to Vachaspati (whose Bhamati criticizes his views).
VA: While that is true, it is also strange that Padmapada refers to some
interpretations of the 'Vrttikara' in his Panchapaadika which are found
exactly in the same manner in Bhaskara Bhashya. So apparently Bhaskara was
following the Vrttikara Upavarsha, whom he elsewhere calls
'shastra-sampradaya-pravarttaka'. A recent work by Klaus Ruping (in German)
attempts to counter the views of Ingalls that Bhaskara and Shankara
Bhagvatpada were both following the Vrttikara and attempts to prove that
Bhaskara actually did not have the Vrtti with him and merely re-constructed
the Vrttikaramata from Shankaracharya's Bhashya. In my opinion Ruping has
failed to prove his point.

 > He was very influential in his time but his school is now extinct.

SR: I am not aware of any great influence on his part, save that some of his
potshots at Shankara seem to have caused the latter's commentators to rise
to their master's defense. For instance, Bhaskara apparently never had a
significant commentator of his own. Hence, a `school' of his would
largely be an academic construct only.
VA:In reality, the Prakatarthavivarana seems to imply that Keshava and
Amrtananda were two Vedantins who followed the lead of Bhaskara and this
text also gives quotations from their lost works. Nakamura has reviewed the
evidence of the Buddhist texts and has concluded that for some centuries
following Shankara, Bhaskara was actually a more prominent Vedantin than
Shankara. Signficantly, Kulluka Bhatta cites the Brahmasutrabhashya of
Bhaskara with reverence in his comment on Manusmriti.

 > His Gitabhashya has been published but his Brahmasutrabhashya only
 > exists in fragments afaik.

SR: Quite the opposite, actually. His GB was known only from criticisms by
others, but a fragment was published in the 20th century CE. There may be
reports or publications of complete texts, but I'm not aware of any.
VA: A critical addition of BSB was being prepared by Buitenen but he gave up
the endeavor, shifting his attention to MBh instead. His manuscript is
apparent still available and several people have used it in their works (Eg,
Neevel in 'Yamuna's Vedanta and the Pancharatra). The GBh exists till the
middle of 9th chapter ONLY and is published once in 1960's. It is out of
print and copies are rare and I was able to make one from a tattered printed
book.

Regards
Vishal
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>From "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Reply-To: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Subject: Re: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:02:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>


Namaskaram.
 I realize this is a rather late reply on this thread, but wanted to post
this anyway.
 I just returned from a trip to Madras, India where I had an opportunity to
speak with several scholars on this topic. My personal guru and mentor, a
nitya - agnihotri and dikshidhar said that taking even one penny had
associated with it a pratigraha dosham. Essentially it boils down to
"selling" the tapas. However, he also reminded me there are greater ideals
one has to live upto
than just accumulating tapas. God realization does not happen on the
accumulation of tapas, for He is not enchanted by tapas. What does matter in
this respect though is that we are not just selling the tapas away, when we
receive money, the yajaman's doshams and other sins get washed away and
attach to us. Hence this would certainly impede in the performance of one's
own observances of yama and niyama. He even gave me some personal examples
... the only real way of making sure that the pratigraha dosham does not
attach to us is by the observance everyday of brahma yajna prashnam, where
one prashnam of the vedas is chanted. The "fire" or tapas of this chanting
burns
the dosham away and hence is made null and void. This is how the system is
expected to work.
 I was also able to confirm shri: S. V. Subrahmanian's point about even the
Ashirvada "costing" some amount of one own tapas!!
 If we seriously wish to help society, by helping people observe rituals,
then, he said, there is no easy way other than making a committment to
learning
the Vedas. It is a 7-8 year process, but one who is caught in quick sand
himself cannot pretend to help another while he is trying to escape himself.
 However, as a parting shot, he also told me that if I did not know some one
who can teach,
or if the need for the people in the community is perceived to be higher
than one's own accumulation
of merit, then he said, do lots and lots of gayathri japam, in the 1000's,
when ever time permits.
Also, after returning home for that day, do what was done for the yajaman
that day agaian at home.
For example, if I helped some one celebrate his shashti abdha poorthi with
an ekA dasha rudram, then
come home and do it again!! Truly a diffuclt task!!
 I know that sever knowledgeable mebers of this list have strong feelings
about this and would perhaps disagree with me (and the scholars I
consulted); but I feel it is important the we know where our true
responsibilities lie -
 Needless to say, there is a part of me that considers higher ideals beyond
my own self improvement,
but in the end, I do also believe that if I improve myself, then I atleast
stop being a burden myself on the society
I am trying to help!!

bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.

----- Original Message -----
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc


> > >It is quite interesting that just a few weeks ago we started such an
> > >endeavor in the Dallas area - the priest at the temple mentioned that
with
> > >a
> > >number of people in this area wanting even simple services to be
performed
> > >for them could not, since there are very few in this area who actually
do
>
> Options (adding on to Sri Anandji's mail - I am not able append to his
posting
> because I have been getting postings in a random order of late - later
ones
> coming early etc.):
>
> 1. Accept only 1 cent as a token daxiNa. There can hardly be any
material
> benefit in 1 cent. So the receiver would not have really benefited by it.
Nor
> would the yajamana have violated by not giving daxiNa. If push comes to
shove,
> even that 1 cent can be dropped in a temple huNdi.
>
> 2. Shastras, I think are more worried about inapproprate daxiNa as
opposed to
> daxiNa per se. One has been highlighted by Sri Anandji where the receiver
> should be worthy before accepting. But there is another inappropriateness
> also, which is the worthiness of the giver. One should not accept daxiNa
from
> anybody and everybody. Obviously we are not good judges of such merits
(people
> may be good, but we cannot be sure about the means employed to earn the
money).
> So people who receive daxiNa, should make sure that they do the mAdhyAna
> sandhyAvandanam where there is a mantra for the expiation of the sins of
having
> received from unworthy people (who might have earned money through dubious
> means).
>
> 3. This was told by one of the priests in NY. Every act done in behalf
of
> others (religious karma) draws from our own reserve of puNya phala. The
priest
> used to say for eg., at the end of the pUjas there is the AshIrvAda
mantras
> where a priest recites verses like "lokAhA samastAhA sukhinO bhavantu"
etc.
> There might be a few other priests alongside who say "tatAsthu" meaning
"so be
> it". Just saying "tatAstu" for such good wishes consumes atleast 4
gAyatrIs of
> puNya phala. I don't know how much of this is true. But it is a good
idea
> that people who receive daxiNa chant gAytarI regularly and more in number
as a
> protective influence incase anything is to go wrong.
>
> 4. In general it is imperative on part of both the priest and the
yajamana to
> do sandhyAvandanam regularly - for other karmas to accrue benefit.
>
> Regards.
> S. V. Subrahmanian.
>
> __________________________________________________
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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:23:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


I am looking for this work (possibly with translation) on dharma
shAstra. If you know of any information on its availability (library or
publisher) etc., please let me know.

Thanks.

=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From kartik at K...
Subject: Re: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:40:53 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH
GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH
OM NAMAH SIVAYA
OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA

Blessed Self,
No doubt I am going to get angry responses after folks read
this, anyhow here goes...
In the Kali Yuga it is NOT possible for the majority to
follow the injunctions of the Vedas neither is it possible
to accomplish Kechari Mudra etc i.e. Hatha Yoga Asanas...

The Vedic injunctions in as much as they deal respect to
ethics et al are established in other forms throughout
society, and in this Kali Yuga, basic honesty, empathy,
mercy, patience, tolerance form a part of those VERY Vedic
injunctions.

It is not good to forget the intent of the vedic
injunctions and rituals. The sabbath was made for man not
man for sabbath.

THERE ARE NO RULES associated with JAPA, provided it is
done for God Realisation. JAPA can be done any time, any
place, any how, by any one irrespective of time, place,
sex, caste, ethnicity, colour, creed, position in society,
literacy etc etc

Does this mean or imply that one should consign the vedas
to fire - NO
The Vedas are eternal truths, however one has to
distinguish between the ritual and the real. The tradition
of the Vedas is everlasting and has to go on. The vast
majority of humanity in its quest for salvation may find
the means that are most suited to their level of evolution
and means.

No one but a Siddha Mahapurusha is competent to comment on
the level of evaolution of an aspirant, given that all
jivas are conciously and sub conciously progressing on
their paths to freedom.

How far is it possible to follow the road of do's and
dont's and rules and restrictions? How is it possible to
find a Purohit having ALL the qualifications? How many true
Brahmins are there these days (let alone "practising"
brahmins).

This is the Kali Yuga, mere JAPA is ENOUGH. In really bad
times, there are really simple solutions!! JAPA is that.

Lord Krishna has again said in the Gita and this is
specially valid for the Kali Yuga- Yagyanam Japa Yagyosmi

My intent is not to hurt anyone's sentiments. I avoid
posting on this list also. I believe in the culture and
heritage of Aryavrata and in the uniqueness that is the
teaching and beauty of Aryavrata. I hope any thread, if
any, that comes from this posting is not simply author-
bashing.

Pranam
OM


> Namaskaram.
> I realize this is a rather late reply on this thread,
but wanted to post
> this anyway.
> I just returned from a trip to Madras, India where I had
an opportunity to
> speak with several scholars on this topic. My personal
guru and mentor, a
> nitya - agnihotri and dikshidhar said that taking even
one penny had
> associated with it a pratigraha dosham. Essentially it
boils down to
> "selling" the tapas. However, he also reminded me there
are greater ideals
> one has to live upto
> than just accumulating tapas. God realization does not
happen on the
> accumulation of tapas, for He is not enchanted by tapas.
What does matter in
> this respect though is that we are not just selling the
tapas away, when we
> receive money, the yajaman's doshams and other sins get
washed away and
> attach to us. Hence this would certainly impede in the
performance of one's
> own observances of yama and niyama. He even gave me some
personal examples
> .... the only real way of making sure that the pratigraha
dosham does not
> attach to us is by the observance everyday of brahma
yajna prashnam, where
> one prashnam of the vedas is chanted. The "fire" or tapas
of this chanting
> burns
> the dosham away and hence is made null and void. This is
how the system is
> expected to work.
> I was also able to confirm shri: S. V. Subrahmanian's
point about even the
> Ashirvada "costing" some amount of one own tapas!!
> If we seriously wish to help society, by helping people
observe rituals,
> then, he said, there is no easy way other than making a
committment to
> learning
> the Vedas. It is a 7-8 year process, but one who is
caught in quick sand
> himself cannot pretend to help another while he is trying
to escape himself.
> However, as a parting shot, he also told me that if I
did not know some one
> who can teach,
> or if the need for the people in the community is
perceived to be higher
> than one's own accumulation
> of merit, then he said, do lots and lots of gayathri
japam, in the 1000's,
> when ever time permits.
> Also, after returning home for that day, do what was done
for the yajaman
> that day agaian at home.
> For example, if I helped some one celebrate his shashti
abdha poorthi with
> an ekA dasha rudram, then
> come home and do it again!! Truly a diffuclt task!!
> I know that sever knowledgeable mebers of this list have
strong feelings
> about this and would perhaps disagree with me (and the
scholars I
> consulted); but I feel it is important the we know where
our true
> responsibilities lie -
> Needless to say, there is a part of me that considers
higher ideals beyond
> my own self improvement,
> but in the end, I do also believe that if I improve
myself, then I atleast
> stop being a burden myself on the society
> I am trying to help!!
>
> bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
> Vaidya.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
> To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
>
>
> > > >It is quite interesting that just a few weeks ago we
started such an
> > > >endeavor in the Dallas area - the priest at the
temple mentioned that
> with
> > > >a
> > > >number of people in this area wanting even simple
services to be
> performed
> > > >for them could not, since there are very few in this
area who actually
> do
> >
> > Options (adding on to Sri Anandji's mail - I am not
able append to his
> posting
> > because I have been getting postings in a random order
of late - later
> ones
> > coming early etc.):
> >
> > 1. Accept only 1 cent as a token daxiNa. There can
hardly be any
> material
> > benefit in 1 cent. So the receiver would not have
really benefited by it.
> Nor
> > would the yajamana have violated by not giving daxiNa.
If push comes to
> shove,
> > even that 1 cent can be dropped in a temple huNdi.
> >
> > 2. Shastras, I think are more worried about
inapproprate daxiNa as
> opposed to
> > daxiNa per se. One has been highlighted by Sri Anandji
where the receiver
> > should be worthy before accepting. But there is
another inappropriateness
> > also, which is the worthiness of the giver. One should
not accept daxiNa
> from
> > anybody and everybody. Obviously we are not good
judges of such merits
> (people
> > may be good, but we cannot be sure about the means
employed to earn the
> money).
> > So people who receive daxiNa, should make sure that
they do the mAdhyAna
> > sandhyAvandanam where there is a mantra for the
expiation of the sins of
> having
> > received from unworthy people (who might have earned
money through dubious
> > means).
> >
> > 3. This was told by one of the priests in NY. Every
act done in behalf
> of
> > others (religious karma) draws from our own reserve of
puNya phala. The
> priest
> > used to say for eg., at the end of the pUjas there is
the AshIrvAda
> mantras
> > where a priest recites verses like "lokAhA samastAhA
sukhinO bhavantu"
> etc.
> > There might be a few other priests alongside who
say "tatAsthu" meaning
> "so be
> > it". Just saying "tatAstu" for such good wishes
consumes atleast 4
> gAyatrIs of
> > puNya phala. I don't know how much of this is true.
But it is a good
> idea
> > that people who receive daxiNa chant gAytarI regularly
and more in number
> as a
> > protective influence incase anything is to go wrong.
> >
> > 4. In general it is imperative on part of both the
priest and the
> yajamana to
> > do sandhyAvandanam regularly - for other karmas to
accrue benefit.
> >
> > Regards.
> > S. V. Subrahmanian.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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>
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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member Introduction: Ballakrishnen Subramaniam
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:50:55 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 04/25/01 04:49 PM -----

 "ballakrishnen Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 subramaniam"
 <ballakrishnen at h...
 tmail.com>

 04/14/01 01:42 AM


I WISH TO INTRODUCE MYSELF AS BALLAKRISHNEN SUBRAMANIAM HAILING FROM
CHENNAI, INDIA. I HAVE BEEN A CLOSE STUDENT OF ADVAITA VEDENTA FOR THE LAST
EIGHTEEN YEARS. SO FAR I HAVE STUDIED THE CHATUSUTRI WITH SANKARA BHASYA IN
DETAIL AND THE SANKHYA YOGA IN THE GITA WITH SANKARA BHASYA ALONG WITH A
SMALL TREATISE ON VEDENTA CALLED LAGHU VASUDEVA MANANAM AT THE LOTUS FEET
OF MY GURU BR.SRI P.S.ANANTHANARAYANA VAJAPAYEE MAHA AGNI CHIT. I AM NOW
IN THE PROCESS OF LEARNING BRHADARANYAKA UPANISAD WITH SANKARA BHASYA WITH
DR.GODA VENKATESWARA SASTRIGAL. WOULD LIKE TO JOIN THIS CLUB IF YOUR
MEMBERS THINK I AM FIT ENOUGH.


THANKS
BALLAKRISHNEN

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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Charles Balducci
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:53:28 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 04/25/01 04:51 PM -----

 News Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 <Namaste at c...
 ducci.com>

 04/21/01 12:49 PM


Dear Jaldhar H. Vyas:

Namaste. Thank you for this opportunity to join the Advaita Vedanta
newsgroup. My name is Charles Balducci
and I have been a student of yoga and Eastern philosophy for 16 years. I
have studied Siddha Yoga under the guidance of Muktananda Paramahansa and
Gurumayi Chidvilasananda, and I have studied the Integral yoga of the Rev
Sri Sw. Satchidananda. The influence of Sri Ramana Maharshi has over the
years had a profound influence on my understanding of the Self, and I join
this list to deepen this understanding. I presently live in Philadelphia
where today it is a beautiful 75 degrees.

Again thank you for this opportunity to share in the the illumination that
is Adavaita.

Best Regards,
Charles Balducci (Devadatta)

PO BOX 40078
PHILADELPHIA, PA 19106



C.Balducci
PO BOX 40078
Philadelphia, PA 19106

PH/FX: 877.353.5726
Namaste at c...

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:44:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: New member Introduction: Ballakrishnen Subramaniam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Vaidya Sundaram wrote:

> I WISH TO INTRODUCE MYSELF AS BALLAKRISHNEN SUBRAMANIAM HAILING FROM
> CHENNAI, INDIA. I HAVE BEEN A CLOSE STUDENT OF ADVAITA VEDENTA FOR THE LAST
> EIGHTEEN YEARS. SO FAR I HAVE STUDIED THE CHATUSUTRI WITH SANKARA BHASYA IN
> DETAIL AND THE SANKHYA YOGA IN THE GITA WITH SANKARA BHASYA ALONG WITH A
> SMALL TREATISE ON VEDENTA CALLED LAGHU VASUDEVA MANANAM AT THE LOTUS FEET
> OF MY GURU BR.SRI P.S.ANANTHANARAYANA VAJAPAYEE MAHA AGNI CHIT. I AM NOW
> IN THE PROCESS OF LEARNING BRHADARANYAKA UPANISAD WITH SANKARA BHASYA WITH
> DR.GODA VENKATESWARA SASTRIGAL. WOULD LIKE TO JOIN THIS CLUB IF YOUR
> MEMBERS THINK I AM FIT ENOUGH.
>
>
> THANKS
> BALLAKRISHNEN
>

Welcome. I'd just like to make two comments.

1. Please don't type in all caps. That is considered "shouting" on the
Internet.

2. Could you please write about some the works you've studied? I'm sure
all the readers would be very interested.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:52:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Ravisankar S. Mayavaram wrote:

> I am looking for this work (possibly with translation) on dharma
> shAstra. If you know of any information on its availability (library or
> publisher) etc., please let me know.
>

The New York Public Library has several editions of a work by a
Vaidyanatha Dikshita called Jataka Parijata. But as the name suggests,
this is a work on astrology not dharmashastra. There was a Vaidyanatha
Payagunde who wrote on dharmashastra and other subjects but he wasn't
titled Dikshita as far as I know.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:58:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sankara Jayanthi again
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, K Anand wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your info on Sankara Jayanthi. But is Sankaras's star
> > Punarvasu or Aardhraa? I read in a Adyar Library Res centre published
> > book by Mr Sankaranarayan named " Sankara - Life and Philosophy and
> > its relevance ot Modern Times" that his star is Punarvasu.
> >
>
> I don't know but tomorrow I'm going to the library so I'll do some
> research.
>

Ok, I consulted a few books on the topic. The nakshatra is Ardra.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:39:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bhaskara Mishra
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thanks to all those who wrote on this subject and corrected the errors, I
learned quite a bit.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:04:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Vaidya Sundaram wrote:

> associated with it a pratigraha dosham. Essentially it boils down to
> "selling" the tapas. However, he also reminded me there are greater ideals
> one has to live upto
> than just accumulating tapas. God realization does not happen on the
> accumulation of tapas, for He is not enchanted by tapas. What does matter in
> this respect though is that we are not just selling the tapas away, when we
> receive money, the yajaman's doshams and other sins get washed away and
> attach to us. Hence this would certainly impede in the performance of one's
> own observances of yama and niyama.

If as Brahmanas we don't fulfill our social duty to meet the religious
needs of the other Hindus in order to tend to our own stock of tapa, isn't
that a form of selfishness which could cause an even bigger problem in
spiritual growth?

> He even gave me some personal examples
> ... the only real way of making sure that the pratigraha dosham does
not
> attach to us is by the observance everyday of brahma yajna prashnam, where
> one prashnam of the vedas is chanted. The "fire" or tapas of this chanting
> burns
> the dosham away and hence is made null and void. This is how the system is
> expected to work.

I'm curious, does it have to be all the prashnas (i.e the entire veda) or
can this requirement be fulfilled by doing one or a few repeatedly? The
reason I ask is because I haven't studied all of my shakha. But I know
most of the 8 chapters of the Rudri and in my daily Brahmayajna, I repeat
purushasukta, or shatarudriyam or Ishopanishad etc. Would that count?

> I was also able to confirm shri: S. V. Subrahmanian's point about even the
> Ashirvada "costing" some amount of one own tapas!!
> If we seriously wish to help society, by helping people observe rituals,
> then, he said, there is no easy way other than making a committment to
> learning
> the Vedas. It is a 7-8 year process, but one who is caught in quick sand
> himself cannot pretend to help another while he is trying to escape himself.

It should also be pointed out that many of our contemporary rituals are
puranokta or tantrokta not vedokta. Even if one isn't up to performing
Vedic rituals, one can still be helpful to the community by doing
Satyanarayanakatha, Bhagavatakatha, Chandipath, etc. There is quite a bit
of learning involved for those too but comparatively less.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:50:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 25 Apr 101, Kartik Vashishta wrote:
 ^^^
So that Y2K bug wasn't a hoax after all :-)

> In the Kali Yuga it is NOT possible for the majority to
> follow the injunctions of the Vedas neither is it possible
> to accomplish Kechari Mudra etc i.e. Hatha Yoga Asanas...
>

I have little sympathy for such views because I've been told "oh you can't
learn Sanskrit in America", "one cannot keep an astika lifestyle in these
modern times", "no one will marry you if you keep shikha and wear a
tilak." etc. There are literally millions of excuses to NOT do things.
But you know what? I'm doing them anyway. Now I'm not claiming I'm
perfect, in fact I would be the first to tell you I have a lot to learn.
But I'm confident that I can say I conduct my life in a manner of
which our Acharyas would approve. How many of the naysayers have even
tried. How many even KNOW what the shastras require? The respect due to
the opinions of those sort of people is small indeed.

So rather than get angry, let me challenge you to find out for yourself
what is and isn't possible in the Kaliyuga. I think you'll be pleasently
surprised.

> The Vedic injunctions in as much as they deal respect to
> ethics et al are established in other forms throughout
> society,

If the majority is incapable of following the ethics of Vedic society,
what makes you think modern society will fare any better in this regard.

> and in this Kali Yuga, basic honesty, empathy,
> mercy, patience, tolerance form a part of those VERY Vedic
> injunctions.
>

They always did. But only a part. Can one claim to be following one part
while ignoring the other parts without being branded a hypocrite?

> It is not good to forget the intent of the vedic
> injunctions and rituals.

As a matter of methodology, how did you determine the intent of the Vedic
injunctions and rituals?

> The sabbath was made for man not
> man for sabbath.
>

Made for man to do what?

> Does this mean or imply that one should consign the vedas
> to fire - NO
> The Vedas are eternal truths, however one has to
> distinguish between the ritual and the real.

Yes this is true. And until you truly have learned to distinguish that,
the rituals are binding.

> The tradition
> of the Vedas is everlasting and has to go on.

 The vast
> majority of humanity in its quest for salvation may find
> the means that are most suited to their level of evolution
> and means.
>

Sure. But unlike an animal, a Humans ability to evolve is not fixed in
stone.

> No one but a Siddha Mahapurusha is competent to comment on
> the level of evaolution of an aspirant, given that all
> jivas are conciously and sub conciously progressing on
> their paths to freedom.
>
Perhaps, but others can make a good guess.

> How far is it possible to follow the road of do's and
> dont's and rules and restrictions? How is it possible to
> find a Purohit having ALL the qualifications? How many true
> Brahmins are there these days (let alone "practising"
> brahmins).
>

Probably not too many. So let us try and add two more to the number.

> This is the Kali Yuga, mere JAPA is ENOUGH. In really bad
> times, there are really simple solutions!! JAPA is that.
>
> Lord Krishna has again said in the Gita and this is
> specially valid for the Kali Yuga- Yagyanam Japa Yagyosmi
>

When we speak of the intricacies of Vedic ritual, we aren't just talking
about things that happened in the distantt past. There are still people
who live that lifestyle to the fullest. In fact Vaidya just met one! Now
these people also live in the Kaliyuga so if they can do it why can't we?
There is nothing in Krishna Bhagawans words to suggest that japa is a
replacement for ones duties. It is a concession to the weakness of the
people of the Kaliyuga. But what comes after the Kalyuga? Another
Satyayuga.

> My intent is not to hurt anyone's sentiments. I avoid
> posting on this list also. I believe in the culture and
> heritage of Aryavrata and in the uniqueness that is the
> teaching and beauty of Aryavrata.

I don't doubt your sincerity. But belief isn't enough. Sanatana Dharma
is about practice more than belief.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "ballakrishnen subramaniam" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 05:24:45
Content-Type: text/html
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "ballakrishnen subramaniam" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


<html><DIV>
<P>26.4.01</P>
<P>This encyclopedia on dharma sastra viz "Vaidyanath Deekshitam" in grantha and tamil translation now presently out of print was published between 1925 and 1952 by Vaidika Vardhini Press, Kumbakonam, now presently at Mannargudi is not available. There are copies at the Kanchi Kamakoti peetam at both Kumbakonam and Kanchipuram. But this is only for reference. There are personal copies with some people, but please be rest assured they will not part with it even for xeroxing as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt if xeroxed. there are no translation for it in english but the original text is called  SHAT KANDAM. The six kandams are a) Anhika Kandam b) Prayachitta Kandam  c)  Sharada Kandam  d) Eka Agni Kandam  e) Asoucha Kandam  f) Tithi Nirnayana Khandam.  I have a copy of all the six kandams (total 8 vols anhika kandam 2 vols and shraddha kandam 2 vols). If you live in Chennai you are welcome and have a look at i!
 t. Please note you can only read it at my home and not take it out of my site. This book was blessed and given to me by the Paramacharyal of the Kamakoti peetam in 1988. I have been fortunate enough to study the entire work under the lotus feet of my guru at Musiri between 1988 and 1994.There is a similar work called the History of Dharma Sastra  by P.V.KANE in 8 vols in english published by Bhandarkar Institute,Pune. Please let me know if you live in chennai, and whether you are a brahmin or not. This work ishighly critical on a lot of issues on varna ashramam     <BR><BR>Ballakrishnen</P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <MIINALOCHANII at Y...>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at B...>
<DIV></DIV>>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:23:49 -0700
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>I am looking for this work (possibly with translation) on dharma
<DIV></DIV>>shAstra. If you know of any information on its availability (library or
<DIV></DIV>>publisher) etc., please let me know.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Thanks.
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>=====
<DIV></DIV>>ambaaL daasan
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Ravi
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>__________________________________________________
<DIV></DIV>>Do You Yahoo!?
<DIV></DIV>>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
<DIV></DIV>>http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe from ADVAITA-L please send an e-mail to
<DIV></DIV>>listserv at l... with
<DIV></DIV>>body of the message containing SIGNOFF ADVAITA-L
<DIV></DIV>>If you need any other help please contact listmaster at a...
<DIV></DIV>>================================================================================
<DIV></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p></html>

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>From "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>
Subject: Re: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:23:25 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0CE43.4F4E5C00"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>


------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C0CE43.4F4E5C00
Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In our area(Rayalaseema of AP neighbouring Karnataka), "Nirnaya Sindhu" (K=
amalakara Bhatta praneetam) is generally used as reference for issues reg D=
harma Shastra. Is it used any where else also? What about its contents/sta=
nd vis-a-vis "Vaidya Naatheeyam"?

Thanks,
Ramkumar
 ----- Original Message -----=20
 From: ballakrishnen subramaniam=20
 To: ADVAITA-L at L...=20
 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:24 AM
 Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam


 26.4.01

 This encyclopedia on dharma sastra viz "Vaidyanath Deekshitam" in grantha=
 and tamil translation now presently out of print was published between 192=
5 and 1952 by Vaidika Vardhini Press, Kumbakonam, now presently at Mannargu=
di is not available. There are copies at the Kanchi Kamakoti peetam at both=
 Kumbakonam and Kanchipuram. But this is only for reference. There are pers=
onal copies with some people, but please be rest assured they will not part=
 with it even for xeroxing as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt=
 if xeroxed. there are no translation for it in english but the original te=
xt is called SHAT KANDAM. The six kandams are a) Anhika Kandam b) Prayachi=
tta Kandam c) Sharada Kandam d) Eka Agni Kandam e) Asoucha Kandam f) T=
ithi Nirnayana Khandam. I have a copy of all the six kandams (total 8 vols=
 anhika kandam 2 vols and shraddha kandam 2 vols). If you live in Chennai y=
ou are welcome and have a look at i! t. Please note you can only read it at=
 my home and not take it out of my site. This book was blessed and given to=
 me by the Paramacharyal of the Kamakoti peetam in 1988. I have been fortun=
ate enough to study the entire work under the lotus feet of my guru at Musi=
ri between 1988 and 1994.There is a similar work called the History of Dhar=
ma Sastra by P.V.KANE in 8 vols in english published by Bhandarkar Institu=
te,Pune. Please let me know if you live in chennai, and whether you are a b=
rahmin or not. This work ishighly critical on a lot of issues on varna ashr=
amam=20=20=20=20=20

 Ballakrishnen

 >From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram"=20
 >Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara=20
 >To: ADVAITA-L at L...=20
 >Subject: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam=20
 >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:23:49 -0700=20
 >=20
 >I am looking for this work (possibly with translation) on dharma=20
 >shAstra. If you know of any information on its availability (library or=
=20
 >publisher) etc., please let me know.=20
 >=20
 >Thanks.=20
 >=20
 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
 >ambaaL daasan=20
 >=20
 >Ravi=20
 >=20
 >sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI=20
 >=20
 >http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org=20
 >=20
 >__________________________________________________=20
 >Do You Yahoo!?=20
 >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices=20
 >http://auctions.yahoo.com/=20
 >=20
 >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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 >"bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam"=20
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTimes size=3D2>In our area(Rayalaseema of AP neighbouring=
=20
Karnataka), "Nirnaya Sindhu"  (Kamalakara Bhatta praneetam) is general=
ly=20
used as reference for issues reg Dharma Shastra. Is it used any where else=
=20
also?  What about its contents/stand vis-a-vis "Vaidya=20
Naatheeyam"?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTimes size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTimes size=3D2>Ramkumar</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0p=
x; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
 <DIV=20
 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>=20
 <A href=3D"mailto:ballakrishnen at H..."=20
 title=3Dballakrishnen at H...>ballakrishnen subramaniam</A> </DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
 href=3D"mailto:ADVAITA-L at L..."=20
 title=3DADVAITA-L at L...>ADVAITA-L at L...=
TA.ORG</A>=20
 </DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:=
24=20
 AM</DIV>
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Help: vaidyanAtha=20
 dIxitIyam</DIV>
 <DIV><BR></DIV>
 <DIV>
 <P>26.4.01</P>
 <P>This encyclopedia on dharma sastra viz "Vaidyanath Deekshitam" in=
=20
 grantha and tamil translation now presently out of print was published be=
tween=20
 1925 and 1952 by Vaidika Vardhini Press, Kumbakonam, now presently at=20
 Mannargudi is not available. There are copies at the Kanchi Kamakoti peet=
am at=20
 both Kumbakonam and Kanchipuram. But this is only for reference. There ar=
e=20
 personal copies with some people, but please be rest assured they will no=
t=20
 part with it even for xeroxing as the paper is very brittly and will get=
=20
 spoilt if xeroxed. there are no translation for it in english but the ori=
ginal=20
 text is called  SHAT KANDAM. The six kandams are a) Anhika Kandam b)=
=20
 Prayachitta Kandam  c)  Sharada Kandam  d) Eka Agni=20
 Kandam  e) Asoucha Kandam  f) Tithi Nirnayana Khandam.  I =
have=20
 a copy of all the six kandams (total 8 vols anhika kandam 2 vols=20
 and shraddha kandam 2 vols). If you live in Chennai you are wel=
come=20
 and have a look at i! t. Please note you can only read it at my home and =
not=20
 take it out of my site. This book was blessed and given to me by the=20
 Paramacharyal of the Kamakoti peetam in 1988. I have been fortunate=
=20
 enough to study the entire work under the lotus feet of my guru at M=
usiri=20
 between 1988 and 1994.There is a similar work called the History of Dharm=
a=20
 Sastra  by P.V.KANE in 8 vols in english published by Bhandarkar=20
 Institute,Pune. Please let me know if you live in chennai, and whether yo=
u are=20
 a brahmin or
   not. This work ishighly critical on a lot of issue=
s on=20
 varna ashramam     <BR><BR>Ballakrishnen</P></DIV>
 <DIV></DIV>
 <DIV></DIV>>From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <MIINALOCHANII at Y...>
 <DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shank=
ara=20
 <ADVAITA-L at B...>
 <DIV></DIV>>To: ADVAITA-L at L...=20
 <DIV></DIV>>Subject: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam=20
 <DIV></DIV>>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:23:49 -0700=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>I am looking for this work (possibly with translation) on=
=20
 dharma=20
 <DIV></DIV>>shAstra. If you know of any information on its availabilit=
y=20
 (library or=20
 <DIV></DIV>>publisher) etc., please let me know.=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>Thanks.=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
 <DIV></DIV>>ambaaL daasan=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>Ravi=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>__________________________________________________=20
 <DIV></DIV>>Do You Yahoo!?=20
 <DIV></DIV>>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices=
=20
 <DIV></DIV>>http://auctions.yahoo.com/=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20

 <DIV></DIV>>"bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam"=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=20
 <DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe from ADVAITA-L please send an e-mail to=20
 <DIV></DIV>>listserv at l... with=20
 <DIV></DIV>>body of the message containing SIGNOFF ADVAITA-L=20
 <DIV></DIV>>If you need any other help please contact=20
 listmaster at a...=20
 <DIV></DIV>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20

 <DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall>
 <HR>
 Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <A=20
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>From "ballakrishnen subramaniam" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:18:04
Content-Type: text/html
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "ballakrishnen subramaniam" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


<html><DIV>
<P>Vaidyanatha Dikshitam is more comprehensive than Nirnaya Sindhu and Dharma Sindhu. Just as these two works are being followed in AP and Karnataka, Vaidyanatha Dikshitam is being followed in TN.</P>
<P>Ballakrishnen<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: "Ramkumar N.S.M." <NRAMKUMA at A...>
<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at B...>
<DIV></DIV>>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:23:25 +0530
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>In our area(Rayalaseema of AP neighbouring Karnataka), "Nirnaya Sindhu" (Kamalakara Bhatta praneetam) is generally used as reference for issues reg Dharma Shastra. Is it used any where else also? What about its contents/stand vis-a-vis "Vaidya Naatheeyam"?
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>Thanks,
<DIV></DIV>>Ramkumar
<DIV></DIV>> ----- Original Message -----
<DIV></DIV>> From: ballakrishnen subramaniam
<DIV></DIV>> To: ADVAITA-L at L...
<DIV></DIV>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:24 AM
<DIV></DIV>> Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> 26.4.01
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> This encyclopedia on dharma sastra viz "Vaidyanath Deekshitam" in grantha and tamil translation now presently out of print was published between 1925 and 1952 by Vaidika Vardhini Press, Kumbakonam, now presently at Mannargudi is not available. There are copies at the Kanchi Kamakoti peetam at both Kumbakonam and Kanchipuram. But this is only for reference. There are personal copies with some people, but please be rest assured they will not part with it even for xeroxing as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt if xeroxed. there are no translation for it in english but the original text is called SHAT KANDAM. The six kandams are a) Anhika Kandam b) Prayachitta Kandam c) Sharada Kandam d) Eka Agni Kandam e) Asoucha Kandam f) Tithi Nirnayana Khandam. I have a copy of all the six kandams (total 8 vols anhika kandam 2 vols and shraddha kandam 2 vols). If you live in Chennai you are welcome and have a look at i! t. Please note you can only read it at my hom!
 e and not take it out of my site. This book was blessed and given to me by the Paramacharyal of the Kamakoti peetam in 1988. I have been fortunate enough to study the entire work under the lotus feet of my guru at Musiri between 1988 and 1994.There is a similar work called the History of Dharma Sastra by P.V.KANE in 8 vols in english published by Bhandarkar Institute,Pune. Please let me know if you live in chennai, and whether you are a brahmin or not. This work ishighly critical on a lot of issues on varna ashramam
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> Ballakrishnen
<DIV></DIV>>
<DIV></DIV>> >From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram"
<DIV></DIV>> >Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
<DIV></DIV>> >To: ADVAITA-L at L...
<DIV></DIV>> >Subject: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
<DIV></DIV>> >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:23:49 -0700
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >I am looking for this work (possibly with translation) on dharma
<DIV></DIV>> >shAstra. If you know of any information on its availability (library or
<DIV></DIV>> >publisher) etc., please let me know.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >Thanks.
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >=====
<DIV></DIV>> >ambaaL daasan
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >Ravi
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >__________________________________________________
<DIV></DIV>> >Do You Yahoo!?
<DIV></DIV>> >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
<DIV></DIV>> >http://auctions.yahoo.com/
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >================================================================================
<DIV></DIV>> >"bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam"
<DIV></DIV>> >
<DIV></DIV>> >To unsubscribe from ADVAITA-L please send an e-mail to
<DIV></DIV>> >listserv at l... with
<DIV></DIV>> >body of the message containing SIGNOFF ADVAITA-L
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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: D.V.N.Sarma
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:49:39 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 04/25/01 04:48 PM -----

 "D.V.N.Sarma" Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 <narayana at h...
 nl.net.in>

 04/13/01 12:57
 PM




I am 65. Retired after working as Reader In Physics in Osmania
University. I have working knowledge of sanskrit. Interested in
philosophy in general and advaita in particular.

regards,

Sarma.

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:20:06 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
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From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri subramaniam and other hotmail users,

Above the editing area, there are two checkboxes:

 _ Save Outgoing Message _ Rich Text Format


For posting in Advaita-L, it may be helpful to remove the check mark in
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Bhadraiah
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>From "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Reply-To: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Subject: Re: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:35:23 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>


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> There are personal copies with some people, but please=20
> be rest assured they will not part with it even for xeroxing=20
> as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt if xeroxed.=20

I have read about the greatness of the vaidyanAtha dIsitIyam in a few disco=
urses by the ParamAcharyal of Kanchi. However, when there are no more copie=
s available that are sold in book stores, and the printer in not printing i=
t either, how would one go about getting a copy, perhaps for even printing =
it again, or translating it into english, if people who do have copies are =
not willing to part with it even for photocopying? If a photocopy is made, =
it makes only sense that a new copy is made, and the book is saved from pra=
ctical extinctiction, is it not?=20
A few days ago, there was discussion in this list about how in olden times,=
 only the most essential of works got copied and others were not. I am surp=
rised that even in this day and age, we have works of immense significance =
but are unable to even "copy" them!!

bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.




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<DIV>> There are personal copies with some people, but please </DIV>
<DIV>> be rest assured they will not part with it even for xeroxing </DI=
V>
<DIV>> as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt if xeroxed. </DI=
V>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have read about the greatness of th=
e=20
vaidyanAtha dIsitIyam in a few discourses by the ParamAcharyal of Kanchi.=20
However, when there are no more copies available that are sold in book=20
stores, and the printer in not printing it either, how would one go ab=
out=20
getting a copy, perhaps for even printing it again, or translating it into=
=20
english, if people who do have copies are not willing to part with it =
even=20
for photocopying? If a photocopy is made, it makes only sense that a new co=
py is=20
made, and the book is saved from practical extinctiction, is it not?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A few days ago, there was discussion in th=
is list=20
about how in olden times, only the most essential of works got copied and o=
thers=20
were not. I am surprised that even in this day and age, we have works of im=
mense=20
significance but are unable to even "copy" them!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>bhava shankara desikame sharaNam</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Vaidya.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: pratyaksha
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Jaldharji worte:

> What are these subjective notions if not sensory perceptions? (i.e. you
> know you are hungry when your stomach starts rumbling.>
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
>
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, S. V. Subrahmanian wrote:
>
> > Sri Vidyashankarji,
> >
> > In the page titled "PURVA MIMAM.SA, ADVAITA AND OTHER SCHOOLS OF VEDANTA"
> you
> > have mentioned the pramANas in the beginning. You have translated
> pratyaksha
> > as sensory perception only.
> >
> > To make pratyaksha complete, it should include subjective notions too (I am
> > hungry etc).
> >
>

pratyaksha is of 2 kinds one is the objective perception of
objects and the other is the subjective perception
of "I-ness". Both are classified under pratyakshA. The one
that I mentioned is of the second category namely subjective
perception.

If your question is that "I am hungry" is not an apt example
for subjective perception, ofcourse there are other examples.
But if you say that all of pratyaksha is only objective perception
then I wish to briefly state the following:

(Note must be made that the nyAya and vedAntA schools differ in
their definition of perception. I am not sure about nyAya, but I
will write only about the vedAntA perspective).

According to vedAntA Consciousness has 3 forms: one associted with
the vastu or vishaya (object), one as associated with the means of
knowledge (pramANa) and one associated with the subject (pramAta)

Perception happens whenever these 3 forms occupy the same space and time,
where the mental state issuing through the organ and spreads over
the object so as to assume the form of the object, which is perceived.

It is quite evident that perception like "This is a flower" is
pratyaksha and is sakshAt (direct or immediate), whereas all
inference (anumana) is paroksha (indirect or mediate).

The other kind of pratyaksha is the witness perception. Cognitions
like "I am happy", "I am blind" , "I am sad" etc fall under this category.
The primary difference between them being that in the earlier
case the perception is Consciousness that is limited by "this" (pot, cloth etc)
and in the latter it is limited by "I-ness" (happiness, blindness, deafness
etc).

So the former would be like saying "This is the body" whereas
the witness perception would be the notion "I am the body".

mano buddhir ahankAraS chittam karaNamAntaram |
samshayo nischayo garva: smaraNam vishayA ime ||

The manas, intellect, ego and chitta constitute the internal
instrument. Doubt, certitude, egoism and recollection are
their respective objects of perception.

Thus we see that there is whole class of perception that
is not sensory in nature and infact has nothing to do with
any organ at all as in say recollection. Therefore
pratyaksha need not be sensory perception only.

The above argument is porous (I can feel it), but without
studying nyAya and schools like mimamsa and vivarna trying to
write an authoritative statement of pramANas will be futile.
And I don't know nyAya.

Someone more authoritative like Sri Vidyashankarji can comment on it, or we can
wait for Sri AH-ji to handle it in advaita-siddhi.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.


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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:05:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_narayanan at Y...> wrote:


>A few days ago, there was discussion in this list about how in olden times,
only the most essential of works got copied and others were not. I am
surprised that even in this day and age, we have works of immense
significance but are unable to even "copy" them!!
>

In olden days, it was perhaps a question of deciding what was important
enough to be copied and what was not. Nowadays, the major problem is the
lack of interest, will and dedication. I am sure there are quite a few
traditional pundits who have original manuscripts of these works with them,
but they will be extremely unwilling to part with them, for numerous
reasons. Those of us who are interested in these issues should spend the
time, effort and money to preserve such significant texts.

Vidyasankar

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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 14:09:23 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: Request - mails in Rich Text Format
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


I think a few other list members have noticed the following. If you are
using a mail program like hotmail to post to the list,

Please turn off the rich text format option in the compose window. Plain
text mails are sufficient. Members who use Internet Explorer should take
special care of this. Netscape does not make the rich text format option as
the default one.

This is just a request, to help keep the archives and people's individual
mailboxes uncluttered.

Thanks,
Vidyasankar

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:04:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


--- Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_narayanan at y...> wrote:
> > There are personal copies with some people, but please
> > be rest assured they will not part with it even for xeroxing
> > as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt if xeroxed.
>
> I have read about the greatness of the vaidyanAtha dIsitIyam in a few
> discourses by the ParamAcharyal of Kanchi. However, when there are no
> more copies available that are sold in book stores, and the printer
> in not printing it either, how would one go about getting a copy,
> perhaps for even printing it again, or translating it into english,
> if people who do have copies are not willing to part with it even for
> photocopying? If a photocopy is made, it makes only sense that a new
> copy is made, and the book is saved from practical extinctiction, is
> it not?


Two options we have without photocopying is

a) Use a digital camera and take highly quality pictures of each page.
But this is not a good option.

b) Create an electronic copy by typing the whole thing in say ITRANS or
some format. This is the best way. This can be even a paid project.
We can then distribute the text FREELY on the internet. Somebody needs
to coordinate these efforts by arranging someone to type, estimating
the work effort, cost, etc. Once it is on the internet, many can make
copies and the distribution will be easy.

Ravi


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>From "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Reply-To: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Subject: Re: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:41:22 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>


From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...>
> Two options we have without photocopying is
>
> a) Use a digital camera and take highly quality pictures of each page.
> But this is not a good option.

Why do you think so? We could take the images and subsequently use these
images to encode the text using ITRANS right?

> b) Create an electronic copy by typing the whole thing in say ITRANS or
> some format. This is the best way. This can be even a paid project.
> We can then distribute the text FREELY on the internet. Somebody needs
> to coordinate these efforts by arranging someone to type, estimating
> the work effort, cost, etc. Once it is on the internet, many can make
> copies and the distribution will be easy.

Just another thought - would scanning cause the same amout of damage to the
fragile papers as photocopying? My gues it probably would ...
Either ways, scanning or digital imaging, getting more than one person to
work on it would be an option right? Anyways, I think using ITRANS to encode
the book is a great suggestion. As we have called our organization Advaita
Vedanta Anusandhana Kendra, I guess we should all explore possibilities to
further the goal.

Sri. Ballakrishnen, is this a possibility at all??

My sincere apologies if my earlier mail was impolite.
bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.



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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:20:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Just a suggestion. One should try to locate other copies of manuscript which
are also said to be available. That would help in error checking. After ten
years one should not end up with 2 different versions of the same text.
Manuscipts may have some extra remarks etc. One should take help to identify
the main text before copying it over. The research work may be more arduous
than the physical act of copying. Anyway all the best and if you need help,
please don't hesitate.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...>
> Two options we have without photocopying is
>
> a) Use a digital camera and take highly quality pictures of each page.
> But this is not a good option.

Why do you think so? We could take the images and subsequently use these
images to encode the text using ITRANS right?

> b) Create an electronic copy by typing the whole thing in say ITRANS or
> some format. This is the best way. This can be even a paid project.
> We can then distribute the text FREELY on the internet. Somebody needs
> to coordinate these efforts by arranging someone to type, estimating
> the work effort, cost, etc. Once it is on the internet, many can make
> copies and the distribution will be easy.

Just another thought - would scanning cause the same amout of damage to the
fragile papers as photocopying? My gues it probably would ...
Either ways, scanning or digital imaging, getting more than one person to
work on it would be an option right? Anyways, I think using ITRANS to encode
the book is a great suggestion. As we have called our organization Advaita
Vedanta Anusandhana Kendra, I guess we should all explore possibilities to
further the goal.

Sri. Ballakrishnen, is this a possibility at all??

My sincere apologies if my earlier mail was impolite.


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>From "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Reply-To: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Subject: Re: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:28:45 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>


Namaskaram.
 I am trying to respond to sections of your mail, consireding that Jaldhar
has already replied to some of them ...

> In the Kali Yuga it is NOT possible for the majority to
> follow the injunctions of the Vedas neither is it possible
> to accomplish Kechari Mudra etc i.e. Hatha Yoga Asanas...
[...]
> How far is it possible to follow the road of do's and
> dont's and rules and restrictions? How is it possible to
> find a Purohit having ALL the qualifications? How many true
> Brahmins are there these days (let alone "practising"
> brahmins).

I urge all list members to read the comments of His Holiness Sri
Chandrasekarendra Saraswati of Kanchi in His book, Hindu Dharma, available
online for free. The section I refer to is this:
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part4/chap1.htm
For those of you who would like a quick preview, I quote below two
paragraphs from the same page:
Begin quote:
If we start making small compromises in our adherence to the sastras, it
will eventually mean following only such scriptural practices as we find
convenient in our everyday life. Some people tell me with all good
intentions: "The dharmasastras are the creation of rsis. You are like a rsi.
You must make changes in the sastras in keeping with the times. " Their view
is that just as we remove weeds from the fields we must change our customs
and duties according to our times. If I take out some rites and observances
from sastras now, thinking them to be "weeds", later another man will turn
up and remove for the same reason. At this rate, a time will come when we
will not be able to distinguish the weed from the crop and the entire field
will become barren.

It is important to realise that if we are to remain true to the sastras it
is not because they represent the views of the seers but because they
contain the rules founded on the Vedas which are nothing but what Isvara has
ordained. That is the reason why we must follow them. It is my duty to see
that the sastras are preserved as they are. I have no authority to change
them.
End quote.

Need one say more at all?

> THERE ARE NO RULES associated with JAPA, provided it is
> done for God Realisation. JAPA can be done any time, any
> place, any how, by any one irrespective of time, place,
> sex, caste, ethnicity, colour, creed, position in society,
> literacy etc etc

Again, I disagree. It is well known, as is also explained in the book on
japa sadhana available in the swami sivananda web site, that a minimum
amount cleanliness and other pre-requisites are required. Not all japas are
to be done by all people. The only japa you can do as you say, anytime,
anyplace etc, is RAMA nama japam. Other japams like the panchAkshari or
navAkshari, require more strict observances in diet and other habits. We
have discussed this before in this list. You can refer to the archives.

bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.



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>From "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Reply-To: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>
Subject: Re: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:32:09 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vaidya Sundaram" <vaidya_narayanan at y...>


From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...>
> I'm curious, does it have to be all the prashnas (i.e the entire veda) or
> can this requirement be fulfilled by doing one or a few repeatedly? The
> reason I ask is because I haven't studied all of my shakha. But I know
> most of the 8 chapters of the Rudri and in my daily Brahmayajna, I repeat
> purushasukta, or shatarudriyam or Ishopanishad etc. Would that count?

I would refer you, agin, to the book Hindu Dharma. Specifically,
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap39.htm
I quote a small section below. He also refers to performance of Brahma
yajyam as well, but I do not quote those sections ...
(begin quote)
All Brahmins must learn to chant the Purusasukta, the Srisukta, Sri Rudram,
etc. I am speaking particularly to office going Brahmins here. Since they
will find it difficult to devote themselves fully to Vedic learning they
must try to acquire at least a minimum of scriptural knowledge.
(end quote)
I guess His Holiness had us in mind :)
bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.




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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 21:52:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, ballakrishnen subramaniam wrote:

>
> Vaidyanatha Dikshitam is more comprehensive than Nirnaya Sindhu and
> Dharma Sindhu. Just as these two works are being followed in AP and
> Karnataka, Vaidyanatha Dikshitam is being followed in TN.
>

Dharmasindhu and Nirnayasindhu are also widely influential in other
regions too. They are available (with Hindi translation) from the noted
Sanskrit publishers Messrs. Khemraj Shrikrishnadass in Mumbai
(http://www.khemraj.com/)

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:00:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Vaidya Sundaram wrote:

> From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...>

> I would refer you, agin, to the book Hindu Dharma. Specifically,
> http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap39.htm
> I quote a small section below. He also refers to performance of Brahma
> yajyam as well, but I do not quote those sections ...
> (begin quote)
> All Brahmins must learn to chant the Purusasukta, the Srisukta, Sri Rudram,
> etc. I am speaking particularly to office going Brahmins here. Since they
> will find it difficult to devote themselves fully to Vedic learning they
> must try to acquire at least a minimum of scriptural knowledge.
> (end quote)
> I guess His Holiness had us in mind :)

I'm happy to hear this. All I say to the readers is to really take a
good look at yourself and your situation. If, after sober reflection you
come to find you're not capable of anything more than japa, there is
nothing wrong with it. But I know that most of us can do a lot better.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "ballakrishnen subramaniam" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 06:08:50
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "ballakrishnen subramaniam" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


27.4.01
Dear Ravi,
The problem is getting the original to get it printed or digitally copy the
same. As a matter of fact I touch the book only when i am "madi" i persume
you understand what i mean. The book was blessed and given to me by
paramacharyal in 1988. When you come to chennai pl let me know.
Ballakrishnen


>From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as
>taught by Shri Shankara To: ADVAITA-L at L... Subject:
>Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:04:45 -0700
>
>--- Vaidya Sundaram wrote: > > There are personal copies with some people,
>but please > > be rest assured they will not part with it even for xeroxing
> > > as the paper is very brittly and will get spoilt if xeroxed. > > I
>have read about the greatness of the vaidyanAtha dIsitIyam in a few >
>discourses by the ParamAcharyal of Kanchi. However, when there are no >
>more copies available that are sold in book stores, and the printer > in
>not printing it either, how would one go about getting a copy, > perhaps
>for even printing it again, or translating it into english, > if people who
>do have copies are not willing to part with it even for > photocopying? If
>a photocopy is made, it makes only sense that a new > copy is made, and the
>book is saved from practical extinctiction, is > it not?
>
>
>Two options we have without photocopying is
>
>a) Use a digital camera and take highly quality pictures of each page. But
>this is not a good option.
>
>b) Create an electronic copy by typing the whole thing in say ITRANS or
>some format. This is the best way. This can be even a paid project. We can
>then distribute the text FREELY on the internet. Somebody needs to
>coordinate these efforts by arranging someone to type, estimating the work
>effort, cost, etc. Once it is on the internet, many can make copies and the
>distribution will be easy.
>
>Ravi
>
>
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>http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
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>
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 03:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Help: vaidyanAtha dIxitIyam
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


The caution exercised by Sri Ballakrishnen-ji reminds me of a verse in
Brihat Parashara Hora shastra.

Maharshi Parashara teaches Sri Maitreya and that is that SAstra. In that he
opens the dialogue by saying that what he expounds is for the benefit of
mankind to people who might be tormented. But a little later he warns Sri
Maitreya, not to hand over this knowledge to the wicked and irreligious.

There are 1000's of manuscripts in horary astrology that individuals will not
part with. I do not know the reason these days, but in the earlier days I am
sure it was more out of respect for the teaching as opposed to any selfish
motive.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:56:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram 1.1 (Revisited)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:37:20 -0700, S. V. Subrahmanian
<svsubrahmanian at Y...> wrote:

>Sri Anandji,
>
>I am trying to read/understand Sri Rudram. I have couple of books with me
one
>by Swami Dayananda Sarasvati(SDS) (Talks on Sri Rudram) and the other is a
>Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan publication (Sri Rudram and Chamakam) by T.
Rajagopala
>Iyer.
>
>I have some questions on your posting (surely very long ago). If you have
the
>time and the inclination, I would like to get a few things clarified:
>
>> The Rishi of this mantra is Kashyapa, the devatA is Rudra, the meter
> (chhandas) is anushhTubh, according to the commentary of BhaTTa
> BhAskara.
>
>SVS:
>SDS says the Rishi is Atreya. How is the Rishi of a particular mantra
>identified? The one he rendered was from Krishna Yajur Veda. Could it be
that
>it has something to with which Veda the Sri Rudram belongs as there seems
to be
>more than one version (with some variation of course).
>

 I am in the midst of a major transition from the US to India right
 now, but I could not pass up the opportunity to discuss the Rudra.
 It could be because of (minor) differences in the texts of different
 shAkhas. Usually, mantras which are metrical in nature are called
 R^iks even when they occur in a Veda other than the R^ig Veda, which
 of course has only metrical mantras in its saMhitA. The Yajur Veda has
 mantras which are metrical and also mantras which are not. The latter
 are called Yajus. Actually, the distinction is not so clear cut because
 some commentators, such as BhaTTa-bhAskara, specify meter, the Rishi,
 and devatA, even for Yajur mantras.

>> sAyaNAchAryabhAshhyam.h :
>
>> O Rudra! Salutations to Your anger! Let that anger go towards our
> enemies, not towards us! Also let (our) salutations be to Your arrow.
> And also saluations be to Your bow. Also saluations be to Your two
> hands which hold the bow and arrow. Let all these (the anger, bow and
> arrow, Your hands) be active in (destroying) enemies, but not in me.
> This is the import (of the mantra).
>
>SVS:
>Somehow the idea of "be active in destroying enemies" is not quite evident
in
>the mantra. Instead, the import seems to be to pray to Rudra, the karma
phala
>dAtA, who judging our misdeeds might have destroyed us, to pacify his
manyuH.
>Infact the following mantra talks of the quietening of the bows and arrows,
>hence it seems more suggestive of anger against the evil in us.
>

It could very well be what you are suggesting. sAyaNa does use the
word "vairi". It could stand for both external and internal enemies.
After all, at the karma-kANDa level, a brAhmaNa is allowed to use
the Veda, especially mantras from the atharva Veda, for destruction
of his (external) enemies, as Manu says. A wise brAhmaNa will, however,
be more concerned about his internal enemies - kAma, krodha, lobha,
mada, moha, and matsara- than external ones, if at all he considers
someone his enemy. Even if there are external enemies who are trying
to destroy him, he may only use the mantras as a defensive mechanism,
not actively seek the destruction or death of some person.
>
>> rutiM shabdaM vedAtmAnaM brahmaNe dadAti kalpAdAviti rudra ityapare|
> Others say "He is Rudra because he gives ruti or the Vedic sounds
> to BrahmA at the beginning of the Kalpa."
>
>SVS:
>Can you explain "ruti" a bit more. I have not heard of it and how does it
mean
>Vedic shabdam?
>

BhaTTa-bhAskara quotes several sources which equate ruti with Veda or
the PraNava, beginning with an introductory remark "paurANikAdayastu
bahudhA vadanti", those who know the PurANas and other scriptures describe
(Rudra) in various ways. So the interpretation of ruti as Veda must come
from these sources. Some other interpretations mentioned are "rutyA
vedarUpayA dharmAdInavalokayati prApayatIti vA rudra ityanye" and
"rutyA praNavarUpayA svAtmAnaM prApayatItItare."

Anand

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>From "Vidyasankar Sundaresan" <vsundaresan at h...>
Subject: Book - The Ethics of Sankara
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:23:14 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vidyasankar Sundaresan" <vsundaresan at h...>


The Dept. of Sanskrit, University of Calicut, Kerala,
has published "The Ethics of Sankara" in 1990, written
by Professor K N Neelakantan Elayath (neelak3 at y...).

The Malayalam version of this work won the Kerala Sahitya
Academy award in 1984 and has more than 3000 copies sold.
The book explicates the ethical potentials of Advaita
Vedanta and applies to the problems of modern life.

Interested members may write to Prof. K N Neelakantan Elayath,
Professor of Sanskrit, University of Calicut, KERALA 673635.

Email: neelak3 at y...

Yours,
Vidyasankar
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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: advaita posting on pratigrahaNam
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 18:04:11 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


Namaskaram.
 I sincerely thank Sri Subhanu Saxena for this wonderful explanation.
bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.

----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 04/27/01 06:01 PM -----

 "subhanu your advaita posting on pratigrahaNam
 saxena"
 <subhanu at h...
 ail.com>

 04/27/01
 04:22 PM


> ?He even gave me some personal examples
> ... the only real way of making
> sure that the pratigraha dosham doesnot
> attach to us is by the observance
> everyday of brahma yajna prashnam, where
> one prashnam of the vedas is
> chanted. The "fire" or tapas of this chanting
> burns the dosham away and
> hence is made null and void. This is how the system is
> expected to work. ?


Namo namaha:I was browsing through the advaita list archives, and noticed
the above comments by you, as part of a thread of discussions (I am not
sure
what the original thread was about, but I wanted to mention to you
something
that may be of interest:

The Taittiriya Aranyaka, 3rd prashna 10th Anuvaka (in which purusha suktam
appears as the 12th anuvAka), has a set of mantras called "pratigrahaNa
mantrAh", which are meant to remove the sin incurred when one receives a
gift . Each gift is symbolically ?given? to a deity, to remove the notion
that the receiver is actually receiving anything for himself. Also,
similar
to the kAmo?kArshIt mantra, it is stated that all these acts of giving and
receiving are driven by a 3rd entity kAma, and that the individual is
really
seeking nothing, or gaining anything:

I have broken up the sandhis:

devasya twA savituh prasave ashwinoh bAhubyAm, pUSNO hastAbhyAm
pratigrNhAmi
Having taken the permission of the Divine Savitr, I accept (this gift) with

the arms of the ashwins, and the hands of Pusan.

RAjA twA varuNo nayatu devi daxiNe agneye hiraNyam
Oh devi dakshinA, the king varuna brings you this gift of gold for agni

tenAmritatwamashyAm. Vayo dAtre, mayo mahyamastu pratigrihItre
May I become immortal through this act. May the giver receive nourishment,
may I, the receiver, receive happiness ( by disassociating myself from
receiving this gift)

Ka idam kasmA adAt, kAmah kAmAya, kAmo dAtA, kAmah pratigrhItA, kAmagum
samudram Avisha, kAmena twA pratigrNhAmi. KAmaitatte, eSA te kAma daxiNA.
For who really gives what to whom? (or, it is really PrajApati giving to
prajApati). It is kAma giving to kAmA. KAma is the giver, kAma is the
receiver, the gift enters into the endless ocean that is desire. It is
through kAma that I receive this gift. Oh kAma, this gift is yours, this
dakshina is yours

(Note shatapatha brAhmaNa gives us ?ko vai nAma prajApatih?, ?the pronoun
kah is the name of prajapati?. Also noe the echo with the kAmo?kArSIt
mantra, as well as echoes of ?mA gridhah kasya swidhanam? in Isopanishat)

uttAnah twAngIrasah pratigrNhAtu
May the rishi uttAnah AngIrasa rishi receive this gift
(Note: There is a story in Taittiriya Brahmana 2-2-5 whereby this
particular
rishi was given the gift of the whole earth, but because of his tapas, he
did not incur any sin. Thus, symbolically, by asking this rishi to ?take?
the gift, no trace of sin rests anywhere)



The above mantra.s are recited when the gift is gold, or hiraNyam. The
anuvaka then lists the deities invoked when other gifts are received. Here

the words ?agnaye hiryaNyam? must be replaced by the following:

SomAya vAsah A gift of wealth is offered to
soma
RudrAya gAm Cows to rudra
VaruNAya ashwam Horses to Varuna
PrajApataye puruSam People to prajapati (recited
during kanyAdAna in the
vivAha ceremony)
Manave talpam a pillow/bed to the mind
TwaSTre?jAm A goat to twashtr
PUSNe?vim A sheep to Pushan
nirirityA ashwataragardabhau A zebra to nirririti
Himavato hastinam An elephant to himavan
GandharvApsarAbhyah srkalankaraNe Jewellry and garlands to the
gandharvas
and apsaras
Vishwebhyo devebhyo dhAnyam Grain to the vishwedevas
VAche annam Food to Divine Speech
BrahmaNa odanam Cooked rice to brahman
SamudrAyApah Waters to the ocean
UttAnAyAngIrasA yAnah A vehicle to uttana angirasa
rishi
VaishwAnarAya ratham A chariot to vaishwanara

Of course, these mantras or not meant to just be recited blindly, and the
?sin? suddenly be removed. They are to be recited with full reflection on
the meaning, recognising the actionless nature of atman, and thereby
disassociating oneself from the actual receipt of anything.

I hope this above extract is useful. Please feel free to share it with the
list if you think it is relevant.

Regards

Subhanu

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:19:35 -0400
Subject: Women priests
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Is this sanctioned in the Shastras?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1298000
/1298208.stm

~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"~"
"And what delights can equal those
 That stir the spirit's inner deeps,
 When one that loves but knows not, reaps
 A truth from one that loves and knows."

-From "In Memoriam", Lord Alfred Tennyson


________________________________________________
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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:59:02 -0500
Subject: Re: advaita posting on pratigrahaNam
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


Vaidya Sundaram <Vaidya_Sundaram at I...> wrote:

>----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 04/27/01 06:01 PM -----
>
> "subhanu saxena" <subhanu at h...>
> your advaita posting on pratigrahaNam
.....
>nirirityA ashwataragardabhau A zebra to nirririti

That should be "A mule (ashwatara) and donkey (gardabha) to
nirRti". The case ending in -au indicates the dual number.

Vidyasankar

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 23:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: adhyaasa bhaashhya - shrii saxena's translation (complete text)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-1059961393-988437821=:53761"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


--0-1059961393-988437821=:53761
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

Here is the complete text and translation This is a rough draft. Since
I was doing it over a period (long) of time, there are some style
inconsistencies. Sanskrit text is in ITRANS format. There will be few
errors. Please do correct them.

I do plan to correct them and create a romanized (standard
transliteration) in LaTeX. I have a script (which is 90% done) which in
principal should automatically do it. But this will not be anytime
soon.

I thank Sri Saxena for his great translation.

Ravi

tvat.h pAdAmbujaM archayAmi
paramaM tvAM chintayAmi anvahaM
tvaMiishaM sharaNaM vrajAmi
vachasaa tvAM eva yAche vibho
viixaam me disha saaxushhiiM sakaruNaam
divaiH chiraM prArthitaaM
shambo! loka guro!
madiya manasaH saukyopadeshaM kuru



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--0-1059961393-988437821=:53761
Content-Type: text/plain; name="adhyaasa_bhaashhya.txt"
Content-Description: adhyaasa_bhaashhya.txt
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="adhyaasa_bhaashhya.txt"

Author: Sri Subhanu Saxena (subhanu at h...)
Copyright: Sri Subhanu Saxena (subhanu at h...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Original document of shrii Saxena is at
http://www.geocities.com/ambaal_daasan/bsb/

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Revision 1: Rough draft

- Updated on vR^ishha vaishaaka shukla pa~nchami (sha.nkara jayanti)
 4/28/2001

- Updated by Ravi (miinalochanii at y...)

- MS WORD file converted to ascii text

- Sanskrit text changed to ITRANS 5.2. Please refer to
 http://www.aczone.com/itrans/ for details about ITRANS.

- For completeness original text of bhagavaan.h shrii sha.nkara was
 also added.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


|| hariH AUM ||

0. dhyaana shlokaaH
===================

sha.nkaraM sha.nkaraachaaryaM keshavaM baadaraayaNam.h |
suutra bhaashhya kR^itau vande bhagavantau punaH punaH ||


shruti smR^ti puraaNaanaaM aalayaM karuNaalayam.h |
namaami bhagavdpaadaM sha.nkaraM lokasha.nkaram.h ||


suutra bhaashhya praNetaarau vedaantaabja prabhaakaru
vande parasparaatmaanau baadaraayaNa sha.nkaru

1. Introduction
===============

In the canon of vedaanta litarature, the brahma suutraM occupies a
unique position as the oldest systematic commentary on the
upanishhad-s. Of commentaries on the brahma suutraM, sha.nkara's
commentary stands pre-eminent in elaborating advaita vedaanta
according to his tradition, or sampradaaya. Whilst there is doubt
regarding authorship of some of the works attributed to sha.nkara,
there is universal agreement in the tradition that the bhaashhyaM on
brahma suutraM was compsed by aadi sha.nkarachaarya. This is evidenced
by the fact that the genesis of post sha.nkara schools arises from
sub-commentaries on primarily his brahma suutra bhaashhyam.h. In these
sub-commentaries (of which the so-called bhaamati and vivaraNa schools
are most recognised), the authors profess to be elaborating on
sha.nkara's system of advaita, and clearly identify sha.nkara as the
author of the bhaashhyam.h.

His astonishing introduction to his brahma sutra bhaashhyaM (BSB),
often called the adhyaasa bhaashhyaM, is, in my view, one of the
greatest texts written on vedaanta, and holds the status for me of a
shruti. For in it, we find no quotation from other shaastra in this
introduction to support his statements. They are simply outpourings
from anubhava, or experience, of an enlightened sage, and which appeal
to that saarvatrika-anubhava, or universal experience, that belongs to
each and every one of us.

sha.nkara's adhyaasa bhaashhyaM fully serves the purpose of an
introduction. He succintly manages to summarise all the key points
that will unfold in his brahma suutra bhaashhyaM, and connects them to
the central underlying theme. The them of is work is: "My commentary
will explain how the brahma suutraM identifies the fundamental
obstacle to knowledge, and how the it explains the method used in the
shruti to remove this obstacle, so that ultimate knowledge (which will
be defined), is acquired". At one stroke he covers the aim of the
work, its purpose, and what the answer is to the basic question above.

In summary, sha.nkara clarifies for us that the obstacle to
enlightenment is a misconception on our part, which superimposes
(mixes up) up the real and non-real, which drives an empirical view of
the world as an apparent duality of subjects, objects, and means of
knowing these objects. The misconception is innate to us, and
tradition gives the technical name adhyaasa to this
superimposition. sha.nkara further defines the avidyaa in the Sruti as
this adhyaasa. Once this avidyaa is removed, what is left is vidyaa or
knowledge that is the experience of brahman, the Ultimate
Reality. Therefore, sha.nkara says, the purpose of the shaastra is to
reveal brahman.h by identifying and removing avidyaa or misconceptions,
so that brahman.h can shine of its own accord.

In so doing, in his adhyaasa bhaashhyaM, sha.nkara sows the seed for
all the important aspects of his tradition of advaita:

1) What knowledge gives us knowledge of Ultimate Reality?

2) What is the obstacle to knowledge?

3) What is the nature of this obstacle?

4) How is knowledge of brahman.h attained? What are the means of knowledge,
and why is shruti the ultimate means of knowledge?

5) What is the role and purpose of shaastra in revealing this knowledge?

6) What is the method used by the shaastra to reveal brahman?

If one had the time, one could take each statement in the adhyaasa
bhaashhyaM and unravel it to reveal all of sha.nkara's tradition of
advaita. In this article I will simply give a guided tour of the
contents of the adhyaasa bhaashhyaM line by line, and highlight the
key messages. My rendering of the bhaashhyaM will be as literal and
transparent as possible, so the readers scan judge themselves the true
meaning for them.

adhyaasa bhaashhyaM is a short text, and one can read it in about 10
minutes or so. I have found it invaluable committing it to memory, so
it constantly flows through all my thoughts. I hope by the end of the
article the reader has the same feeling about this text as I.

I have referred in brief to the portions of the bhaashhya discussed at
the start of each section. I have followed the bhaashhyaM in the order
it was written.


2. THE NATURE OF CONFUSION
==========================


2.1 Original text of sha.nkara bhaashhyaM
-----------------------------------------

yushhmat.h asmat.h pratyaya gocharoH vishhaya vishhayinoH tamaH
prakaashavat.h viruddha svaabhavayoH itara itara bhaavaanuppattau
siddhaayaaM tat.h dharmaaNaM api sutaraaM itara itara
bhaavaanupapattiH, ityato asmat.h pratyaya gochare vishhayaani
chidaatmake yushhmat.h pratyaya gocharasya tat.h dharmaaNaaM cha
adhyaasaH, tat.h viparyayena vishhayinaH tat.h dharmaaNaaM cha
vishhaye.adhyaasau mithyeti bhavituM yuktam.h | tathaapi anyonyasmin.h
anyonya aatamakataaM anyonya dharmaaH cha adhyaasaH itara itara
avivekena atyanta viviktayoH dharma dharmiNoH mithyaj~naana nimittaH
satyaanR^ite mithuniikR^itya "ahamidaM" "maamedamiti" naisargiko.ayaM
loka vyavahaaraH |


2.2 Sri Saxena's Translation
----------------------------

yushhmadasmat.h pratyaya ... adhyaaso mithyeti bhavituM yuktam.h

In a manner that is classic of sha.nkara's style, the author of the
bhaashhyaM begins with an objection. The objection runs as follows:
aatman.h is real, and is the eternal subject I . Everything else is not
real, and is perceived as a separate object you (yushhmat.h). How is
it possible to confuse or superimpose (adhyaasa) the distinct concepts
(pratyaya) of subject and object (the "I" and the "you"), and related
attributes (dharma-s), as they are by nature as different as night and
day (tamaH prakaashavat.h)? Such confusion should be impossible
(mithyeti bhavituM yuktaM). sha.nkara's objection simply states that,
in theory, it should be crystal clear to all what reality is, since it
is so different from the unreal, so what is all the fuss about, and
what is the need to write a whole book about reality and how to
perceive it?

sha.nkara's reply
   runs as follows:

tathaapi anyonyasmin ... naisargiko.ayaM loka vyavahaaraH

It is, however, a matter of common experience (loka vyavahaaraH),
that, through lack of discrimination (avivekena), we superimpose
concepts on each other (anyonyasmin.h anyonyaatmakataaM) and their
attributes (anyonyadharmaan.h cha adhyaasa), even though they and
their attributes are utterly distinct in nature (atyanta viviktayoH
dharma-dharmiNoH), impelled by false knowledge (mithyaajnaana
nimittaH), it is an innate human error (naisargikaH) to confuse the
real and the non-real or the "I" and "mine" (satyaanR^ite
mithuniikR^itya, ahaM idaM mamedaM iti).

In other words, sha.nkara tells us, but common experience shows us
that we do it all the time! We see duality where in reality there is
none, we mistake one thing for another every day?. That we do this is
not through any mystery but is innate. The mixing up is
adhyaasa. sha.nkara will later go on to say that this adhyaasa has
always been there, and is therefore beginingless. It is important to
make an important clarification here. sha.nkara proceeds on the same
basis as the shruti, which takes it as axiomatic that brahman.h is the
ultimate reality. We find very few instances where discussions occur
to "prove" that the correct view of the world is that there is an
Ultimate Reality called brahman.h. For sha.nkara and the shruti this
was self evident that aatman.h is self -established (svayaM
prasiddhatvaat.h). Viewed from this transcendental viewpoint of
reality it is clear why sha.nkara views this mixing of the real and
the non real as an error. This is fundamental to understanding
sha.nkara's tradition of advaita. All that is required for knowledge
is to remove this error to reveal brahman.h, and the universe will
naturally be seen in its true light


2.3 A Side Note for the Specialists
------------------------------------

(If you want to stick to the essence of the meaning, skip this
subsection and go next section)


In this passage we find the first divergence of opinion amongst post
sha.nkara commentators. In the panchapaadikaa sub-commentary,
attributed to padmapaada, the word mithyaaj~naana is explained as
"mithyaa cha tat.h aj~naanaM cha", meaning an unreal ignorance. The
other way to decompose this word is as "mithyaa cha tat.h j~naanam
cha", meaning a misconception, or false knowledge. Using the former
definition , the sub-commentator has explained that the cause of this
adhyaasa or avidyaa is some other material cause (upaadaana kaaraNa)
that he defines as a mysterious avidyaa shakti, that is indescribable
(anirvachaniiya), and inert (jaDaatmikaa). The later writers have used
the term mulaavidyaa, or Root Ignorance, for this material cause, and
equate it with the term maayaa. This gives a different flavour to the
nature of avidyaa than a literal reading of mithyaaj~naana. The
question as to whether sha.nkara really meant just false knowledge or
something more mysterious is the subject of great debate. This is not
the place to go in to this in detail. I will be explaining the
adhyaasa bhaashhyaM using the literal meaning of simply false
knowledge.


3. HOW IS adhyaasa DEFINED?
==========================


3.1 Original Text Continuation
-------------------------------

aaha - ko.ayamadhyaaso naameti | uchyate - smR^itiruupaH paratatra
puurvadR^ishhTaavabhaasaH | taM kechit.h anyatraanyadharmaadhyaasa -
iti vadanti | kechittu yatra yadadhyaasastadvivekaagrahanibhandhano
bhrama - iti || anye tu yatra yadadhyaasastasyaiva vipariita
dharmatvakalpanaaM aachaxate; iti | sarvathaapi
tvanyasyaanyadharmaavabhaasataaM na vyabicharati | tathaacha
loke.anubhavaH - shuktikaa hi rajatavadavabhaasate, ekashchandraH
saddvitiyavaditi |


3.2 Sri Saxena's Translation
----------------------------

aaha - ko.ayaM adhyaaso nameti ... ekah chandraH saddvitiiyavat iti

sha.nkara now proceeds to give various definitions accepted by the
tradition as follows, and tries to identify the underlying theme:

In response to the question, so, what is adhyaasa (ko.ayam adhyaaso
naameti), sha.nkara replies that it is the nature of something
remembered (smR^iti ruupah), or the impression of something seen in
the past (paratra puurvadR^ishhTaavabhaasah). By this he wishes to
confirm that it is a mental notion. He further goes on to give 3
definitions from tradition:

 i. Some say it is simply the superimposing the qualities of one thing
 (anyadharmaadhyaasah) on another (anyatra)

 ii. Others say it is a a confusion of our faculty to discriminate (tat
 vivekaagraha-nibandhano bhrama iti)

iii. Others further says it is the superimposing 2 things and their
 attributes that are of opposite nature (tasyaiva vipariita
 dharmatva-kalpanaaM aachaxate iti)


sha.nkara then explains that the common thread running through all
definitions is that of confusing one thing and its attributes with
another (anyasya anydharmaavabhaasataaM na vyabhicharati). For, it is
a matter of common experience (tathaa cha loke anubhavah), where we
all have confused one thing for another. Two examples are given:
confusing silver for nacre (shuktikaa hi rajatavat.h avabhaasate), and
when, due to a trick of the light, one moon is seen as two (ekaH
chandra sad-dvitiiyavat iti)

Put simply, our ignorance is confusing one thing for another, which in
the context of vedaanta, is confusing the world of duality for the
real world, whereas the real world is one where no duality
exists. This confusion is an experience, and therefore its existence
does not need to be proved or disproved. suresshvara says this in his
vaartikaa:

ataH pramaaNato.ashakyaa.avidyaa.asyeti viixitum.h
kiidR^ishhii vaa kuto vaasaavanubhuutyekaruupataH

sambandha Vartika 184

In fact, one can never know ignorance as belonging to any one, neither
determine its nature nor conceive how it can possibly be at all, for
it is essentially the nature of experience itself

(by the way, this affirms that, in sha.nkara's tradition of advaita,
it is futile trying to establish the cause of avidyaa, as, once it is
recognised and removed , it is seen to never have existed at all! This
is why sha.nkara never taxes himself with detailed discussions
concerning where does this avidyaa come from, and to whom does it
belong, as these matters become totally irrelevant once atman is
known. Later followers of sha.nkara chose not to let the matter rest,
hence the elaborate theories regarding the root cause of avidyaa, and
various discussions of the locus of avidyaa. One imagines that, should
these discussions have happened in front of sha.nkara, he would have
given them short shrift by saying something like "It is about brahman,
not avidyaa! Don't get distracted!")



4. Further clarification that adhyaasa is possible
=================================================


4.1 Original text continuation
------------------------------

kathaM punaH pratyagaatmanyavishhaye.adhyaaso
vishhayataddharmaaNaam.h? sarvo hi puro.avasthite vishhaye
vishhayaantaramadhyasyati, yushhmatpratyayopetasya cha
pratyagaatmano.avishhayatvaM braviishhi | uchyate na
taavadayamekaantenaavishhayaH, asmatpratyayavishhayatvaat.h;
aparoxatvaa~ncha pratyagaatmaprasiddheH | nachaayamasti niyamaH -
purovasthita eva vishhaye vishhayaa.antaramadhyasitavyamiti;
apratyaxo.api hyaakaashe baalaastalamalinataadyadhyasyanti | evaM
viruddhaH pratyagaatmanyapyanaatmaadhyaasaH |


4.2 Sri Saxena's Translation
----------------------------

kathaM punaH pratyagaatmanyaviSaye ... evaM aviruddhah
pratyagaatmanyapi anaatmaadhyaasaH

To further clarify sha.nkara's statement that adhyaasa is a matter of
common experience, he next raises an objection, which is then
answered. The objection runs as follows:

We can accept the superimposition of two objects in front of us (sarvo
hi puro.avasthite vishhaye vishhayaantaraM adhyasyati). But, how can
the aatman.h that you claim is ever the subject (avishhayatvaM
braviishhi) be confused with something that is the not aatman,
expressed as "you"!

sha.nkara has essentially restated the original objection in a
different way. His reply is as follows:

It is not unusual at all that such superimposition occurs regarding
aatman.h (na taavat.h ayaM ekaantena avishhayaH), for in empirical
life the atman is referred as the object of the "me" notion
(asmatpratyayavishhayatvaat.h aparoxatvaat.h cha). Secondly, there is
no rule that says only two perceived objects in front of one can be
confused (na chaayaM asti niyamah puro.avasthite eva vishhaye
vishhayaantaraM adhyasitavyaM iti). For, the sky is imperceptible, yet
children confuse dirt in the sky as having made the sky dirty
(apratyaxe.api hyaakaashe baalaaH talamalinataat.h adhyasysanti).
Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect that the imperceptible
aatman.h that is the eternal subject, can be confused with objective
phenomena around us. (evaM aviruddhah pratyagaatmanyapi
anaatmaadhyaasah)


5. aadhyasa is avidyaa
======================


5.1 Original Text Continuation
------------------------------

tametaM evaM laxaNaM adhyaasaM paNDitaa avidyeti manyanteH;
tadvivekena cha vastu svaruupa avadhaaraNaM vidyaaM aahuH | tatra evaM
sati yatra yat.h adhyaasaH; tatkR^itena doshheNa guNena vaa
aNumaatreNaapi sa na saMbadhyate |


5.2 Sri Saxena's Translation
----------------------------


tametaM evam laxanam adhyaasam ... aNumaatreNaapi sa na sambadhyate

Now we come to an important part of the bhashhya. sha.nkara here
explicitly defines that confusing of the real and the non real, that
is adhyaasa (tametaM evaM laxaNaM adhyaasaM), that results in the
apparently real world of duality of subjects, objects and means of
knowledge, as being called avidyaa in the shaastras by the learned
(paNDiitaa avidyeti manyante). In contrast, ascertaining the true
nature of things though discrimination is called vidyaa (tat.h
vivekena cha vastu svaruupa avadhaaraNaM vidyaaM aahuH). In addition,
to clarify, where avidyaa operates, it does not in any way affect the
substrate at all as a
   result of the perceived acts, defects, qualities
etc that avidyaa may imply as being atman (tatra evaM sati yatra yat.h
adhyaasah tat.h kR^itena doshheNa guNena vaa aNumaatreNa api sa na
saMbadhyate).

aatman.h is never tainted by the effects of Ignorance.

We find in the vaartikaa-s and kaarikaa-s numerous statements that describe
avidyaa as that which results in a confusion of the real and non
real. There are also descriptions of subtle shades of this false
knowledge (mithyaa jnaana) that is avidyaa (nature of saMshaya, of "I do
not know") etc, but the core definition of avidyaa is that given by
sha.nkara here in the bhaashhyaM. In upedasha saahasrii he beautifully
elaborates his definition, to directly link adhyaasa with the world of
samsaara and duality:

"tvaM paramaatmaanaM santaM asaMsaariNaM saMsaaryahaM asmiiti
vipariitaM pratipadyase, akartaaraM santaM karteti, abhoktaaraM santaM
bhokteti, vidyamaanaM cha avidyamaanamiti, iyam avidyaa" (US II 50)

"You are the non-transmigratory self, but you wrongly think that you
are liable to transmigration. In the same way, not being a doer/agent,
an experiencer, a knower, you mistake yourself to be these. This is
avidyaa"

Sureshwara also beautifully summarises sha.nkara's bhaashhya so far, in
an unrelated verse:

antaryaamii tathaa saaxii sarvaj~naH cha iti avidyayaa
mithyaa adhyaasaiH cha tat.h karyaiH aprameyaM pramiiyate

(BBV 2.3.10)

"That Innner Dweller, The Witness, all knowing and un objectifiable,
appears to become a separate object through the false superimposition
that is aviydaa"

Anywhere the notion of "I am an agent, doer, thinker," arises, then
avidyA is there, as it implies a distinct separate doer/agent/knower,
and an object that is to be done/achieved/known. This leads perfectly
to the next astonishing segment of the adhyaasa bhaashhyam.h.


6. EVEN veda-s ARE IN THE FIELD OF avidyaa
=========================================


6.1. Original text continuation
-------------------------------

tametaM avidyaakhyaM aatma aanaatmanoH itara itara adhyaasaM puraskR^itya
sarve pramaaNa-prameya vyavahaaraaH laukikaaH vaidikaaH cha pravR^ittaaH
sarvaaNii cha shaastraaNi vidhi-pratishhedha-moxaparaaNi | kathaM punaH
avidyaavat.h vishhayaani pratyaxaadiini pramaaNaani shaastraani cha iti |
uchyate dehendriyaadishhu ahaM mama abhimaana rahitasya
praamtR^ivaanupapattau pramaaNa pravR^ittyanupapatteH |
nahiindriyaaNyanupadaaya pratyaxaadi vyavahaara saMbhavati | na cha
adhishhtaanamantareNa indriyaaNaaM vyavahaaraH saMbhavati | na cha
anadhyaasa aatmabhaavena dehena kashchit.h vyaapriyate | na cha etasmin.h
sarvasmin.h asati asaN^gasya aatmanaH praamtR^itvaM upapadhyate | na cha
pramaatR^itvamantareNa pramaaNa pravR^ittirasti | tasmaat.h avidyavat.h
vishhayaaNi eva pratyaxaadini pramaaNaani shaastraaNi cha |


6.2 Sri Saxena's Translation
----------------------------

This statement can be a bombshell for those not acquainted with the
subtler meaning of vedaanta . And was certainly an epiphany for me in
my early vedaanta studies. For, sha.nkara declares without hesitation
that all empirical activities where separate subjects and objects are
perceived, (sarve pramaaNa-prameya vyavahaaraaH), both day to day and
vedic (laukikaaH vaidikaaH cha) operate in the field of avidyaa (tametaM
avidyaakhyaM aatma anaatmanoH itara itara adhyaasaM puraskR^itya). So do
all shastras (sarvaaNii cha shaastraaNi) that pertain to injunctions,
prohibitions and discussions of liberation
(vidhi-pratishhedha-moxaparaaNi). In other words, all discussions of
injunctions, vedic ritual including puuja havan, meditation etc, even
talk of liberation itself are in the field of ignorance. Why is this
so? sha.nkara anticipates that this would be a question, and raises it
himself next as an objection, followed by the answer. The objection
runs as follows:

kathaM punaH avidyaavat.h vishhayaaNi pratyaxaadiini pramaaNaani shaastraani
cha iti |

How can all means of knowledge (pramaaNani) and the shaastra-s have
ignorance as their locus?

The response is as follows:

uchyate dehendriyaadishhu ... pramaaNaani shaastraaNi cha

Since a man without self identification with the body, mind, and
senses etc., cannot become a knower, and as such, the means of
knowledge cannot function for him, (deha indriyaadishhu ahaM mama
abhimaana rahitasya pramaatR^iva anupapattau pramaaNa pravR^itti
anupapatteH). Since perception and other activities (of such a
cogniser) are not possible without accepting the senses etc., as
belonging to him (nahi indriyaaNi anupaadaaya pratyaxaadi vyavahaaraH
saMbhavati). Since the senses cannot function without the body as a
substrate (na cha adhishhThaanamantareNa indriyaaNaM vyavahaaraH
saMbhavati). and, since nobody engages in any activity with a body
that has not the idea of the self superimposed on it (na cha
anadhyasta aatmabhaavena dehena kashchit.h vyaapriyate), even though the
self it is unattached and cannot become a knower unless there are all
of these above notions(na cha etasmin.h sarvasmin.h asati asaN^gasya
atmanaH pramaatR^itvaM upapadyate). and since the means of knowledge
cannot function without a "knower" (na cha pramaatR^itvaM antareNa,
pramaaNa-pravR^ittirasti), it therefore follows that all means of
knowledge, such as direct perception as well as the shastras are in
the field of avidyaa, as they are based on the basic adhyaasa that one
is a distinct knower (tasmaat avidyaavat.h vishhayaaNi eva pratyaxaadiini
pramaaNaani shaastraaNi cha)

Put simply, for the means of knowledge to operate, it requires the
notion of a doer, and the notion of a doer is the result of
superimposition on the unattached aatman. In other words, as soon as
one falsely identifies the self as a pramaatR^i, i.e., an agent, or
doer, then all fields that operate are in the field of
avidyaa. shaastra, means of knowledge etc., since they require a
distinct doer, are therefore bound in the field of avidyaa.

6.3 Some Concepts from nyaaya shaastra
------------------------------------

For those not familiar, the concepts of praamtr prameya etc are defined
in the nyaaya shaastra as follows:

pramaatR^i:
---------

yasya prepsaajihaasaaprayuktasya pravR^ittih sa pramaataa

One who is urged to get or avoid something and therefore engages in
enquiry (because he wants to know things correctly) is pramaatR^i


pramaaNam.h:
----------

yenaarthaM pramiNoti tat.h pramaaNam.h

That by means of which he ascertains his object is pramaaNam.h.

prameya:
-------

yo.arthaH pratiiyate tat.h prameyam.h

The object ascertainable is prameya

pramiti:
-------

yadarthavij~naanaM saa pramitiH

The correct ascertainment of the object is pramiti.


These concepts are fundamental to enquiry of reality in the Indian
systems of philosophy. We are a sea of pramaatR^i-s in a world full of
objects to be known, known as pramaaNa-prameya vyavahaara. It is
advaita, particularly as expressed in sha.nkara's school, where it is
declared that such distinction of the world into a duality of distinct
subjects and objects is an illusion, driven by the innate trait of
superimposing on the atman.h the concept of pramaatR^i-hood. gauDapaada
declares elsewhere, "maayaamaatraM idaM dvaitaM, advaitaM paramaarthataH",
this world of duality is false, the supreme reality is advaita. This
process of confusing the atman.h as distinct pramaatR^i is the subject
of adhyaasa bhaashhyam.h.


7) IDENTITY WITH ANIMALS IN EMPRICIAL LIFE
==========================================


7.1 Original Text Continuation
------------------------------

pashvaadibhiH cha avisheshhaat.h | yathaa hi pashvaadayaH
shabdaadibhiH shrotraadiinaaM sambhande sati shabdaadi vij~naane
pratikule jaate tato nivartante anukuule cha pravartante yathaa
daNDodyakaraM purushham abhi mukhaM upalabhya maaM hantuM ayaM
ichchhatiiti phalaayituM aarabhante harita tR^iNa puurNa paaNi
upalabhya taM parti abhi mukhii bhavanti evaM purushhaa api
vyutpannachittaaH kruura dR^ishhTinaakroshataH svan^gaodyatakaraan.h
balavata upalabhya tato nivartante ataH samaanaH pashvaadibhiH
purushhaaNaaM pramaaNa prameya vyavahaaraH | pashvaadinaaM
prasidhho.aviveka puraH saraH pratyaxaadi vyavahaaraH tat.h saamaanya
darshanaat.h vyutpattimataaM api purushhaaNaam pratyaxaadi vyavahaaraH
tat.h kaalaH samaanya iti nishchIyate |

7.2 Sri Saxena's Translation
----------------------------

pashvaadibhishcha avisheshhaat.h ... tat kaalah samaanah iti
nischiiyate


The world as perceived when the notions of pramaatR^i, prameya and
pramaaNa are assumed to exist is called the empirical standpoint in
the sha.nkara's bhashya-s (vyavahaara drshhTii). When these notions
have been abandoned, the world is in its true light from the
standpoint of supreme reality (paramaartha drshhTii). It is vital
always to understand in sha.nkara's bhashyas which standpoint is being
adopted for an argument, otherwise it can lead to massive
confusion. In the next section of adhyaasa bhaashhyaM, sha.nkara
amplifies the point that the empirical world conjured through this
avidyaa is a matter of common experience that we share with all living
beings.

For animals, when they hear a sound they believe is dangerous, they
turn away, and move towards that which seems safe (yathaa hi
pashvaadayaH shabdaadibhiH shrotraadiinaaM sambandhe sati
shabdaadivij~naane pratikuule jaate tato navartante, anukuule cha
pravartante), and they turn towards someone holding green grass, and
shy away from one holding a stick, thinking that they will be beaten
(yathaa daNDodyakaraM purushhaM abhimukhaM upalabhya, maaM hantuM ayaM
icchhatiiti phalaayituM aarabhante, harita-tR^iNa-puurNa-paaNiM
upalabhya taM pratyabhimukhii bhavanti). In the same way wise humans
are repelled by strong, riotous people with menacing looks and swords
drawn, but drawn to those opposite in nature (evaM purushha api
vyutpannachittaaH kruuradrshhTiin aakroshatah kaDgodyatakaraan.h
balavata upalabhya tato nivartante, tatvipariitaan.h prati
pravartante). In this way, the behaviour of
   humans and animals in the
empirical sphere of subjects and objects is identical (ataH samaanaH
pashvaadibhiH purushhaaNaaM pramaaNa-prameya-vyavahaaraH)

To further clarify, sha.nkara goes on to say that it is of course well
known that animals use their means of perception without the benefit
of discrimination etc. (pashvaadiinaaM cha prasiddho.avivekapurassarah
pratyaxaadivyavahaaraH). From this we can conclude that from the
empirical standpoint, the means of perception employed by the wise and
animals are identical (tat.h samaanya darshanaat.h vyutpattimataaM api
purushhaaNaaM pratyaxaadivyavahaaraH tatkaalaH samaanaH iti
nischiiyate)

So, what is the point of the above? Simply to say that the instinctive
behaviour of humans in the empirical field is due to a series of
misconceptions due to a non-discrimination between the aatman.h and
the non-aatman.h, and that humans share this behaviour with the rest
of the animal kingdom. Now humans, apart from their faculty of
discrimination, must be different somehow, and therefore not subject
to avidyaa? sha.nkara deals with this objection in the next section.


8. shastra-s are ever bound in the field of avidyaa
===================================================


8.1 Original Text Continuation:
-------------------------------

shaastriiya tu vyavahaare yadyapi buddhipuurvakaarii
naaviditvaa.a.atmanaH paraloka sambhandhaM adhikriyate tathaapi na
vedaanta vedyaM ashanaayaadi atiitaM apetabrahmaxatraadibhedam.h
asaMsaarya aatmatattvaM adhikare.apexyate anupayogaat.h adhikaara
virodhaat.h cha | praak.h cha tatha bhuutaatma vij~nAnaat.h
pravartamaanaM shaastraM avidyaavat.h vishhayatvaM naativartate |
tathaahhi "braahmaNo yajeta" ityaadini shaastraaNi aatmani
varna-ashrama vayoH avasthadi visheshha adhyaasaM aashritya
pravartante |


8.2 shrii Saxena's Translation:
-------------------------------

shaastriye tu ??.aashritya pravartante

sha.nkara says that it is indeed true, that one must have some notion
of self as distinct from this life and the hereafter to perform
karma-s (shaastriye tu vyavahaare yadyapi buddhipuurvakaarii
naaviditvaa aatmanaH paralokasambandhaM adhikriyate). However, such a
person has not cognized the true self which, according to vedaanta, is
beyond hunger and thirst, beyond the distinctions of caste, and beyond
the notions of rebirth from one life to the next (tathaapi na
vedaantavedyaM, ashanaayaadyatiitaM, apetabrahmaxatraadibhedaM,
asamsaaryaatmatattvaM adhikaare apexyate). In fact, the ultimate
knowledge that aatman.h as a non-agent is not only a useless notion for
one engaged in acts to be performed, but is in fact diametrically
opposite to it! (anupayogaat.h, adhikaaravirodhaat.h cha).

So, all human behaviour, whether secular, vedic or employing means of
valid knowledge are in the realm of avidyaa. Now, it is clarified that
even the shaastra laying out injunctions also operate in the field of
ignorance. sha.nkara says that:

For, before the dawn of real knowledge, all shaastra-s can never
transcend the field of avidyaa (praak.h cha tathaa bhuutaatma
vij~naanaat.h pravartamaanaM shaastraM avidyaavadvishhayatvaM
naativartate). For, in the example injunction "a brahmin should offer
sacrifice", the notion of caste, being an agent, being at a certain
stage in life, etc. have first to be superimposed on the changeless,
eternal aatman.h before such a sentence can make any sense! (tathaa hi
braahmaaNo yajeta ityaadiini shaastraaNi aatmani
varNaashramayo.avasthaadi-visheshhaadhyaasaM aashritya pravartante)

This section can be distressing to those who have, all their life,
depending on performing japa, puuja, homa, or following injunctions as
a means to secure revelation. In contrast, such activities must
presuppose a distinct notion "I am doing such and such", which puts
them in the field of ignorance. sha.nkara elsewhere explains that,
when such acts are performed without desire for fruit, by recognising
the there is no "doer", then they inculcate the desire for
brahmavidya, which takes the aspirant closer to realising the message
of vedaanta.


9) VARIOUS EXAMPLES OF adhyaasa ELABORATED
=========================================

9.1 Original Text Continuation
------------------------------

adhyaaso naama atasminstadbuddhih ityavochaama | tadyatha putra
bhaaryaadishhu vikaleshhu sakaleshhu vaa, aham eva vikalaH sakalo vaa
iti bahyadharmaan.h atmanyadhyasyati | tathaa dehadharmaan.h
sthuulo.ahaM, kR^isho.ahaM, gauro.ahaM; tishhThaami, gachhaami,
langhayaami cha iti | tathaa indriyadharmaan.h muukaH, kaaNaH,
kliibaH, badhiraH, andho.ahaM iti | tathaa antahkaraNadharmaan.h kaama
- sankalpa vichikitsaadhyavasaayaadiin.h | evaM ahampratyayinaM
asheshhasvaprachaarasaaxiNii pratyagaatmani adhyas taM cha
pratyagaatmaanaM sarvasaaxiNaM tadviparyayeNa
antaHkaraNaadishvadhyasyati |

9.2 shrii Saxena's Translation
-------------------------------

adhyaaso naama ... adhyasyati.

sha.nkara now gives various examples of this adhyaasa, which he
defines again as the cognition of one thing as something else
(adhyaaso naama atasminstadbuddhih ityavochaama). The first example is
one where, when family members are sick or well, we feel sick or well
too, because of the attachment (tadyathaa putrabhaaryaadishhu
vikaleshhu sakaleshhu vaa, aham eva vikalaH sakalo vaa iti
bahyadharmaan.h atmanyadhyasyati). The next example relates to
attributes of the body (tathaa dehadharmaan.h), where we say "I am
fat", or "I am thin", or "I am fair"; "I stand, I go, I limp" etc.
(sthhuulo.ahaM, kR^isho.ahaM, gauro.ahaM; tishhThaami, gachhaami,
langhayaami cha iti). The next examples relate to the senses and
organs (tathaa indriyadharmaan.h), such as 'I am dumb, I am one-eyed,
I am a eunuch, I am deaf, or I am blind (muukaH, kaaNaH, klIbaH,
badhiraH, andho.aham iti). Finally, the attributes of the internal
organ , when one superimposes the notions of will, doubt, perseverance
etc (tathaa antahkaraNadharmaan.h: kaama - sankalpa
vichikitsaadhyavasaayaadiin.h).

In this way, one firstly superimposes the internal organ possesed of
the ego notion, on the innermost aatman.h which is the eternal Witness
(evaM ahampratyayinaM asheshhaswaprachaarasaaxiNii pratyagaatmani
adhyasa), and then in the opposite direction, one superimposes on the
internal organ that aatman.h which opposed to non-aatman, and is the
witness of everything (taM cha pratyagaatmaanaM sarvasaaxiNaM
tadviparyayeNa antahkaraNaadishvadhyasyati).

Here, sha.nkara comes full circle, and reiterates the opening section
of adhyaasa bhaashhyaM, showing how the aatman.h, the Witness that is
ever unattached, can be confused to be the notion "me", and be
confused with the non-aatman.h expressed as objects, or the notion
"you". The inner organ referred to by sha.nkara is none other than the
manas, or mind (see sha.nkara's commentary on BSB 2-3-32). It is
possible that sha.nkara had in mind the famous verse in shvetaashvatara
upanishhad, which describes aatman.h as saaxii or witness:

eko devaH sarvabhuuteshhu guuDhaH sarvavyaapii sarvabhuutantaraatma
karmaadhyaxaH sarvabhuutaadhivaasaH, saaxii chetaa krevievo nirguNashcha
 ^^^^^^^^(FIX ME)
(shve 1-6)

That one shining One is hidden in all beings, is all pervasive and the
innermost aatman.h of all. It is the overseer of all actions, the
indweller in all beings, the Witness, Pure Consciousness, that which
is all that is left (when avidyaa removed), and is beyond all
qualities.

These examples only are given to show it is a matter of common
experience that we mistake one thing for another. Elsewhere, the
example of the rope and snake is given. In particular, we confuse the
aatman.h with that which is non-aatman.h. Until this basic confusion
is removed, enlightenment is not possible. This is how sha.nkara wraps
up his adhyaasa bhaashhyaM and sets up his commentary on the brahma
suutram.h.


10) THE PURPOSE OF brahma sUtra and sha.nkara's COMMENTARY
===========================================================

10.1 Original Text Continuation
--------------------------------

evaM ayaM anaadiH ananto naisargikaH adhyaasaH mithhyaa pratyaya
ruupaH kartR^itva-bhoktR^itva-pravartakaH sarva-loka-pratyaxaH | asya
anartha hetoH prahaaNaaya atmaikatva vidyaa pratipattaye sarve
vedaantaa aarabhyante | yathaa chaayaM arthaH sarveshhaaM
vedaantaanaaM, tathaa vayaM asyaaM shaariirika-miimaamsaayaaM
pradarshayishhyaamaH ||

10.2 shrii Saxena's Translation
-------------------------------

The purpose of the brahma suutraM and sha.nkara's commentary is to
expose the fundamental flaw that is avidyaa, and remove it

evaM ayaM ... pradarshayishhyaamaH

In wrapping up, sha.nkara re-iterates all the main elements of
adhyaasa, and the results, saying:

Thus occurs this superimposition, or adhyaasa, which is beginningless
and endless (anaadiH anantaH), which is innate (naisargikaH
adhyaasaH), which is of the nature of a false notion or knowledge
(mithhyaa pratyaya ruupaH), is the basis for all notions of agentship
and enjoyership (kartR^itva-bhoktR^itva-pravartakaH), and is a matter
of common knowledge to all of us (sarva-loka-pratyaxaH). To eradicate
this fundamental source of destruction of true knowledge (asya anartha
hetoH prahaaNaaya), and establish the unity of aatman.h (atmaikatva
vidyaa pratipattaye), all the vedaanta-s are begun (sarve vedaantaa
aarabhyante). That this is the purport of all the vedaanta texts, we
shall begin this work on the shaariirika miimaamsa, known as the
brahma suutraM (yathaa chaayaM arthaH sarveshhaaM vedaantaanaaM,
tathaa vayaM asyaaM shaariirika-miimaamsaayaaM pradarshayishhyaamaH).

In summarising, sha.nkara, restates the basic nature of adhyaasa, and,
more importantly that this avidyaa is the only obstacle to true
knowledge. Therefore, hew declares, the purpose of all the vedaanta
texts is simply to remove this avidyaa, and establish aatman.h or
brahman.h as the only reality. As such the shaastra-s are called the
Ultimate pramaNa (antyaM pramaaNaM), because they
   remove
misconceptions that come from Ignorance. For, once these
misconceptions are remeoved, aatman.h will shine of its accord, and
there will be nothing more to be done

11. CONCLUSION
===============

In his brief introduction, sha.nkara tells us the reason we cannot
attain enlightenment. It is because it is in our nature to mix up the
real and not real, and therefore perceive a world of duality with
multiple knowers/doers/subjects and things to be
known/done/objects. In particular, we falsely confuse the eternal
aatman, that is our innermost self and is The Witness with no role in
empirical life, to be acting as an agent . This confusion is innate to
us, and is a matter of common experience requiring no proof. It is is
beginningless and endless in the sphere of the empirical
universe. This confusion, or superimposition is the basic ignorance
that results in this world of duality. The world of duality fashioned
by avidyaa is termed to be maayaa, or illusion, as it can only be
perceived once this basic superimposition has occurred, and all
activities including the secular and vedic fall into the field of
ignorance as they must presuppose a distinct doer. The purpose of the
vedaanta texts is to point out this ignorance as essentially the nature
of a false mental notion, and remove all misconceptions, to reveal the
nature of aatman. a thorough understanding of adhyaasa bhaashhyaM,
therefore, is vital to understanding the texts of vedaanta and
sha.nkara's bhaashhya-s in particular. It is for this reason that this
text is held in such high regard, and deserves to be studied by all
serious students of vedAnta.

|| hariH AUM ||

shrii

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 00:12:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Samudra Manthana
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


just a quick note, today was Shankaracharya Jayanti and in honor of this
auspcious day, I would like to announce a new feature on our website.

It has been a longstanding wish of some of our readers that we provide
some kind of dictionary of Sanskrit terms. To this end I've installed
some software that can be used for a collaborative online dictionary or
encyclopedia. I've called this project "Samudra Manthana" Just as the
Devas and the Asuras churned up the ocean to extract amrit, I hope we can
extract amrit from the ocean of shastras.

How it works is quite simple. You start from the introductory page
(http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/sm/) It looks like a regular HTML page
with links on it. If you click on one of the links and the page it refers
to exists, you are taken there. If not, you are given a form where you
can add the content yourself. In your writeup you can include terms
in square brackets [like this] and they will be converted into new
links. This way you can start with a high level outline and fill in the
details later.

It sounds complicated but it isn't really, especially if you know a little
bit about HTML. I would like to see people start to use this. Start
making links for all the words you would like to see defined. If you can
provide the deinition yourself (even a partial one) do it else leave it
blank and someone else can fill it in later.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Sakethraman Mahalingam
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:39:53 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 04/30/01 11:35 AM -----

 <bh10246 at b... Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 amton.edu>

 04/28/01 09:30
 PM


Hello,
[ ... ]
I am Sakethraman Mahalingam, a student at Binghamton University. I am
presently finishing up my Masters degree this August and (most likely) I
will be going to Georgia Tech for a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering.

To me, Indian philosophy and history is a pastime/hobby. I have been
trying to comprehend the entire gamut of Indian thought for the past five
years and not surprisingly, I find myself ever more so confused and thus
more curious to understand things better. The first time I really
understood a wee bit of Advaita was a year back. Until then, I was, in
what you could call engulfed in Maaya.

Now after all the reading and discussion, I am at a stage where I think I
have to put my knowledge to action (as Rajaji says, jnana without bhakthi
is useless).

Thus, I think my interest in Advaita is more than a pastime/hobby.

Hope to participate in enlightening discussions.

Best regards
Sakethraman Mahalingam

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:28:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Women priests
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Shuba wrote:

> Is this sanctioned in the Shastras?
>

The short answer is no, it isn't. I don't know where they came up with
the idea that it is. Actually it seems they are recycling the same bogus
arguments the Arya Samaj unsuccessfully made a century ago.

"..points out that women priests were written about in the sacred Vedic
texts.
But later men dominated the profession, declaring that priests could only
be male and only from a particular Hindu caste."

The Arya Samaj today is a moribund and irrelevant organization. Why
assume repeating their mistakes is going to have any different outcome.

 As we discussed once before, approximately 4% of the Vedic Rshis have
apparently female names. But it is a huge stretch to deduce from that
they are "priests". As far as I know there is no literary or historical
evidence of any such women priests. And yet we see women participating in
all kinds of dharmic activities. For example:

1. In the Vaishnava Pushtimarga sampradaya, spiritual authority is held
by the descendents of Vallabhacharya its' founder. Several female
Goswamis such as Indira Betiji and Nikunjalata Betiji give discourses on
the Bhagavata which are attended by thousands of people. Are they "women
priests?"

2. My wifes aunt last year did a vrata called in Gujarati Randal tedwu
("carrying the Goddess Randal") at the end of which she invited many
guests inclding us and performed a puja. Was she a "woman priest?"

3. My mother belongs to a Sai Baba bhajan group which is about 3/4
female. They meet in different peoples homes each thursday and at the end
of each session, the host or hostess does the arati. Another case of
"women priests?"

Obviously there are a huge range of ritual activities in Hinduism, many of
which are performed by women without any complaints. So why at this time
are these particular women usurping this particular form of priesthood?
To understand this, we have to examine contemporary Indian society and the
position of priests and women in it.

Here are some quotes,
"...interest stems from a shoddy service performed by a male priest at a
ceremony after her father-in-law died, 10 years ago.

'He didn't explain anything and rushed everything,' she says. 'So, I
wanted to learn and explain to people as much of the ceremony as I could.'"

"Prabhakar Balkrishan Karambelkar recently had the sad occasion to call
for a priest when his wife died, and deliberately chose a woman priest....
'They were more honest, sincere and the clarity with which they performed
the ceremony was also refreshing,' he says."

It appears the major complaint people have with the traditional purohit
is understanding. He isn't "clear". He doesn't "explain." This it
must be said, is often true As we discussed earlier a low quality of
consumer results in a low quality of producer. With their 4.5 months of
training, these women probably do know as much as some village pande. In
the land of the blind, the woman with one eye is queen. But is that the
standard which should be aimed for? Some course which may not even be
based on an authentic reading of the shastras is no substitute to the
lifetime our learned shastris put into learning. If one were
truly interested in improving the quality of the priests wouldn't it make
more sense to put ones money and resources into supporting them? But that
won't happen, the dirty little secret the Indian middle class doesn't want
to admit is although they like to make speeches and wave flags about how
"spiritual" their culture is, there is actually very little respect for
those who actually make it happen.

The article mentions this:

"The growing popularity of women priests is also being linked to the fact
that men are now attracted to more lucrative careers."

"Real men" are doctors and engineers and wear suits and ties. They are
too busy to bother with girly activities like pujas. But as a leisure
activity for some bored housewife, it is ok. Of course they are tolerant
of this. It is the easiest thing in the world to be tolerant about
something which you don't care about or have any stake in. Far from being
a victory for womens rights, this trend actually underscores how sexist
middle class society is. What's going to happen when the daughters and
granddaughters of these women become doctors and engineers themselves?
Then who will be the priests? If religion just becomes a matter of what
one feels like doing what will happen when people don't feel like doing
it?

I have first hand knowledge of this attitude. When I was getting married,
parents saw my biodata and were jumping up and down to introduce me to
their daughters. But when they actually saw me you could almost see the
smoke coming out of their ears as their tiny minds tried to cope with the
concept of someone being traditional and a worldly sucess at the same
time. The sad thing is the daughters themselves often didn't mind. In
the end I did find someone, my dear Jyoti, who supports me in all that I
do. And I in return do my best to support her. She knows that and that's
why she has never felt the need to copy me.

In the end this is what will keep our traditions alive. Men and women
doing their given duty not out of selfishness but out of a sense of
obligation and helping others with their obligations.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:53:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, S. V. Subrahmanian wrote:

> Thus we see that there is whole class of perception that
> is not sensory in nature and infact has nothing to do with
> any organ at all as in say recollection. Therefore
> pratyaksha need not be sensory perception only.
>

Advaita Vedanta follows the lead of the Bhatta Mimamsakas in terms of
pramanyavada. They treat what you are describing--anupalabhdhi as a
separate pramana. I think. I'll see if I can dig up a formal definition
of this. (Unfortunately most Sanskrit books have no index so it might
take some time.)

> The above argument is porous (I can feel it), but without
> studying nyAya and schools like mimamsa and vivarna trying to
> write an authoritative statement of pramANas will be futile.
> And I don't know nyAya.
>

I did find out the Nyaya definition of pratyaksha. This is from the
siddhantamuktavali on karika 52 of the Bhashapariccheda. (RK Matha
edition.) Unfortunately the Sanskrit text was not given so I can't vouch
for the accuracy of the translation.

"Perception is knowledge produced by the organs. Although all knowledge
whatsoever is produced by the organ called mind, yet the aphorism means
that perception is that knowledge to which the organs _as_ organs are the
instruments. God's perception [which is eternal not produced] does not
come within the purview of the definition; for so it has been stated in
the aphorism, 'perception is that knowledge which is produced by the
connection between organs and objects and is infallible. It is
indescribable as well as definite.' [Nyayasutra I.i.4] Or perception is
that knowledge of which knowledge is not the instrument.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Sri Jaldharji,

> > Thus we see that there is whole class of perception that
> > is not sensory in nature and infact has nothing to do with
> > any organ at all as in say recollection. Therefore
> > pratyaksha need not be sensory perception only.
> >
>
> Advaita Vedanta follows the lead of the Bhatta Mimamsakas in terms of
> pramanyavada. They treat what you are describing--anupalabhdhi as a
> separate pramana. I think. I'll see if I can dig up a formal definition
> of this. (Unfortunately most Sanskrit books have no index so it might
> take some time.)

No. anupalabdhi is different. That you don't see say an elephant on your
table (hopefully it is not there -:)), that perception of the abhava of an
object is anupalabdhi. Whereas when I say I am happy - tell me which organ is
employed? When I say I am happy - is it a perception of a non-existing thing?
Neither. It is a direct perception of a state in which "I am" is loaded as it
were. This requires one to be witness to perceive this. This is also
pratyaksha.

Now in the above, one may say that I am happy is a mental state, and any
perception is a mental state, in which case can a mental state be an object of
another mental state which will lead to infinite regression? Or is the mind to
be treated as an organ and hence call witness perception also direct perception
through the organ of the mind? All these questions need to be addressed. They
have been dealt with in detail in vedAnta paribhAshA. I am not able to find
time to read thoroughly which is why I gave a simplistic answer (reflective of
my understanding).

> > The above argument is porous (I can feel it), but without
> > studying nyAya and schools like mimamsa and vivarna trying to
> > write an authoritative statement of pramANas will be futile.
> > And I don't know nyAya.
> >
>
> I did find out the Nyaya definition of pratyaksha. This is from the
> siddhantamuktavali on karika 52 of the Bhashapariccheda. (RK Matha
> edition.) Unfortunately the Sanskrit text was not given so I can't vouch
> for the accuracy of the translation.
>
> "Perception is knowledge produced by the organs. Although all knowledge
> whatsoever is produced by the organ called mind, yet the aphorism means
> that perception is that knowledge to which the organs _as_ organs are the
> instruments. God's perception [which is eternal not produced] does not
> come within the purview of the definition; for so it has been stated in
> the aphorism, 'perception is that knowledge which is produced by the
> connection between organs and objects and is infallible. It is
> indescribable as well as definite.' [Nyayasutra I.i.4] Or perception is
> that knowledge of which knowledge is not the instrument.

Yes. vedAnta and nyAya part ways in the way they treat pramANams. In my
understanding nyAya does not consider even verbal testimony as being capable of
producing direct perception which vedAnta does like "You are the tenth man".
vedAnta paribhAsha treats nyAya as its purvapakshi and answers the questions.

Some day I should learn time management from you. Finding it difficult to
spend a continuous quantum of time on the subject matter. Maybe there can be a
discussion on how people find time (innovative ways) to study scriptures amidst
their daily duties. I don't claim to achieve anything great in life, but time
just slips away -:)

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

__________________________________________________
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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:40:13 -0400
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


>The other kind of pratyaksha is the witness perception. Cognitions
>like "I am happy", "I am blind" , "I am sad" etc fall under this category.

One can differentiate among such cognitions too. A person who was once
able to see and has later grown blind relies on his or her memory of
having seen physical objects. However, a person who is born blind can
"know" of his or her blindness only because everyone around says so.
It might be rather cruel to do an experiment, but if a blind man grows
up under circumstances that never let him know he is blind, how would
he know about it?

Cognitions like "I am happy" and "I am sad" are more intuitive, but are
always known only through the mind and intellect. And usually, these are
in response to external stimuli, which are felt through one of the sense
organs.

There are two different views among Advaitins, regarding the mind or
the internal organ. In the Bhamati school, following Vacaspati Misra's
Bhamati, the manas or antaHkaraNa is said to be an organ, like the five
sense organs, and therefore material. In the Vivarana school, following
Prakasatman's Vivarana on Padmapada's Pancapadika, the sense organs act
as channels of information, which is fed to the antaHkaraNa, which then
undergoes a transformation (vRtti) into the form of the object. Here too,
the antaHkaraNa is made of subtle material.

The word pratyaksha is not usually used to cover cognitions that are not
directly known through the sense organs. That is why the realization of
Brahman is often called brahma-sAkshAtkAra, but not brahma-pratyaksha.
On the other hand, Sankaracharya often uses pratyaksha to mean Sruti.
This is because Sruti (the Vedas) is that which is heard, and is known
through the sense-faculty of hearing. So one has to be careful about the
context in which the word is used (or not used).

Vidyasankar

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>From "Stig Lundgren" <slu at C...>
Subject: Sringeri Jagadgurus
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 04:44:19 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0D1F9.6273EC00"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Stig Lundgren" <slu at C...>


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0D1F9.6273EC00
Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Namaste to you all,

I came across the following new and truly brilliant web-site on the Sringer=
i Jagadgurus: www.jagadgurus.org . Here you can find a lot of useful inform=
ation and great teachings, and there are two beautiful movies (25 minutes =
and 22 minutes respectively) on the Sankaracharyas. Everyone interested in =
traditional Advaita Vedanta should visit this site!

Best regards
Stig Lundgren


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0D1F9.6273EC00
Content-Type: text/html;
 charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" http-equiv=3DContent-Type=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Namaste to you all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I came across the following new and truly brilliant web=
-site=20
on the Sringeri Jagadgurus: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.jagadgurus.org">www.jagadgurus.org</A> . Here you can fi=
nd a=20
lot of useful information and  great teachings, and there are two beau=
tiful=20
movies (25 minutes and 22 minutes respectively) on the Sankaracharyas. Ever=
yone=20
interested in traditional Advaita Vedanta should visit this site!</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Best regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Stig

>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: RE: Women priests
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:43:44 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaste,

Along this line, then what is the difference between a Swami and a Priest?

I met an ordained female swami at the Sivananda Ashram in upstate New York
last year.

Is this an example of the 'what is a priest' confusion you are talking
about, Jaldhar?

Gregg

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>From =?iso-8859-1?q?Malolan=20Cadambi?= <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:44:55 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Women priests
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Malolan=20Cadambi?= <owner-advaita-l at L...>


sri:

Dear Sri Vidyasankar avl,

adiyen has a small follow-up in this thread.

You opine:

> 3. Priests who officiate at these rituals have to be people who
> live in
> the world. Typically, the idea is that they have to be married
> males.
> While the male is privileged in this sense, there is also the
> notion that
> he is incomplete without a wife, if he wishes to take part in these
> rites

Typically, rites like shraddam, gruhapravesham, aksharAbhyasam are
performed by priests who are gruhasthas.

But I have seen brahmachari priests also perform the above mentioned
rites. The sense being that Brahmachari learns from a gruhastha the
shaastras required to perform rites and kamya karmas, as a
bruhaspathi.

In this thread, I would like clarification on why sumangalis are not
allowed to be priests and the role of brahmacharis as priests. If
possible, i would like clarifications from
1.)Sruthi or 2.) Smrthi prasthanams.

Regards,
Ramanuja Daasan,
Malolan Cadambi
"Jayatu Jayatu DevO DevakI nandanOyam"


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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:57:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Women priests
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


There is an ancient distinction between "life in the world" and "life
not of this world" in Hindu traditions. This is often lost on modern
society. I will offer a few points to contrast it here.

1. An ordained Swami, wearing orange robes, having taken the vows of
renunciation, is not a priest in the Hindu sense of that term.

2. A household priest is someone who can officiate at significant rites
of passage. Rites of passage usually involve rituals to mark keystones
in life. When a woman gets pregnant, when a child is born, when the
child is ready to be named, to be fed solid food, to be initiated into
learning and the society of elders, when the child grows into an adult
and marries, when this adult is ready to bear children, and when this
adult has to perform funeral ceremonies for the elder relatives - these
are the rites of passage that require priests.

3. Priests who officiate at these rituals have to be people who live in
the world. Typically, the idea is that they have to be married males.
While the male is privileged in this sense, there is also the notion that
he is incomplete without a wife, if he wishes to take part in these rites.

4. There is another dimension - the temple priest, who officiates at
public rituals in a temple, performing rituals for the sake of the larger
community, instead of one particular person/family. Such priests also
have to be married men, usually.

5. Swamis who have truly renounced the world have no role to play in
such events. In fact, the presence of a Swami at a wedding would be
frowned down upon, and considered inauspicious. A monk is considered a
walking cemetery, becoming metaphorically dead to the world the moment
the monastic vows are taken up. A monk can perform private worship, and
people can take the prasAda after that, but this is not considered the
same as temple worship.

6. To sum up, in a nebulous sense of priesthood as having to do with
the religious functions, yes, the monk may be considered a priest. In
the specific Hindu sense, the monk is not a priest. Now, there are a
few known cases of women taking the vows of renunciation, with the aid
and approval of men who have become monks themselves. But such women
voluntarily remove themselves from the daily ritual sphere, in order to
lead the rest of their lives as "not of this world".

Hope that clarifies the social situation somewhat,
Vidyasankar

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 16:18:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: adhyaasa bhaashhya - shrii saxena's translation (complete text)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


> suutra bhaashhya praNetaarau vedaantaabja prabhaakaru
> vande parasparaatmaanau baadaraayaNa sha.nkaru
>

(It think) it should be:

suutra bhaashhya praNetaarau vedaantaabja prabhaakarau
vande parasparaatmaanau baadaraayaNa sha.nkarau




> eko devaH sarvabhuuteshhu guuDhaH sarvavyaapii sarvabhuutantaraatma
> karmaadhyaxaH sarvabhuutaadhivaasaH, saaxii chetaa krevievo
> nirguNashcha
> ^^^^^^^^(FIX ME)
> (shve 1-6)
>

It should be

eko devaH sarvabhuuteshhu guuDhaH
 sarvavyaapii sarvabhuutaantaraatmaa |
karmaadhyaxaH sarvabhuutaadhivaasaH
 saaxii chetaa kevalo nirguNashcha || 6-11 ||




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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 23:22:39 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri S. V. Subrahmanian wrote..
>According to vedAntA Consciousness has 3 forms: one associated with >the
>vastu or vishaya (object), one as associated with the means of >knowledge
>(pramANa) and one associated with the subject (pramAta)

>Perception happens whenever these 3 forms occupy the same space and >time,
>where the mental state issuing through the organ and spreads over
>the object so as to assume the form of the object, which is perceived.

This is great! Thanks. These three forms of consciousness are a close
parallel to waking, dream and deep-sleep states. Now according to mANDUkya
the three states together form the letter A-U-M, so perception has to be a
form of "Om".

We can derive this from a different angle also.

Perception is grasping the essence of the set of objects or concepts we are
in touch with. If we do not grasp this essence, there is no perception. It
is be like chewing a sugar cane that had already lost its sweetness.

Ch.U. i.1 says:

"Om. This very letter should be meditated on as uthgItha... Of all beings,
earth is the essence, of the earth water is the essence (so earth and water
are living!), of water plants are the essence, of plants human beings are
the essence, of the humans speech is the essence, of speech Rk is the
essence, of Rk yajus is the essence, of yajus sAma is the essence, of sAma
uthgItha is the essence. That udgitha (Om) is the essence of all essences,
the highest, competent for the highest place, the eighth."

Now the if essence of all essences is om, then perception must be again a
form of "Om".

Now if perception is om, then any perception must be so! In other words, the
sense organs like eyes and ears, when they perceive, they are actually
meditating on this letter "Om". (According to tradition, the eyes, ears etc
are substituted by symbols like Adityas etc. as indicated in pratigrahaNam
... we are yet to figure out all the relationships, and Adityas etc are in
turn a form of Om.)

Do we have any right whatsoever to devalue the perceptive activities of
sense organs?

The fact that mind or other higher organs of thought such as intellect
misunderstand the perceptive outcome from eyes etc, is "their" problem (of
the former: mind, intellect etc), not of the latter- the sense organs).

Therefore the opinion of Acharyas that pratyakSa belonging to sense organs,
is perfectly valid. It may be the best argument I ever heard of, in humbling
of our mind and intellect. The so-called "lower" organs like sense organs,
the oft-beaten up items in every temple lecture, are actually meditating on
the letter om (and perceiving vedas), why is this intellect acting as a
know-all? It should better do its work right? :-)

Hunger:

Some people may not be fortunate to have sense organs (vastu or vishaya),
nor even a working mind or intellect (the means of knowledge, pramANa). But
when it is time for food, they do ask for it, in whatever way they can.
pramAta? There is nothing objective or subjective about hunger. It is the
self that instigates hunger, the acid test (literally).

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re : Women priests
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:54:38
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


Regarding this thread, I would like to point out that in current India
there's a great effort on, to prove that the Vedic civilization was
egalitarian and it is only brahmins who corrupted it. Also people always try
to reconcile modern (read Western) ideals with Vedic civilization. Whatever
is irreconcilable is termed backward, male chauvanistic etc

There's a Pillayaar koil (Ganesha temple for non-Tamils) near my house.
The gurukkal earns something like Rs.600/month. I think even a beggar
will make more than that. So what motivation can there be for people to
take up such a profession?

Still we periodically see "progressive" sections of the media clamouring
for "lower" castes/women to be trained as priests. The difference between
these people and the traditional brahmin is that while the former have
something to prove (that they too can be priests etc), the latter does it
out of pure duty - dharma. Which will sustain over a period of time is
obvious.

There's a section of the Indian public - progressive intellectuals (read
Marxists) - who use all tricks to denigrate the traditional brahmin
priest. Recently I read an article about a community of fishermen who
had become vegetarian and knowledgable in Sanskrit. So according to the
article they were equal to the brahmin. Again, as noted before, they all
have some motivation - to prove something - and they're probably funded
and receive benefits from the "progressive" sections of the society. Whether
they would have done all this in the abscence of such benefits, is open to
question. Also what prevented them from from learning Sanskrit or being
vegetarian all these years is also not clear.

For women being priests - what is supposed to happen when they have their
usual menstrual cycle or go on maternity leave? Are you supposed to shut
down the temple for holidays?

If we see the history of India, the brahmin had a monopoly over his
profession for the simple reason that none of the other castes had any taste
for his ideal of poverty for the sole purpose of propogating the dharma. In
contrast the brahmin himself volutarily embraced these ideals - and that
marks the true difference.

Cho Ramaswamy during the second half of year 2000, in series of articles
titled "braahmaneeyam" in his weekly Tamil magazine Tughlak had highlighted
the hypocrisy surrounding modern anti-brahmin propoganda. His dialectic as
usual is incisive.

These are indeed dark days for India.

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 06:16:31
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


>No. anupalabdhi is different. That you don't see say an elephant on >your
>table (hopefully it is not there -:)), that perception of the >abhava of an
>object is anupalabdhi. Whereas when I say I am happy - >tell me which
>organ is employed? When I say I am happy - is it a >perception of a
>non-existing thing? Neither. It is a direct perception >of a state in
>which "I am" is loaded as it were. This requires one to >be witness to
>perceive this. This is also pratyaksha.

Dear Subramaniam, I'm glad you've brought up this topic. This is extremely
vital in understanding Advaita. I too have been thinking about it for quite
a while now.

Madhyamika Buddism dismisses the world world as maya since knowledge due to
intellectual categories, is not absolute. This in my opinion is what gave
rise to the arguments on "determinate" and "indeterminate" perceptions in
the rest of the schools. The fundamental logic behind these arguments is
that not all aspects of life are covered by the workings of the mind. There
can be indeterminate perception which doesn't involve the working of the
mind.

We do not need the mind to know that we exist. A mother doesn't need the
mind to know that she loves her children. Likewise attraction amongst the
sexes. The instant dislike/revulsion that we feel for things. Likewise the
immediate attraction/liking we feel for other things doesn't need the
activity of the mind. Similarly happiness or misery doesn't always require
the mind. The security we feel in a familiar environment or the insecurity
in a hostile environment doesn't need the mind. All these are very
intuitive. We instinctively know/experience them. Maybe we can bunch
together the whole of them as "emotional" knowledge. (Shankara himself in
his commentary on the Brahma Sutra uses the first point to develop Advaita
on the background of Buddhist scepticism).

So fundamentally there're several aspects of knowledge which do not involve
the mind.
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 02:55:09 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I may have played down the roles of mind (manas), intelligence (cit) or
other entities in my last post to bring focus to other items, but there are
also Shrutis "mind is Brahman, meditate on mind" Ch.U. 7.3.1 or "cit is
Brahman, meditate on cit" Ch.U. 7.5.1. There is nothing that is not Brahman.
Detailed logical proofs can be worked out in respect of these Shrutis also
and this approach is no less than others. Sorry about the slip.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 05:02:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> I may have played down the roles of mind (manas), intelligence (cit) or
> other entities in my last post to bring focus to other items, but there are
> also Shrutis "mind is Brahman, meditate on mind" Ch.U. 7.3.1 or "cit is
> Brahman, meditate on cit" Ch.U. 7.5.1. There is nothing that is not Brahman.

Please bear in mind it only says "Mind is brahman", but does not say "brahman
is the mind" - Pot is clay, but clay is not pot.



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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:44:24 -0400
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Wed, 2 May 2001 02:36:44 -0400, nanda chandran <vpcnk at H...> wrote:

>
>sexes. The instant dislike/revulsion that we feel for things. Likewise the
>immediate attraction/liking we feel for other things doesn't need the
>activity of the mind. Similarly happiness or misery doesn't always require
>the mind. The security we feel in a familiar environment or the insecurity
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>in a hostile environment doesn't need the mind. All these are very
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>intuitive. We instinctively know/experience them. Maybe we can bunch
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>together the whole of them as "emotional" knowledge. (Shankara himself in
>his commentary on the Brahma Sutra uses the first point to develop Advaita
>on the background of Buddhist scepticism).

Dear Shri Nanda,

I have a doubt. I thought that the intellect is the determinative faculty
of the antahkaraNa and the manas (mind) is that which has likes or
dislikes, fears or is fearless, secure or is insecure etc. So I always
thought that it is the mind which feels fear and the instinctive fear we
feel sometimes is not because the Self feels afraid but that mind is scared
and the intellect is not able to explain why the fear is there. The
dichotomy exists because of the intellect not being able to explain and the
mind feeling something. Is it not so? From what you have stated, it would
appear that we don't need the mind to experience these states of intuitive
fear or insecurity or happiness etc. Could you please explain.

thanks
ashish

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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member Introduction: Padmanabhan Sundaresan
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:53:22 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 05/02/01 10:42 AM -----

 Padmanabhan Re: File - Welcome
 Sundaresan
 <paddy37in at y...
 hoo.co.in>

 05/01/01
 03:07 PM


Dear Sir
Thank you very much for including me in your group.Im
a Chartered accountant based in Mumbai india.I have
been reading various aspects of advaita and also a
keen member of the Advaita Research centre based in
Chennai.The request for entry into the group is to
learn about various views on advaita and since I am
also promoting a site www.slokas.com, i thought i will
get valuable inputs from the group as to the type of
contents to be put there.

Regards
Padmanabhan

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:36:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Women priests
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


--- nanda chandran <vpcnk at h...> wrote:
<deleted>

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap6.htm

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:23:30
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


>I have a doubt. I thought that the intellect is the determinative faculty
>of the antahkaraNa and the manas (mind) is that which has likes or
>dislikes, fears or is fearless, secure or is insecure etc. So I always
>thought that it is the mind which feels fear and the instinctive fear we
>feel sometimes is not because the Self feels afraid but that mind is scared
>and the intellect is not able to explain why the fear is there. The
>dichotomy exists because of the intellect not being able to explain and the
>mind feeling something. Is it not so? From what you have stated, it would
>appear that we don't need the mind to experience these states of intuitive
>fear or insecurity or happiness etc. Could you please explain.

The following is only my opinion and I don't hold it as absolute. It is only
a relative view. If anybody can express something more relevant, you can
discard this view.

See we can divide the mental apparatus as the mind, ego and intellect - but
this is only theory strictly for the purpose of intellectual understanding.
Modern science shows us that it is the brain which performs all these
functions. So I would simplfy the whole issue down to two categories : 1.
knowledge which involves thought construction and 2. knowledge which doesn't
involve thought construction.

In the first the brain is involved. In the latter it isn't. The knowledge
of the second category is purely intuitional. But I'm not saying that it
is the knowledge of the Self etc Just that such knowledge - like knowledge
of one's own existence, love, happiness, instinctive dislike or fear -
doesn't involve thought construction. It is immediate and intuitive.

Ofcourse there're other kinds of happiness/fear which involve thought
construction. Like if we imagine something pleasant happening to us, we
feel happy. After watching a horror movie, your mind works overtime and
you're scared of dark corners - there's fear. Fear can also arise due to us
imagining ourselves in some unfortunate situation.

Again repeated experiences of something can also can give rise to immediate
knowledge. Like if we know something for sure, then due to practice the mind
works like lightning and knowledge arises. Like the happiness we feel on
coming home after a long time or seeing a friend after a long time.

But how do we account for happiness which arises, say, when you listen to
some good music that you've not heard before. Or if you go to some place
or get into a situation where you instinctively feel uncomfortable. Or the
love/affection between people - between mother and children, lovers etc. The
mother doesn't evaluate/validate the reasons for which she should love her
offspring. The rush of love and affection for her children is natural and
spontaneous.

Ofcourse you can distinguish between them as feeling and thought. But again
both involve knowledge, don't they? For all acts of consciousness are
ultimately knowledge. To be conscious of something is to know it. If you ask
a mother whether she loves her children, she doesn't think about it, does
she? She instinctively knows so. Maybe the affection between lovers -
especially in Hollywood movies where the question, "do you really love
him/her?" :-) - is even more relevant.

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Book on Ramana Maharishi
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:17:51
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


Is anybody aware of a book called "Ramana Maharishi and the path of
self-knowledge" by S Radhakrishnan? Is this by Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan?

Advance thanks for all feedback.

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:16:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Women priests
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Excellent. Thank you very much.

--- "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...> wrote:
> --- nanda chandran <vpcnk at h...> wrote:
> <deleted>
>
> http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap6.htm
>
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>From "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>
Subject: Re: Re: Women priests
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:49:47 +0530
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From: "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>


Namskaram all,
Is there any "Shakti Peetham" in Jalandhar,(Panjab)?

Regards,
Ramkumar
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Women priests


> --- nanda chandran <vpcnk at h...> wrote:
> <deleted>
>
> http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part3/chap6.htm
>
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>From "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 08:53:50 +0400
Subject: decaying of Hindu varna dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaskars.
Fantastic.I wonder how to ensure very wide circulation of this in all
languages and to all brahmins who have and do not have access to electronic
media or books.I feel compelled to spread this message to as many as possible!
Thank you so much for letting us know that there are such treatises.
Jaya jaya sankara Hara Hara Sankara!
Annapurna




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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 02:11:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Book on Ramana Maharishi
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


>Is anybody aware of a book called "Ramana Maharishi and the path of
>self-knowledge" by S Radhakrishnan? Is this by Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan?

This is a book written by Arthur Osborne, with a foreword by Sarvepalli
Radhakrishnan.

Vidyasankar

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 02:25:33 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri S. V. Subrahmanian wrote..
>Please bear in mind it only says "Mind is brahman", but does not >say
>"brahman is the mind" - Pot is clay, but clay is not pot.

Very true. When Brahman is the subject of a sentence, it always goes like
"Brahman is every thing" or "Brahman is all this".

Ch.U chapter 7 gives a detailed hierarchy of mental faculties with
associated reasoning in ascending order, starting with Name (nAma), Speech
(vAk), Mind (manas), Will (saGkalpa), Intelligence (cit), meditation
(dhyAna), understanding (vijnAna), strength (balam), food (annam), water
(ApaH), fire (tejas), space (AkAsha), memory (smara), hope (Asha) and life
(prANa). Each one of them is Brahman on its own. While name is the least
intuitive (or probably a jaDam), prANa is the most intuitive of all. Between
the two are the rest.

There is every indication that Acharyas used words like manas as explained
in Shruti.

The self concept (aham) may identify itself with any of these entities for a
fraction of time, at any point of time. For example when aham identifies
with manas, people think "I am the mind", and their span of control is to
that extent as mind extends.

When one identifies oneself with lower entities such as Name or speech, at
that time, for this person mind is indeed Brahman because mind is higher
than name and speech. There is no way for this person to realize the highest
Brahman without first showing reverence to mind as Brahman. But now, after
realizing mind and transcending it to reach higher levels such as cit, the
lower entities such as mind become objects of enjoyment or they become
tools, thus reversing the hierarchy for some elements.

As these events happen in quick succession, it is practically difficult for
a sAdhaka to keep track, and there is great possibility for adhyAsa. Such
superimposition will go away with study and practice. In any case when there
is adhyAsa and wrong decisions are taken based on that, the higher elements
in the hierarchy always step in and take care of the situation (and fix the
problems in the yajna!).

Ultimately it must be mentioned, the rules of the game are always in place,
and no rule had even been broken. Only we only do not realize what is going
on.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:08:31 -0400
Subject: Shakti Peeth in Jalandhar
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Thu, 3 May 2001 09:49:47 +0530, Ramkumar N.S.M. <nramkuma at A...>
wrote:

>Namskaram all,
>Is there any "Shakti Peetham" in Jalandhar,(Panjab)?
>
>Regards,
>Ramkumar

The Vishvamukhi temple dedicated to Tripurmalini Shakti is in Jalandhar.

ashish

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:39:36 -0400
Subject: Re: decaying of Hindu varna dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Thu, 3 May 2001 08:53:50 +0400, Dr. Annapurna S
<drannas at E...> wrote:

>Namaskars.
>Fantastic.I wonder how to ensure very wide circulation of this in all
>languages and to all brahmins who have and do not have access to electronic
>media or books.I feel compelled to spread this message to as many as
possible!
>Thank you so much for letting us know that there are such treatises.
>Jaya jaya sankara Hara Hara Sankara!
>Annapurna
>

Namaste,

I think a better thing would be to consider what you would want your own
son, if you are married and have a son, to do when he grows up. Most of us
have this attitude of "this is amazing, this needs to be disseminated etc"
but when it comes to doing what the Acharya is saying, we hide behind real
or imagined circumstances. I don't mean to disparage anyone but am just
trying to say that if it be granted that we are indeed the prisoners of our
circumstances, let us at least ensure that the next generation follows
Dharma as much as possible - definitely more than we do, and it would be
wonderful if the next generation of Brahamana boys could dedicate
themselves to their varna Dharma alone.

ashish

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:29:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New member introduction: Suresh Srinivasamurthy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Devotees,

Please accept my Sashtaang Pranaams.My name is Suresh Srinivasamurthy and
I am work for Motorola in Florida,USA.Though I am practitioner of
Srivishnavism I have high regards and great interest in learning about
Advaita and Sri Sri Shankara bhagavadpada.I have been practicing veda
chanting, Saligrama Aaradhanam, Chanting of Devatha-Stotrams and also a
Yoga practitioner from past 12 years.I consider myself blessed for having
accepted my membership.I have a humble question.

Could anyone explain to me the method and the significance of Panchayatan
pooja.

Daasoham

Suresh Srinivasamurthy

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: Women priests
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 19:12:32
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


Dear Ravi,

Yes I'm aware of this angle. But the issue is not as simple as this.
Brahmins who preserved the traditional dharma for thousands of years cannot
just suddenly develop an affection for wealth and abandon the dharma.
Throughout history they've had ample chances to do so, but still have
refrained from it. Why is this so?

First let's try to understand the motivation behind Chandrasekhara
Sarasvati's tirade against brahmins. If you see in Mahabharatha there're
instances where the traditional varna system is endorsed and other instances
where brahmanahood by birth is rejected. It is my opinion that all such
instances in astika texts which question the right of a brahmin based on
birth is fundamentally for one single purpose : to check the brahmin's pride
about being the top caste. The varna system endorses brahmanaship by birth
for the single reason that there's no other alternative. If brahmanaship is
based on the capability of the individual then it leaves it open for
manipulation. The practical example is Buddhism itself which tried the exact
thing - not by birth is one spiritual but by merit - and over a period of
time it went corrupt and eventually vanished. In contrast the sanaatana
dharma has survived against insurmountable odds to this day.

So the exhortations that you find in astika literature against brahmins is
purely for the sake of checking their pride.

Chandrasekhara Saraswati's exhortation too is based on similar motivations -
to check the brahmin's pride by questioning his current vocation and trying
to bring him over to the preservation of the dharma.

Regarding the reason why brahmins abandoned the dharma - it is my opinion
that the case is quite complex. When the mughals ruled the country brahmins
didn't abandon the dharma did they? I'm sure that the mughals would have
welcomed them as allies and it would have served the cause of Islamization
of the country too - and brahmins would have been well rewarded for it. So
why didn't brahmins ally with the Muslims?

To understand the reason why, you've to understand the psychology of the
brahmin. With foreign invasions both the middle castes - the kshatriya and
the vaishya - were soon displaced, as the conquerors themselves became the
kshatriyas (though they weren't officially recognized so) and anybody with
money and the interest to trade displaced the traditional vaishyas. But why
wasn't the brahmin displaced?

The fundamental reason was that in his occupation - spirituality - the
brahmin was king. The literature/knowledge that he possesed could not be
rivalled by the newcomers. So he wasn't upstaged during the Mughal period.

But English colonialization altered the scenario. Almost every darshana
-astika or nastika - had always taken pride in their claim that their
philosophy was based on experience and reason. So science wasn't divorced
from spirituality. There was always an effort to reconcile spiritual thought
with available scientific knowledge. Not only the brahmins, the whole
populace were aware of the superiority of their thought.

But when the English came in with their modern science and technology, which
were products of the industrial revolution, the Indian population couldn't
handle it. The case was even more accentuated by the cultural supremacy
practiced by the British as an instrument of state policy. They simply said
that "your sciences are outdated and our knowledge is superior". The brahmin
who was traditionally the bastion of knowledge in India suddenly found
himself face to face with competition that he couldn't understand nor was
equipped to handle.

This more than anything else resulted in loss of confidence/faith in the
populace in the traditional sciences. It is not so much that Western thought
was superior to ours. Just that we lacked through knowledge of the details
and where there's lack of knowledge, there's also fear and uncertainity.
(But those with brains/knowledge had always recognized the superiority of
our spirituality - check TRV Murti's observations regarding the deficiency
of Western philosophical thought when compared with traditional Indian
thought in his "The central philosophy of Buddhism").

So in the last hundred years or so, I would think of the Indians taking up
western education, as their attempt to come to terms/understand the details
of western science and reconciling their traditional sciences with it. If we
take even our fathers or grandfathers who lived in the modern world and
practiced modern professions, it is quite possible that they lacked
knowledge/confidence in the traditional Vedic sciences. But we right now are
more confident of the Upanishads and Advaita. Why? Because we're comfortable
with modern science and have also realized that it is not really in conflict
with our traditional sciences - yes, even the theory of relativity or the
big bang theory can be comfortably reconciled with Advaita!

So I don't think it is so much that the brahmin abandoned the dharma, but
that the whole society did. As Manu himself rightly notes, the brahmin and
the society are dependent on each other and one cannot survive without the
support of the other. When the society lost confidence in the Vedic sciences
it ceased to support the brahmin and he had not other option but to turn to
modern opportunities. We also have to take into account that the official
policy of independent India is also to embrace modern science and ignore the
traditional sciences - for all of India is right now studying western
knowledge, is it not?

Now since we're able to reconcile western science with the traditional
sciences, we are going back to them. Even this effort is predominently
carried on only by brahmins today. Slowly the rest of the populace too
should be brought back into the dharma.

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>From Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Suresh Srinivasamurthy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian <owner-advaita-l at L...>


--- Suresh Srinivasamurthy wrote:

> Could anyone explain to me the method and the
> significance of Panchayatan
> pooja.

pa.nchAyatana pUjA typically consists of the pentad
shiva, devi, vishhNu, sUrya and gaNapati. I believe
some people substitute kArtikeya for sUrya, but I am
not sure if this has any big following. It is a nitya
karma for householders.

Why these five and not others? It's because the
different smR^iti-s enjoin the worship of these five,
e.g., the bodhAyana smR^iti, certain purANa-s etc. The
relevant smR^iti-s to be followed are known through
the good traditions. As you are probably aware
smR^itis and good tradition are authoritative means of
knowledge (as long as they don't contradict shruti).

One of the five deities is placed in the center and
the rest are arranged around it. The interesting thing
is that this worship is that any one of the five can
be placed in the center. Once the central deity is
fixed, the order in which the other deities must be
placed can be found in the bodhAyana smR^iti. For
example, with shiva as the central deity, you have:

devi vishhNu

 shiva -----------------> East

gaNapati sUrya

Any other order would lead to disastrous results. In
addition 3 lingas, 2 gaNapati-s, 2 devi-s and so on
are not to be worshipped at the same time. There are
various other rules and restrictions on what kind of
flowers and leaves which may be offered to each
devata. Eg, tulasi is to to be avoided for gaNapati
and so on. Typically the ishhTa devata (favorite
deity) is placed in the center. However, this does not
mean the other devata-s are "lesser gods" -- smArtas
do not accept such gradations. In some families I
know, the kula devata is also worhiped along with the
pa.ncAyatana, e.g., kArtikeya.

Typically all the pa.nchAyatana idols are stones and
not idols. shiva-li.nga, vishhNu-sAlagrAma,
sUrya-sphaTika, devi-a quartz kind of stone,
gaNapati-a red stone (I forget the name now). The
shiva li.nga is in fact a bANa li.nga, which can be
found only on the banks of the Narmada river.

Some of the pUjA is standard. There is kalasa,
sha.nka, pITha pUjas, abisheka, pushhpa pUja etc. The
pUjA also has great philosophical significance. At the
beginning the deities are invoked into the idols. At
this time "Atma pUja" is conducted. The Atman inside
is worshiped by putting axata on the head and saying
Atmane namaH, antarAtmane namaH etc. This is not to be
vulguraly interpreted as self-glorification. It is
similar to what you can find in the mANDUkya
upanishhad: that the vishva, taijasa and prAGYa are
one and the same. vishva is the cosmic reality or the
world "outside" and the taijasa is the world "inside".
Further all the deities are actually the same as the
Atman, and differ only by the limiting adjuncts. The
different deities are the different "limbs" of the one
Atman. A mantra recited before the invocation
emphasizes this fact. You can find a similar
description by sha.nkara in his muNDaka bhAshhya.

In short, the pa.nchAyatana pUjA contains the essence
of advaita and is devised especially for people who
cannot rise up to the asparsha yoga described by
gauDapAda. I have described it very briefly. You can
go through the procedure in the nityAnnikam published
by R.S.Vadhyar and sons and easily correlate it with
the passages in various upanishhads.

Rama


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>From "naresh cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 18:21:53 -0400
Reply-To: n.cuntoor at l...
Subject: Re: Women priests
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "naresh cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


 Namaskara,


<snip>

>
The varna system endorses brahmanaship by birth
>for the single reason that there's no other alternative. If brahmanaship is
>based on the capability of the individual then it leaves it open for
>manipulation. The practical example is Buddhism itself which tried the exact
>thing - not by birth is one spiritual but by merit - and over a period of
>time it went corrupt and eventually vanished. In contrast the sanaatana
>dharma has survived against insurmountable odds to this day.
>
<unsnip>
This line of thought seems to suggest that one wants religion to survive in the mould in which it existed earlier. Is religion more important or the welfare of the people? (As an aside,)To my mind, one of the key aspects that has enabled hindu dharma (or sanatana dharma or whatever name you give to it) is its ability to not just tolerate other faiths but loosely speaking, to assimilate it as well. This adaptability with time and situation has protected its people over the ages.
The Bhakti movement is one such example where the proponents were not just brahmins but hailed from other castes as well. But the movement held the people in good stead.
And as Sri Chandran pointed out, the reasons for teh decline of the brahminical pursuits are not straightforward but rather involved..

Another thing to ponder over is the following.. Suppose we are refuse the western influence and say we are happy with our way of life and our books, how will knowledge grow? Should we be content at interpreting what our forefathers said or should we take an albeit tentative step, further?

Regards,
Naresh


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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:12:11 -0400
Subject: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Namaste, Shri Nanda Chandran,

You wrote:

>I think a better thing would be to consider what you would
>want your own son, if you are married and have a son, to do
>when he grows up. Most of us have this attitude of "this is
>amazing, this needs to be disseminated etc" but when it comes
>to doing what the Acharya is saying, we hide behind real
>or imagined circumstances.

Wonderful advice undoubtedly. However, I am curious to know,
being a brahmin male yourself (forgive me if my assumption is
wrong), how do you implement what the acharya is saying in
_your_ personal life? While I understand the point being made
here, I would like to know how the male brahmin members of this
list are actually implementing what the paramacharya says given
the strong sentiments exhibited.

I know I am living my life outside my prescribed dharma by the
simple fact I own a computer to check my email and pay from
extra income for internet access. But despite that knowledge, I
am at a loss to see how I can revert to my dharma letter-for-
letter as prescribed by the acharya.

>ensure that the next generation follows Dharma as much as
>possible - definitely more than we do, and it would be

How would you be able to do that? Has preaching without
practising ever worked well? Would you actually fault the child
if he fails to be more dharmically inclined than the parent?
Really?

Reverting to the original topic of women priests, I have a qn
for the learned members:

Everything in our vedas and shastra's is supposed to be
perfectly logical with a scientific basis. What is the logic
behind women cannot be priests? If the menstrual cycle and
pregnancy are cited as a reasons, aren't they both god-given
gifts? Why is that a basis for discrimination? Assuming the
chemistry/physiology alters and that's a cause for concern,
what disqualifies a woman the rest of the time? Sure, a temple
cannot close five days a month, so have two women priests
instead whose cycles don't overlap! Why is this even an issue?

There appears to be plenty of discrimination against woment in
the english translation of Manu Smriti that I read recently. But
the smriti itself is supposed to be based on Shruti's - what am
I missing here? Maybe something got misinterpreted in the
translations? I am being too naive in my interpretation and the
superficial statements actually signify much deeper truths? I
find it hard to believe that the shruti's are actually that
misogynistic but my reading of Manu Smriti has left me deeply
disturbed. I am finding hard to reconcile its contents to the
rest of Sanatana dharma.

On a totally different note,
Is sanyasa allowed for one who never took the brahmacharya
ashrama?

Regards,
Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)



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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:14:27 -0400
Subject: Correction
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


The quote in my past mail should have been attributed to
Shri.Ashish Chandra and not Shri.Nanda Chandran.

Please accept my apologies.

Regards.
Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)




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>From kartik at K...
Subject: Re: Re: Women priests
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 20:59:58 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH
GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH
OM NAMAH SIVAYA
OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA

Blessed Self,
You are indeed correct. In this kali Yuga Bhakti is indeed
the surest, easiest, and safest path to God Realization.
Sri Swami Sivanandaji Maharaj has said this innumerable
times.

Also the original question on Women Priests has not been
answered in this thread.

Now Tantra Yoga is a complete path to Self Realization, how
does Varna Ashrama etc fit into that - they do not, yet it
is an established albeit forgotten path to the Absolute.

It is easy to repeat the mistake of making rituals more
important than the intent. That is also a reason for the
downfall of the culture.

Varn Ashram Dharma can be practised in every minute and
speck of space. the form and names change but the Tests all
of us undergo do not change and our success and or failure
is not gauged by mere repetetive actions but by our thought
process during our actions.

It seems to me in this group, that Brahmin is by birth
alone?

The Vedas are Eternal, all of us have heard it, said it and
repeat it. This means that the Vedas are relevant in our
day to day lives, it is important to see through the name
and form and see the relevance and implications.

Our interpretation is impacted by Klishta and Aklishta
vrittis, Ravana is inside us and the Mahabharata is also
inside us noplace else.

Despite all this in the Kali Yuga japa is the surest,
safest and fastest path to God Realization. Bhagvan Sri
Krishna has himself said, among the yaguas, I AM JAPA.

Rules are indeed necessary but Purushcharan and for obtaing
desired objects, for God Realization there are NO rules for
Japa.

is it incorrect to do Japa in the shower, on the road,
doing daily activities, and if it becomes habitual -
hopefully, then Japa happens in the toilet also. Actually
all of us are doing japa by the exhalation and inhalation
of our breath - Soham, please read about this more.

Yama, Niyama etc are all necessary and first steps. Sanyasa
is here and now as a householder if efforts are made to
follow an honest, ethical life in Dharma.
Sansar - Maya cannot be outside, that would be a
contradiction, it is inside and so is sanyas and so is God
and so is Self Realization.

Pranam
OM



> Namaskara,
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> The varna system endorses brahmanaship by birth
> >for the single reason that there's no other alternative.
If brahmanaship is
> >based on the capability of the individual then it leaves
it open for
> >manipulation. The practical example is Buddhism itself
which tried the exact
> >thing - not by birth is one spiritual but by merit - and
over a period of
> >time it went corrupt and eventually vanished. In
contrast the sanaatana
> >dharma has survived against insurmountable odds to this
day.
> >
> <unsnip>
> This line of thought seems to suggest that one wants
religion to survive in the mould in
which it existed earlier. Is religion more important or
the welfare of the people? (As an
aside,)To my mind, one of the key aspects that has enabled
hindu dharma (or sanatana
dharma or whatever name you give to it) is its ability to
not just tolerate other faiths
but loosely speaking, to assimilate it as well. This
adaptability with time and situation
has protected its people over the ages.
> The Bhakti movement is one such example where the
proponents were not just brahmins but
hailed from other castes as well. But the movement held the
people in good stead.
> And as Sri Chandran pointed out, the reasons for teh
decline of the brahminical pursuits
are not straightforward but rather involved..
>
> Another thing to ponder over is the following.. Suppose
we are refuse the western
influence and say we are happy with our way of life and our
books, how will knowledge
grow? Should we be content at interpreting what our
forefathers said or should we take an
albeit tentative step, further?
>
> Regards,
> Naresh
>
>
> Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
> http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/
>
>
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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:51:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Thu, 3 May 2001 19:12:11 -0400, Shuba <swamis at U...> wrote:

>Namaste, Shri Nanda Chandran,
>

Namaste Shubaji, it was Ashish Chandra and not Shri Nanda whom you wished
to address.

>You wrote:
>
>>I think a better thing would be to consider what you would
>>want your own son, if you are married and have a son, to do
>>when he grows up. Most of us have this attitude of "this is
>>amazing, this needs to be disseminated etc" but when it comes
>>to doing what the Acharya is saying, we hide behind real
>>or imagined circumstances.
>
>Wonderful advice undoubtedly. However, I am curious to know,
>being a brahmin male yourself (forgive me if my assumption is
>wrong), how do you implement what the acharya is saying in
>_your_ personal life? While I understand the point being made
>here, I would like to know how the male brahmin members of this
>list are actually implementing what the paramacharya says given
>the strong sentiments exhibited.
>

ParamAchArya also understands that a lot of us are stuck in circumstances
not of our choosing. I am not hiding behind this in any way. However, the
effort should be to make one's way back to one's dharma progressively. As
far as I am concerned, I just have to listen to my own brother as to where
I was three years back and today. I am not saying that I have achieved
something great but I do have the satisfaction that I am doing more as time
passes. Being a north Indian implies that I have long lost touch with our
varna dharma. However the desire is there to keep learning and I try to
make every effort towards that end as time passes. If you were to look
anywhere, you must look at Jaldhar himself. He was not even born in India
and yet is so particular about following his dharma.

>I know I am living my life outside my prescribed dharma by the
>simple fact I own a computer to check my email and pay from
>extra income for internet access. But despite that knowledge, I
>am at a loss to see how I can revert to my dharma letter-for-
>letter as prescribed by the acharya.
>

You should think if owning a computer and checking email were such an anti-
dharmic act then why would a traditional ashram like Kailash Ashram (Shri
Siddharth is a resident of this ashram in Rishikesh, India) have internet
facilities? The Jagadgurus have even released CDs.

>>ensure that the next generation follows Dharma as much as
>>possible - definitely more than we do, and it would be
>
>How would you be able to do that? Has preaching without
>practising ever worked well? Would you actually fault the child
>if he fails to be more dharmically inclined than the parent?
>Really?
>

I did not have a choice as far as my childhood is concerned. I had to go to
school, learn all the things I did not knowing myself that I would need
them - my parents made that determination for me. That is not a wrong
thing - just a fact. Similarly, we can also make that determination for the
next generation, having ourselves the benefit of knowing that the "modern
scientific" life cannot give us what dharma has as its goal.

ashish

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:32:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Women priests
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 1 May 2001, Bell, Gregg wrote:

> Namaste,
>
> Along this line, then what is the difference between a Swami and a Priest?
>
> I met an ordained female swami at the Sivananda Ashram in upstate New York
> last year.
>
> Is this an example of the 'what is a priest' confusion you are talking
> about, Jaldhar?
>

Yes, which just goes to show why it isn't a good idea to try and
superimpose concepts from one culture onto another. A Swami (it's an
honorific title for a sannyasi or ascetic) has a completely different set
of assumptions thus a completely seperate set of rules from a householder.

To expand on what Vidyashankar said, he reason for this is that actions
(karma) whether secular or religious are for bringing into existence
something which did not previously exist or to end something which
previously existed. For instance you do a job to get money to buy things.
Or you perform some religious ceremony to obtain heaven or avoid hell.
Because of the various outcomes, the methods are diverse too and depend on
factors such as age, gender, caste, knowledge, wealth etc.

But Brahman is not something which can be given or taken away. It is the
underlying ground of everything. Because of maya, most things are
ignorant of that fact. Something like a stone cannot realize this because
it lacks self-awareness. An animal has self-awareness but is a prisoner
of its' desires (i.e. goes into heat every month etc.) But a sentient
being that is capable of renouncing what is not real can transcend that
ignorance and gain knowledge (jnana) of its' true Brahman-nature. This is
moksha (liberation) the goal of Vedanta. There can be no restrictions on
who can achieve that goal because it was only from the non-Brahman
standpoint there was a goal to achieve. Some particular orders may
restrict their membership in various ways but enough don't that the idea
of a female sannyasi is non-controversial even to the most orthodox mind.

(Note the above argument is from the standpoint of Advaita Vedanta which
holds that karma and jnana are completely distinct. Other schools of
Vedanta believe they can be combined to one degree or another so their
conclusions may be quite different.)

In the shastras two issues are discussed that pertain to this:

1. If the knowledge of Brahman comes from the Vedas and the Vedas are
restricted to those who are properly qualified, it follows that those who
are not qualified (i.e. women) even if in theory can obtain moksha, in
practice cannot.

The answer is that out of compassion for such people, Maharshi Vedavyasa
took the essence of the Vedas and wrote the 18 Puranas and the Mahabharata
(which includes the Bhagavadgita.) Through the philosophical portions of
these (plus the Ramayana,) those excluded from the Vedas themselves, can
also obtain true knowledge.

2. If the prerequisite of moksha is the adoption of sannyasa, can those
who have not been formally initiated into sannyasa ashram achieve moksha?
Related to this, must sannyasa be taken only after the preceding ashrams
viz. Brahmacharya, Grhastha, and Vanaprastha or can it be taken out of
order?

The answer is when we say initiated into sannyasa what exactly do we mean?
One gives away all ones posessions, takes up the staff and the orange
robes etc. But these being karma are for the benefit of society not for
self-knowledge. For instance one of the rites is to perform ones own
shraddha. This is so the descendents avoid the sin of not perforoming
your shraddha not for your own sake. The core values of sannyasa are
hearing the instruction from a sadguru, dispassion, non-violence etc.
Anyone who possesses those virtues is de facto a sannyasi even without
formal diksha. Only such a person is entitled to give up obligations and
actions. (i.e. you can't just use "I am Brahman" as an excuse to shirk
your duties. You have to put it in practice.) There are many examples
in the shastras of people going straight to sannyasa from one of the other
ashrams. In fact some like Shukadevaji never belonged to any ashram.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:56:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Sringeri Jagadgurus
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 1 May 2001, Stig Lundgren wrote:

> Namaste to you all,
>
> I came across the following new and truly brilliant web-site on the
> Sringeri Jagadgurus: www.jagadgurus.org . Here you can find a lot of
> useful information and great teachings, and there are two beautiful
> movies (25 minutes and 22 minutes respectively) on the Sankaracharyas.
> Everyone interested in traditional Advaita Vedanta should visit this
> site!
>

Thanks Stig! This is a great find.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Women priests
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 22:23:01 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


This is regarding the original question which was about employing women as
priests for household ceremonies.

I am not an expert on yajna, but from a ritual point of view the household
and community rituals are a simplified version of the original larger
ritual.

Man and woman are not opposite in any sense of the word like plus/minus or
matter/anti-matter. Even purush/prakRti is a bit of stretch. They are made
almost similar, but a little different in anatomy and chemistry. This
difference in chemistry causes some differences in psychology of man and
woman how each approaches any situation; this fact is proven by modern
science. Veda recognized this difference and allotted specific roles for the
wife of yajamAna and possibly women folk of other priests. These roles can
not be exchanged, otherwise the ritual will be faulty.

Same argument goes for men and women of different varNas. There are specific
roles given to different varNas of people (brahmin, kSatriya, vaishya,
shudra) in the ritual, and there are philosophical reasons given for such
assignment. Again these roles can not be exchanged because it will
invalidate the ritual.

This does not mean people of different varNas can not maintain their own
store of knowledge. Knowledge is different from ritual, at the same time
knowledge is about the ritual and how to get out of it. Social ceremonies
may be designed according to local situation.

Kindly correct any errors.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:13:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Women priests
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 1 May 2001, [iso-8859-1] Malolan Cadambi wrote:

> Typically, rites like shraddam, gruhapravesham, aksharAbhyasam are
> performed by priests who are gruhasthas.
>
> But I have seen brahmachari priests also perform the above mentioned
> rites. The sense being that Brahmachari learns from a gruhastha the
> shaastras required to perform rites and kamya karmas, as a
> bruhaspathi.
>

If someone is learning to drive, they are required to put an 'L' or other
sign on their car signifying 'student driver'. They may have mastered the
fundamentals of driving but without practice they might make mistakes so
it's a warning to give them wide berth. In the same way, a Brahmachari
might know the details but not be eperienced in the practice of
karmakanda. A grhastha in theory would not have entered that ashram until
after his education was thoroughly complete.

> In this thread, I would like clarification on why sumangalis are not
> allowed to be priests and the role of brahmacharis as priests. If
> possible, i would like clarifications from
> 1.)Sruthi or 2.) Smrthi prasthanams.
>

In order to practice the Vedic rites, first one must learn them. Who is
entitled to learn the Vedas? In the Shatapathabrahmana of the
Shuklayajurveda [11.5.4] (and no doubt in other places) the procedure for
upanayana which begins Vedic study is mentioned. First the procedure for
Brahmanas is mentioned. Then for Kshatriyas, and then for Vaishyas. The
Shudras are not mentioned. Therefore it is concluded that the Shudras are
not entitled to upanayana (and hence to Vedic study.) Also in the
description only the masculine gender is used. Thus the conclusion is
only boys are entitled to it. As to why performing karma is the special
province of Brahmanas, there are many references e.g. Manusmrti 1.88.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:44:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Women priests
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 3 May 2001, naresh cuntoor wrote:

> This line of thought seems to suggest that one wants religion to
> survive in the mould in which it existed earlier.

Rather, the onus is on the person who wants to change it to explain why
such a change is necessary.

> Is religion more important or the welfare of the people?

Well that depends on what exactly we mean by "welfare". I don't see any
evidence that women are being terribly opressed by not being "priests"
(particularly because as I mentioned in an earlier post, in Hinduism women
do engage in various types of "priestly" behavior.) And who decides what
is "welfare" in the first place? On what grounds? "people" isn't too
well-defined either. Which people are we talking about? Indians? Why is
a Muslim from Agra part of the people but somebody who acts and believes
exactly the same in Karachi, not? Or perhaps you meant the entire
humanity? Would a Roman Catholic agree that becoming a Hindu priest was
proming the welfare of the people?

Many of us here define "the people" as those who believe their welfare
lies is following the prescriptions of the Vedas.

> (As an aside,)To my mind, one
> of the key aspects that has enabled hindu dharma (or sanatana dharma
> or whatever name you give to it) is its ability to not just tolerate
> other faiths but loosely speaking, to assimilate it as well. This
> adaptability with time and situation has protected its people over the
> ages.

True, but as Swamiji points out, the Mughal period was not the best for
our Dharma but we didn't adapt by giving up. So the question we should
ask is what is so special about today compared to any other date?

> Another thing to ponder over is the following.. Suppose we are refuse
> the western influence and say we are happy with our way of life and
> our books, how will knowledge grow? Should we be content at
> interpreting what our forefathers said or should we take an albeit
> tentative step, further?
>

Today was Mohini Ekadashi according to Smarta Sampradaya. But according
to Bhagavata Sampradaya,it should be tomorrow. What does modern science
have to say about this? (Hint: nothing.) The Vedas are pramana for
Dharma and Moksha. Nothing else can replace them. They are not however a
pramana for say geography and if science can add more to our knowledge of
this, that's great. I submit to the very fact that we are having this
conversation on the Internet--arguably the most modern of inventions--is
proof that even traditionalists can innovate. But only if it is
appropriate and not at the cost of our values. My problem with the
reformers (who have been around for close to 200 years now) is that for
all their claims of being rational and scientific, their philosophy is
poorly thought out and based on questionable assumptions.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 00:22:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 3 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> Wonderful advice undoubtedly. However, I am curious to know,
> being a brahmin male yourself (forgive me if my assumption is
> wrong), how do you implement what the acharya is saying in
> _your_ personal life? While I understand the point being made
> here, I would like to know how the male brahmin members of this
> list are actually implementing what the paramacharya says given
> the strong sentiments exhibited.
>

Again I'm not claiming to be perfect in this by any means, but I do try
and fulfill the daily duties as best I understand them. And actually they
are not as onerous as people seem to think. I am interested in many other
things other than Dharma but I have decided that when there is a conflict
they should take a back seat to the true purpose of my life.

 > I know I am living my life outside my prescribed dharma by
the > simple fact I own a computer to check my email and pay from
> extra income for internet access. But despite that knowledge, I
> am at a loss to see how I can revert to my dharma letter-for-
> letter as prescribed by the acharya.
>

Perhaps you might not be able to in your lifetime. But maybe you could
build a foundation of which your children could.

> How would you be able to do that? Has preaching without
> practising ever worked well? Would you actually fault the child
> if he fails to be more dharmically inclined than the parent?
> Really?
>

Children have an inbuilt radar for hypocrisy. If parents say one thing
and do another, they will fail to make an impression. But if they are
sincere it will have a powerful impact. Some of the most active and
knowledgeable American-born Hindus I know have parents who were only
farmers with limited or no education. But they still managed to
communicate the spirit of Dharma and inspire their children to go further
than they did.

> Reverting to the original topic of women priests, I have a qn
> for the learned members:
>
> Everything in our vedas and shastra's is supposed to be
> perfectly logical with a scientific basis.

I disagree with the second part. It is a common mistake to confuse
rationality with science. Science is a very good example of a rational
system but by no means the only one. Our shastras are rational in the
sense that given basic assumptions, they reason and expand on them
logically. But they are not scientific or only coincidentally so.

> What is the logic
> behind women cannot be priests? If the menstrual cycle and
> pregnancy are cited as a reasons, aren't they both god-given
> gifts? Why is that a basis for discrimination? Assuming the
> chemistry/physiology alters and that's a cause for concern,
> what disqualifies a woman the rest of the time? Sure, a temple
> cannot close five days a month, so have two women priests
> instead whose cycles don't overlap! Why is this even an issue?
>

This is why I avoid "scientific" arguments. They are not appropriate
for the determination of Dharma and usually backfire on the people making
them.

See my reply to Gregg for the answer to your question. It doesn't imply
any inferiority in women or superiority in men. Just difference.

> There appears to be plenty of discrimination against woment in
> the english translation of Manu Smriti that I read recently. But
> the smriti itself is supposed to be based on Shruti's - what am
> I missing here? Maybe something got misinterpreted in the
> translations? I am being too naive in my interpretation and the
> superficial statements actually signify much deeper truths? I
> find it hard to believe that the shruti's are actually that
> misogynistic but my reading of Manu Smriti has left me deeply
> disturbed. I am finding hard to reconcile its contents to the
> rest of Sanatana dharma.
>

Sanatana Dharma is not egalitarian. But why should it be? There are
times when equality is a good thing. For instance I'm glad I live in a
democracy where all people have a say in the government. But I'm glad my
doctors are people who passed Medical School not just anybody who
expressed an interest in becoming a doctor. To determine if this
inequality in Sanatana Dharma is misogynistic, let's ask does it prevent
women from fulfilling their spiritual needs? I think the answer is it
doesn't. And the large numbers of women we see being involved in
religious activities says to me I'm not the only one who feels this way.

> On a totally different note,
> Is sanyasa allowed for one who never took the brahmacharya
> ashrama?
>

Again see my reply to Greg.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Women priests
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 00:32:33 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Kindly note that, at many places (such as Br. U 1.4.17) the word praja is
used, which means progeny; but this word is routinely mistranslated as son
in some books I read, but praja also includes daughter.

When putR is specifically mentioned (Br.U 1.5.17) it is meant to be son.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: pratyaksha
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 00:43:45 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Typo: please read the word "ever" below.

>Ultimately it must be mentioned, the rules of the game are always in
> >place, and no rule had "ever" been broken. Only we only do not realize
> >what is going on.

The ritual is always perfect, if it exists in the first place. The only
misperceptions are those that we see due to adhyAsa.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 03:39:41 -0400
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>On Thu, 3 May 2001, Shuba wrote:
>But the smriti itself is supposed to be based on Shruti's - what am
>I missing here? Maybe something got misinterpreted in the translations? >I
>am being too naive in my interpretation and the superficial >statements
>actually signify much deeper truths? I find it hard to >believe that the
>shruti's are actually that misogynistic but my reading >of Manu Smriti has
>left me deeply disturbed. I am finding hard to >reconcile its contents to
>the rest of Sanatana dharma.

This may not answer your question on manu Smrti, but here is something about
what shruti says:

I don't believe in white wash. Following is what the original Shruti, and
very dear to me, kausItaki brAhmaNa says..

Kau.Br. xv.4 (niSkevalya zAstra)

"... He should recite the concluding verse in a lower tone; so his wife is
unlikely to fall away. (He should recite) in still lower a tone so does his
wife become as it were not uplifted in her mind..."

I hope it is clear, there is enough misogyny in the shruti, for those who
want to read. Shruti also teaches techniques how to keep wife subdued. :-)

Now please let me explain. I had the same question: If veda is supposed to
be knowledge why does it contain such nonsense?

Kau Br xv.4 says a little earlier ..

"...Moreover the bRhati pragAtha is expiration and inspiration..."

the whole topic concludes with..

"...The strophe is the self; the antistrophe offspring; the supplementary
verse the wife; cattle the pragAtha; the hymn the body; the Nivid what is
within the body; the concluding verse a support; the offering verse food."
(This is a close parallel to Br.U. 1.4.17 which is openly a prANAyAma based
on five fold sAma.)

The Rsis very well saw the perversions in the society, and they also saw
that there is a philosophical reason for these perversions. The interactions
in the human mind are so complex that to explain them, some times the Rsi
needs examples from real life. They went on to explain these ideas in ritual
language, where the ritual language is itself based on advaita. So
ultimately the Rsi only sees knowledge even in perversion.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From sarigela at T...
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:32:18 -0500
Reply-To: sarigela at t...
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Subject: Re: Shakti Peeth in Jalandhar
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: sarigela at T...


Quoting Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>:

> >Namskaram all,
> >Is there any "Shakti Peetham" in Jalandhar,(Panjab)?
> >
> >Regards,
> >Ramkumar
>
> The Vishvamukhi temple dedicated to Tripurmalini
 ^^^^^^^^^
>Shakti is in Jalandhar.


that should be vishnu mukhi,i guess.but i am not very
sure.
 in Saubhagya Bhaskara while commeting on the nama
 jaalandhara... (i dont remember exact nama)Shri
Bhaskararaya refers to a name called vishnumukhi.

 regards
 satish

>
> ashish
>
>
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>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: RE:Brahman & Atman (was Women priests)
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 11:25:47 -0500
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From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


-----Original Message-----
From: Jaldhar H. Vyas [mailto:jaldhar at b...]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 8:33 PM
To: ADVAITA-L at L...
Subject: Re: Women priests

Jaldhar said:
But Brahman is not something which can be given or taken away. It is the
underlying ground of everything. Because of maya, most things are
ignorant of that fact. Something like a stone cannot realize this because
it lacks self-awareness. An animal has self-awareness but is a prisoner
of its' desires (i.e. goes into heat every month etc.) But a sentient
being that is capable of renouncing what is not real can transcend that
ignorance and gain knowledge (jnana) of its' true Brahman-nature. This is
moksha (liberation) the goal of Vedanta. There can be no restrictions on
who can achieve that goal because it was only from the non-Brahman
standpoint there was a goal to achieve.


My question:

How does Atman figure into all this? Does the Atman exist in all setient
beings? Or does it exist also in rocks and spinach, but they haven't the
'tools' to realize it. Is not realization of the Atman, the Self, the goal
of all this? As a westerner, The distinctions among many of these terms are
difficult to fully comprehend. For instance: Brahman, Self, Atman, and the
western notion of the soul (duality, is the important difference here,
right?)

Gregg

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:59:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Brahman & Atman (was Women priests)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Fri, 4 May 2001 11:25:47 -0500, Bell, Gregg <jbell3 at C...> wrote:

>
>My question:
>
>How does Atman figure into all this? Does the Atman exist in all setient
>beings? Or does it exist also in rocks and spinach, but they haven't the
>'tools' to realize it. Is not realization of the Atman, the Self, the goal
>of all this? As a westerner, The distinctions among many of these terms are
>difficult to fully comprehend. For instance: Brahman, Self, Atman, and the
>western notion of the soul (duality, is the important difference here,
>right?)
>
>Gregg
>

Gregg,

I apologize if you wanted Jaldhar or other learned members to repond to
this but I will give it a shot and be hopefully corrected if I err.

Atma does not exist *in* beings. It is Brahman, the Supreme Absolute. The
distinction is only used when referring to a jIvA i.e. jIvA realizing it
was AtmA or Brahman all along etc. The AtmA pervades all - it is All. So we
cannot say it exists in an object - when there are no objects, how can we
think of ever ascribing objectness as an adjunct to the Absolute? So
everything is Brahman/AtmA including rocks, trees etc. Its just that the
*degree of expression* of the Absolute varies in this unreal world. We as
humans can contemplate on AtmA whereas animals cannot for the simple reason
that we are endowed with an advanced intellect, which you can translate to
being the closest layer to the AtmA. It (intellect) is more aware of the
Supreme than the Mind (manas), the mind more than the body and so forth.
Rocks etc are also Brahman but lack the awareness of it to a much greater
extent than we humans do. Brahman = AtmA = Self as far as Advaita is
concerned.

ashish

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 15:03:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


This is an interesting discussion but I am unable to participate
as much as I would like to due to time constraints imposed by some
rather hectic preparations in moving in India.

The problem of decaying Dharma is complex as has been pointed out.
When you have a complex problem there are different ways of tackling
it. One is the group of elephants approach and the army of ants approach
is another. A combination of the two is also a good approach.

The group of elephants approach means a few (one or more) towering
leaders inspire and motivate every one of us to such an extent that
we start following our dharma. Much rests on the shoulders of these
elephants or spiritual giants and India has produced such giants
from time to time.

The army of ants approach is the typical "grass-roots" approach
where local, ordinary people like you and me, follow dharma and
inspire others in our *immediate* vicinity to do the same. We are
perhaps as insignificant as ants on the global scene but we can
make a difference in our local communities.

A combination of elephants and ants is excellent because the
elephants can counter the vast, materialist propaganda that goes on
everyday in the name of advancement, consumerism, and what not.
Businesses, or for-profit organizations, continuously bombard every man,
woman, and child in almost every part of the world with messages that
lure them into becoming consumers and enjoyers of material wealth,
rather than provide any information on dharma. This propaganda has
been going on for a long time in India, after its conquest by the
West, and this is what has resulted in the abandonment of dharma
in India. The ants can be effective in their limited circles to
a significant extent but then they find that it is hard to fight this
Tsunami of materialism that is flooding the world. We need large elephants
to fight this propaganda. We can pray for the elephants to arrive.
But, in the meantime, we can act as ants and make a difference in
our own immediate circles. And we, as ants, can communicate with
each other over long distances, thanks to modern communication
methods. Let us also, in our endeavors, put technology to serve dharma,
for a change, rather than serving material interests.

Anand

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>From ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Brahman & Atman (was Women priests)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>


>
> I apologize if you wanted Jaldhar or other learned
> members to repond to
> this but I will give it a shot and be hopefully
> corrected if I err.
>
> Atma does not exist *in* beings. It is Brahman, the
> Supreme Absolute. The
> distinction is only used when referring to a jIvA
> i.e. jIvA realizing it
> was AtmA or Brahman all along etc. The AtmA pervades
> all - it is All. So we
> cannot say it exists in an object - when there are
> no objects, how can we
> think of ever ascribing objectness as an adjunct to
> the Absolute? So
> everything is Brahman/AtmA including rocks, trees
> etc. Its just that the
> *degree of expression* of the Absolute varies in
> this unreal world. We as
> humans can contemplate on AtmA whereas animals
> cannot for the simple reason
> that we are endowed with an advanced intellect,
> which you can translate to
> being the closest layer to the AtmA. It (intellect)
> is more aware of the
> Supreme than the Mind (manas), the mind more than
> the body and so forth.
> Rocks etc are also Brahman but lack the awareness of
> it to a much greater
> extent than we humans do. Brahman = AtmA = Self as
> far as Advaita is
> concerned.
>
> ashish

Ashish,
Many thanks for this answer. The Western intellect,
and increasingly the the eastern, is deluded by the
reasoning of the Atomists and their 'particles in a
limitless void.' This view helped Newton to observe
some order in the apparently chaotic universe but it
is a partial or limited view. This leads the intellect
into the first assumption that the AtmA is likewise a
particle. We are closer to an understanding of the
AtmA with the 'wavelet' of quantum theory but this is
only a reflection in the consciousness which is
Brahman/AtmA. The traditional four Mahavakyas help us
to understand this:
Prajnanam Brahma...consciousness is Brahman
Aham Brahmasmi....I am Brahman
Tat Tvam asi.....Thou art that
Ayam atma Brahma....This atma is Brahman.
I know others may choose alternative mahavakyas but as
these four represent each of the four Vedas I find
them adeqaute for my own study.
Thank you for this topic. I had not followed the
'women priests' correspondence but it would seem to
suggest that wherever we start we will end up with
Brahma/AtmA.
That is very encouraging,
Ken Knight
>
>
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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:48:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Fri, 4 May 2001 15:03:15 -0400, Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...>
wrote:

>This is an interesting discussion but I am unable to participate
>as much as I would like to due to time constraints imposed by some
>rather hectic preparations in moving in India.
>

Anand,

I hope you don't mind but I think some of us would like to know if the
reason for your move back to India is influenced more by your desire to
follow your dharma than any personal reason. I hope you don't mind that is
why I am posting to the list.

>to fight this propaganda. We can pray for the elephants to arrive.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>But, in the meantime, we can act as ants and make a difference in
>our own immediate circles. And we, as ants, can communicate with
>each other over long distances, thanks to modern communication
>methods. Let us also, in our endeavors, put technology to serve dharma,
>for a change, rather than serving material interests.
>

Actually, the elephants have always been around - don't you think? All the
Acharyas we have had and all the other saints that are alive today. Its the
ants that have to work on building a larger army.

ashish

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:38:35 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Admiring elephants is a good idea, it is the Brahman called balam
(strength). We can't design a system that depends on the supply of
elephants, it is too unreliable. We need a framework of knowledge using
which an ordinary person can do extraordinary work. How?

Be it an elephant or an ant, all of them depend on food (the next level of
Brahman); food is born of water (the next level) and so on.. We need to keep
moving up the hierarchy instead of getting stuck at one level. :-)

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 20:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Selflessness
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From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Recently there has been a lot of discussion on how difficult it is to practice
Vedas in daily life in this modern era, on how the modern civilization has
eroded all our values and there are not real role models, on what one should do
as his own dharma for furthering the cause of restoration of sanAtana dharama
etc. The following story is not in response to anyone of these threads of
thought but serves as a collective contribution. It is a very moving story
that would melt even the hardest of hearts. Many may have known the story
already, but I did not till recently and I thought it might be good to share it
for the benefit of even those few who might have missed it.

This is the story of Sri Narmadeshwar at Medhaghat.

Medhaghat is a village close to Jabalpur, MP, India. There are many hillocks
around the village. On one of them there lived a sAdhu, pious in nature and
austere in habit. He was a very great devotee of Lord Shiva. His cave was
situated close to where the river Narmada was flowing. He took bath everyday
in Narmada and subsisted only on fruits available in the nearby forests. He
spent his days entirely in chanting “om namah shivAya” with ardent enthusiasm
and devotion.

Pleased with his devotion one day Lord Shiva and Parvati seated on their
vehicle Nandi appeared in front of his cave. Sensing a brilliant glow in front
of his cave, the sAdhu opened his eyes and beheld the darshan of Lord Shiva
with Divine Mother of the Universe. Lord Shiva blessed the sAdhu and asked him
to ask for a boon. The devotee was overjoyed at the darshan and said he did
not want anything other than the Lord’s darshan. Lord Shiva then asked him to
treasure the image in heart, so that he could have the darshan at all times,
and at the same time, Lord Shiva can go back to Kailasa.

The sAdhu being noble minded pleaded with the Lord that the people of the
village downhill should also have the same darshan that he had. Lord Shiva
initially objected saying that He will not be able to grant darshan to everyone
in the village. But the sAdhu pleaded saying that the villagers were very
helpful and that he belonged to them and it would be very selfish of him to
enjoy the darshan all by himself. Lord Shiva seeing the sincerity of His
devotee, consented. The sAdhu was overjoyed. He turned to run down the hill,
but suddenly a doubt arose in his mind as to whether Lord Shiva would keep up
his promise. Innocently he asked “Will you stay here till I come? You should
not disappear as soon as I turn my back!”. Lord Shiva smiled and promised that
He would wait till the sAdhu came back.

The sAdhu ran downhill crossing forests and ended up on the bank of river
Narmada crossing which he had to go to the village. Suddenly a thought crossed
his mind. The Lord has promised to stay there till I come. What if I do not
go back? The Lord will keep up his promise and will stay there, that too with
Divine Mother. In which case not just the villagers, but generations of men
for all time could benefit from His darshan. I have had His darshan, now the
future generations should also enjoy the same. So thinking, with his mind calm
and collected, praying to the Lord, he jumped into the flowing river and gave
up his life.

Shiva and Parvati came to know of this event. They were in a dilemma. They
had to go back to Kailasa. But at the same time they had promised to give
darshan till the sAdhu came back. What to do? The all powerful Lord proved
helpless infront of a devotee. The faith of the sAdhu bound him without
chains. They decided to resolve the issue thus. Both of them picked up a huge
marble stone and with chisel and hammer carved a beautiful Nandi out of it.
Then they took two marble stones and sat facing each other. Lord Shiva carved
the loving image of Divine Mother on one stone and Parvati captured the serene
image of Shiva. They installed the idols there and blessed thus: “I will
reside in these images in microform. Whoever has darshan of our idols will
have the same benefit as of seeing our True Self and will attain salvation.”

He blessed so and departed to Kailasa. The temple still stands there and
generations of men have been profiting by one act of sacrifice by a noble
heart. Most don’t even know the story nor the existence of such a temple or
the sacrifice involved in the bringing about of such a temple. Generations
have gone by and memories of his life have faded totally from the minds of men,
but the result of his sacrifice is still there for people to see and enjoy.

Postscript:

Today we find (even brAhmaNas) finding excuses to avoid their nityakarma. We
are not willing to sacrifice even that little time that would take us to do our
sandhyAvandanam or learn some of our scriptures.

The sanAtana dharma that we so often talk about has been preserved since ages
for our benefit by noble minded people like the sAdhu above. Many gave their
everything just so that future generations can benefit. They never won any
nobel prizes or oscar awards. Neither did they care for such. They did not do
anything for recognition but for our welfare – yours and mine.

We constantly talk of the greatness of our heritage, but rarely make attempts
to be atleast fractional images of those great men whose legacy we are gloating
over today. If we do not work our best in learning and preserving the Vedas
which is the core of sanAtana dharama all our constant eulogies about "immortal
legacy" and "hoary tradition" would only amount to noise pollution.


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>From Ballakrishnen Subramaniam <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 01:58:23 -0400
Subject: Mandukya Upanishad with sankara bhasya in sanskrit with tamil meanings
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ballakrishnen Subramaniam <owner-advaita-l at L...>


5.5.01

Has anyone come across Mandukya Upanisad with Gaudapada Karika and Sankara
Bhasya for the same with elaborate tamil translation, other than the one
published by Ramakrishna Mutt, Madras, India.
Thanks
Ballakrishnen

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: decaying of Hindu varna dharma
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 06:45:03
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


>definitely more than we do, and it would be
>wonderful if the next generation of Brahamana boys could dedicate
>themselves to their varna Dharma alone.

I would be surprised if if it happens within the next 100 years! It is a
civilizational thing which as the first basic requirement requires the
material prosperity of the society - it is only then that the society will
be able to support brahmins who exist for the sake of the dharma alone. Also
the soceity should feel the need for such an effort - they should respect
the dharma (in modern India neither of these holds true!). But again a good
majority of the brahmins have lost the mental/moral/spiritual maturity to
take up such a responsibility. In short the civilization has lost its
spiritual vitality. Yes, you can have a lot of holy men teaching Vedanta and
even some people taking up samnyaasam - but for a whole section of the
society, a very intelligent section at that, to give up a life of material
comforts and embrace poverty for the sake of preservation of the dharma -
requires a higher level of philosophical/spiritual consciousness within that
section of the soceity, which unfortunately is not available at the moment.
If you want a practical example just try suggesting it to your family -
they'll think you are daft (mine do)! As I said I would be surprised if all
this happens within even the next hundred years - maybe it will happen
gradually with small groups of them taking it up and over a period of time
there'll be substantial increase in the numbers.
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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: ADVAITA-L Digest - 3 May 2001 to 4 May 2001 (#2001-107)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 07:09:46
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


>This line of thought seems to suggest that one wants religion to >survive
>in the mould in which it existed earlier. Is religion more >important or
>the welfare of the people?

The greatest problem in modern India is that Hindus have condemned Hinduism
without taking the effort to understand it (this is a general observation
and I request Naresh not to take it personally). Especially western educated
Indians try to reconcile Indian ideals with western ones and where it
doesn't match, they immediately condemn the Indian ideals. Indian tradition
and culture should be understood in its own terms. The
motivations/objectives of the Indian culture are quite different from
Western ones. In simple terms, in modern America (even in modern India)
everybody wants to be Donald Trump. In ancient India everybody wanted to be
like the Buddha. So as can be clearly seen, the
motivations/efforts/principles towards achieving these two distinct goals
will be sharply different. If you try to reconcile them, they will just not
match. The lie of modern Indian historians and "secular" thinkers is to hide
the spiritual bent of the Indian civilization and pretend then even then
everybody only tried to be materially rich and certain privileged sections
of the society exploited others for their own benefit. While if you read the
dharma shaastras it condemns the brahmin - the highest and most "priveleged"
caste - to a life of poverty and hardship.

Please read all the relevant literature with an open mind and try to
understand them in their own perspective.

>(As an aside,)To my mind, one >of the key aspects that has enabled hindu
>dharma (or sanatana dharma or >whatever name you give to it) is its ability
>to not just tolerate other >faiths but loosely speaking, to assimilate it
>as well. This >adaptability with time and situation has protected its
>people over the >ages.

It has to be clear that ancient India was not a "mutual appreaciation
society". Philosophers fought tooth and nail in support of their views and
were often venomous in condemning others who had different ideas. But since
reason had a priveleged position in the spiritual environment, whatever was
truly good and spiritually beneficial almost always survived and was adopted
by the various religious streams.

>The Bhakti movement is one such example where the proponents were not >just
>brahmins but hailed from other castes as well. But the movement >held the
>people in good stead. And as Sri Chandran pointed out, the >reasons for teh
>decline of the brahminical pursuits are not >straightforward but rather
>involved..

>Another thing to ponder over is the following.. Suppose we are refuse >the
>western influence and say we are happy with our way of life and our >books,
>how will knowledge grow? Should we be content at interpreting >what our
>forefathers said or should we take an albeit tentative step, >further?

Nobody is refusing western science. Infact to turn your back on western
science when much of the country is wallowing in poverty is foolishness.
Embrace it wholeheartedly and help alleviate the suffering of the masses.
Yes, science can be very useful to feed millions and help prevent/save
people from sickness/disabilities etc

But what is objectionable is to use science to negate spirituality. What
does science offer in terms of happiness? What does it offer with regards
problems of the mind and heart? Can it prevent death? It is here that we say
that the dharma is superior to western science - it can bring you happiness
and peace and can also help you find the meaning of life and eternity.
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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:19:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New member introduction: Jayprakash Acharya
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaste,
I am 25 year old software professional working in Bangalore. I have been
interested Indian inphilosophy for past few years. I am a avid reader of
Swami Vivekanand and I have been drawn towards vedAnta after reading his
book "What religion is". I have only a brief exposure to
AdishankarAchArya's writings, though I have read AdishanakarAchArya's
biography & watched the sanskrit movie "Adishankaracharya". I wish to learn
more from his writings.

I browsed your site advaita-vedanta.org & liked it's contents.

Kind regards,
Jayprakash Acharya

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:45:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 4 May 2001 17:48:43 -0400, Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
wrote:

>On Fri, 4 May 2001 15:03:15 -0400, Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...>
>wrote:
>
>>This is an interesting discussion but I am unable to participate
>>as much as I would like to due to time constraints imposed by some
>>rather hectic preparations in moving in India.
>>
>
>Anand,
>
>I hope you don't mind but I think some of us would like to know if the
>reason for your move back to India is influenced more by your desire to
>follow your dharma than any personal reason. I hope you don't mind that is
>why I am posting to the list.
>

 Frankly, in my case, I am going back for a combination of reasons
 rather than dharma alone. But I do believe that inspite of all the
 spiritual decline that has happened in India, there is still an
 iota of dharma left there (lesha-mAtra) and I can follow my dharma
 better in India than in any other place, perhaps not a whole lot
 better than in any other place in these modern times, but still
 better nevertheless. I also believe that it is possible to follow
 your dharma outside India; it may be harder to do that but it is
 not impossible. So I have no hard feelings against those who want
 to move out of India and stay out of India forever. But I feel one
 should not move to India or stay away from India for emotional reasons.

 That said, there is distinct possibility of my visiting the US and
 other countries in the West quite frequently on business. So I won't
 lose contact with the West completely. Is that good or bad? :-)

>>to fight this propaganda. We can pray for the elephants to arrive.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>But, in the meantime, we can act as ants and make a difference in
>>our own immediate circles. And we, as ants, can communicate with
>>each other over long distances, thanks to modern communication
>>methods. Let us also, in our endeavors, put technology to serve dharma,
>>for a change, rather than serving material interests.
>>
>
>Actually, the elephants have always been around - don't you think? All the
>Acharyas we have had and all the other saints that are alive today. Its the
>ants that have to work on building a larger army.
>

 Yes, that is true but we need lots and lots of ants. But the ants might
 not be able to engage themselves in a powerful counter attack against
 the propaganda machine of Western materialism on a national scale in
 India. Unless, of course, some ants themselves graduate into elephants!

 Anand

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 12:06:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New member introduction: K.T. Nishant
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


 Dear All,
 I am K.T Nishant doing my Ph.D in the dept of biochemistry
 at the Indian Institute of science,Bangalore.I am interested in
 knowing more about Advaita philosophy,especialy as laid down
 by Sri Adi Shankaracharya.I have previously read the works
 of Swami Chimmayananda,Sivananda,Vivekananda,Swami Rama and Paramahansa
 Yogananda and the Bhagvad Gita.But i have not as yet read the
 Vedas,Upanishads,Brahmasutras directly.I have only read a few
 commentaries about them wirtten by others.
 Regards,
 Nishant

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: Brahman and Atman
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:51:57
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


Gregg Bell :

>How does Atman figure into all this? Does the Atman exist in all setient
>beings? Or does it exist also in rocks and spinach, but they haven't the
>'tools' to realize it. Is not realization of the Atman, the Self, the goal
>of all this? As a westerner, The distinctions among many of these terms are
>difficult to fully comprehend. For instance: Brahman, Self, Atman, and the
>western notion of the soul (duality, is the important difference here,
>right?)

Ken Knight :

>I had not followed the
>'women priests' correspondence but it would seem to
>suggest that wherever we start we will end up with
>Brahma/AtmA.

First thing to understand in Advaita is this : it is not that Atman is in
you. It is not some abstract entity which is in you or in your body etc. YOU
are Atman. You are not aware of the true nature of your own self. To know
yourself is liberation.

So there's no question of finally winding up as Atman/Brahman either. You
always are brahman. Just that you're not aware of it.

The use of words like "Self" is what leads to confusion. So people think
the Self is something eternal *in* us or inside our body etc. The Self is
nothing but you - your own self - yourself.

At a metaphysical level this self/Atman is called Brahman. All things in
this world - from the smallest organism to inanimate matter to our own
body and brain - are all only Brahman.

So if everything is already Brahman, then why don't we know it?

Because since we are humans we tend to live like human beings - to live a
natural life as a human being is to identify with names and forms and thus
is the infinite made finite - the unity broken into diversity.

But to draw back into your essence - your selfness - Atman - is to break
the tendency to think and live like a normal human. Then we identify with
the transcendental and the mortal becomes immortal.

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>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: RE: Brahman and Atman
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:27:19 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>First thing to understand in Advaita is this : it is not that Atman is in
>you. It is not some abstract entity which is in you or in your body etc.
YOU
>are Atman. You are not aware of the true nature of your own self.

But here, you speak only of the fourth condition of Atman, correct?

>From the Mandukya Upanishad:
OM. The eternal Word is all: what was, what is, and what shall be,
And what beyond is in eternity. All is OM.
Brahman is all and Atman is Brahman.
Atman, the Self, has four conditions.

The first condition is the waking life of outward-moving consciousness,
Enjoying the seven outer gross elements.

The second condition is the dreaming life of inner-moving consciousness,

Enjoying the seven inner elements in its own light and solitude.

The third condition is the sleeping life of silent consciousness,
When a person has no desires and beholds no dreams.

The fourth condition is Atman in Its own pure state:
The awakened life of supreme consciousness.

It is neither outer nor inner consciousness,
Neither semi-consciousness nor sleeping consciousness,

Neither mere consciousness nor unconsciousness.

It is Atman, the Spirit Himself, that cannot be seen or touched,
That is above all distinctions, beyond thought and ineffable.

In the union with It is the supreme proof of Its Reality.
It is Peace and Love.

End of Quote.

Gregg

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:04:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


ko dharmaH sarvadharmANAM bhavataH paramo mataH |
kiM japanmuchyate janturjanmasaMsArabandhanAt.h ||3||

In your opinion what dharma is the supreme (or essence) of all
dharma-s? Meditating on what all the living beings can free themselves
from the bondage of saMsaara?


ko dharmaH pUrvokta laxaNaH sarvadharmANAM sarveShAM dharmANAM madhye
bhavataH paramaH prakR^iShTho dharmaH mataH abhipretaH iti pa~nchamaH
prashnaH | kim japyaM japan.h uchchopAMshu mAnasa laxaNaM japaM
kurvan.h jantu jananadharmA | anena jantushabdena
japArchanastvanAdiShu yathA yogyaM sarva prANinAM adhikAraM sUchayati |
janma saMsArabandhanAt.h janma aGYAna vijR^imbhitAnAma
vidyAkAryANAm.h upalaxaNam.h, saMsAraH avidyA, tAbhyAM janma
saMsArAbhyAM yat.h bandhanaM tasmAt muchyate mukto bhavati iti ShaShTaH
prashnaH | muchyate janmasaMsAra bandhanAt iti idamupalaxaNam.h
itareShAM phalAnAmapi | etadgrahaNaM tu moxasya
prAdhAnyaravyApanArtham.h ||


The fifth question (pa~nchama prashnaH) is what dharma (ko dharmaH),
amidst the aforementioned (previous conversation (puurvokta laxaNaH))
all dharma-s (sarveShaaM dharmaaNaM) is supreme or the eminent
(praKR^iShTaH) in your esteemed opinion (bhavataH abhipretaH)? A japam
which is the repetition of a name or mantra can be of three types, loud
(uchchha), in low voice (upaaMshu) (just with the movement of lips) and
internal (maanasa) (reference: manu smriti). The word jantuH means that
which has taken birth (jananam). By this generic term (jantu) we
understand that the qualification (adhikAram) for repetition of mantra
(japa), worshipping God with His names (archana) and praising Him
(with stava-s) is there for all living beings (sarva prANinaam).
saMsaara is avidya. janma or birth is a manifestation (vijR^iMbhita) of
ignorance (aj~nAna) expressed by (upalaxaNa) in the form of name
(nAma), differentiating knowledge (vidya), and action (karya).
Sixth question (shhashhTama prashnaH )is , what is that liberates
(muchyate) that is make one liberates (mukto bhavati) from the bondage
(bhandanaat.h) of those (tasmat) both (taabhyam) janma and saMsara.
By saying liberates (muchyate) from the bondage (bandhanaat) of janma
and saMsara, liberating from the effects of all other fruits
(idareShaaM phalaanaapi)are indicated (upalaxaNam). Because of the
importance (prAdhAnyaH) moxa and as it cannot be covered under other
categories (avyApana), this word is used.

Ravi Mayavaram and Savithri Devaraj
-----------------------
* My translation will have errors. Kindly correct me. Except the
desire to learn (so that I can worship better), I have no other
qualifications. Fortunately, Savithriji has keyed in the original text,
so the errors will be clear and obvious to you.

* I am not sure of the last line. etat.h grahaNam tu moxasya prAdhanyaH
avyapAna artham). I understand it as, the last question explicity
mentions freedom from saMsaara and not from the effects of other fruits
because of the importance of moxa and the fact that it does not come
under other categories, but does cover all other categories.


* Even translations published in famous books can have obvious
misinterpretations. N. S. Anantakrishna Sastry in his translation,
translated "jantu" as man and human. Not withstanding the fact that
shankara clearly says jantuH janana dharmaaH, and later yatha yogyam
sarva praaNinaam adhikaaram suuchayanti. Translation of N.S.A is
brief, and does not faithfully follow the text.








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>From "naresh cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 21:04:12 -0400
Reply-To: n.cuntoor at l...
Subject: Re: Brahman & Atman
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "naresh cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


 Namaskara,
I agree with the sentiment expressed a couple of days ago (by Sri Jaldhar Vyas, I think..but I could be wrong about the reference) that reconciling today's scientific principles with the Vedas may be an unnecessary task.
Talking about wavelets and so on....I don't think physicists or electrical engineers (who also use wavelets) are using wavelets to understand Atma! Our goals, ie, the goal of electrical engineers is far less ambitious in the use of wavelets! Wavelets simply happen to have some nice properties which help us overcome certain difficulties.

Regards,
Naresh
he eastern, is deluded by the
>reasoning of the Atomists and their 'particles in a
>limitless void.' This view helped Newton to observe
>some order in the apparently chaotic universe but it
>is a partial or limited view. This leads the intellect
>into the first assumption that the AtmA is likewise a
>particle. We are closer to an understanding of the
>AtmA with the 'wavelet' of quantum theory but this is
>only a reflection in the consciousness which is
>Brahman/AtmA. The traditional four Mahavakyas help



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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 09:46:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Brahman and Atman
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Sat, 5 May 2001 13:27:19 -0500, Bell, Gregg <jbell3 at C...> wrote:

>>First thing to understand in Advaita is this : it is not that Atman is in
>>you. It is not some abstract entity which is in you or in your body etc.
>YOU
>>are Atman. You are not aware of the true nature of your own self.
>
>But here, you speak only of the fourth condition of Atman, correct?
>

Gregg,

Again I apologize for jumping into a question directed at Shri Nanda.

I don't think that the Upanishad (which I have not read myself)
means "fourth condition *of* the Atman". Atman is itself - pure Being. That
is it. Nothing more can be said about it. It cannot have conditions because
that will violate what principles our finite intellects ascribe to it ,
namely changeless, formless etc. So it cannot have conditions of Being this
at one time and that at another.

Paramhansa Swami Krishnananda of Divine Life Society has explained such
doubts beautifully and forcefully in his books which are available online (
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org ). Please read "Secret of Katha
Upanishad" and "Chhandogya Upanishad" at his website.

>From what I recall of these books, I will attempt an answer. Think of
yourself as a point of expression in the universe to which you are
eternally connected. If you think of yourself like this, the troubles that
plague the mind on account of the universe being "outside" will recede
somewhat. This point of expression is then yourself i.e. body, mind,
intellect etc. Intellect being closer to the Real Absolute Brahman is more
aware of itself than, say, the body. Our ancients knew these layers as
Koshas namely,

Annamaya - the gross physical layer, the body
PrANamaya - the layer where the pancha (5) prAnas are sitauted
Manomaya - the layer of the mind (manas)
Vij~nAnamaya - the layer of the intellect
Anandamaya - the layer of bliss

Out of these, the Anandamaya, the layer that is closest to pure Being,
receives the bliss of pure Being more forcefully than say the prANamaya. As
long as the intellect and mind etc are directed towards "the outside
universe", the bliss is felt in reduced quantities. Once its
directed "inwards", the bliss is felt more forcefully. But these layers are
ultimately unreal as the bliss each of them feels is only a reflection of
the pure Consciousness-Being Absolute. So the point of expression is like a
bubble on water. When it bursts, water alone is known along with the
knowledge that the bubble was water as well.

There is, in one of our Upanishads, a story of a Guru telling His shishya
not about the Atman but about these 5 koshas (layers) and the shishya then
figured out the Atman on his own.

The Atman, therefore, does not change or undergo any conditions or phases.
The conditions, the layers, the universe etc are only percieved as long as
the Atman is not known. The universe becomes irrelavant when Atman is
known. You don't remember what you dreamt last month? Its irrelevant - a
dream world manufactured completely by the mind even though it appeared
real. Now that you are awake, you *know* it was a dream and it's irrelevant
to reflect why you felt one way or the other in the dream. Swami
Krishnananda gives a humourous example : Suppose you are having lunch with
your friends in your dream and you suddenly wake up, so do you think your
friends are still back "there" having lunch?

ashish

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 18:23:00
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


Greg Bell :

>But here, you speak only of the fourth condition of Atman, correct?

>From the Mandukya Upanishad:
>OM. The eternal Word is all: what was, what is, and what shall be,
>And what beyond is in eternity. All is OM.
>Brahman is all and Atman is Brahman.
>Atman, the Self, has four conditions.

>The first condition is the waking life of outward-moving consciousness,
>Enjoying the seven outer gross elements.

>The second condition is the dreaming life of inner-moving consciousness,

>Enjoying the seven inner elements in its own light and solitude.

>The third condition is the sleeping life of silent consciousness,
>When a person has no desires and beholds no dreams.

>The fourth condition is Atman in Its own pure state:
>The awakened life of supreme consciousness.

>It is neither outer nor inner consciousness,
>Neither semi-consciousness nor sleeping consciousness,

>Neither mere consciousness nor unconsciousness.

>It is Atman, the Spirit Himself, that cannot be seen or touched,
>That is above all distinctions, beyond thought and ineffable.

>In the union with It is the supreme proof of Its Reality.
>It is Peace and Love.

Waking state, dream state, deep sleep, turiya - are all only objective
observations of phenomenal and noumenal experience. The Atman always is -
you always are the Atman in whatever state you are in, whether in waking
state or dreaming or deep sleep. Even as you write, you're the Atman and
even as I read I'm the Atman - and we're not ultimately two different
entities and there's no difference between us.

First thing to do is let go viewing the Atman as an objective entity -
something apart from you. You are the Atman and all answers regarding the
Atman has to be sought subjectively - from your own experiences and
feelings.

Even as Ashish writes :

>I don't think that the Upanishad (which I have not read myself)
>means "fourth condition *of* the Atman". Atman is itself - pure Being. That
>is it. Nothing more can be said about it. It cannot have conditions because
>that will violate what principles our finite intellects ascribe to it ,
>namely changeless, formless etc. So it cannot have conditions of Being this
>at one time and that at another.

This objectivization of your own self is to be avoided in you are a serious
practicing Advaitin. Let go of viewing your true nature objectively - how
will that ever benefit you? Everytime you're sad, angry, jealous, lustful,
desirous - always probe inwards as to whether you really are so. If you are
one unitary thing - how can you be different things at different times? How
can you be a happy person at one time, an angry person at another moment in
time? Are these qualities an integral part of you or are these apart from
you? If it is the former what is the relation between you and these
qualities and also how can two things contradictory in nature be one thing?
And if they're the latter - ie apart from you - why should they affect you?
Do not seek answers for these questions objectively. Probe inwards and know
from your own feelings and experiences - intuit all these subjectively -
know your true nature.

Actually Satya Sai Baba teaches a novel and effective practice. You are
Brahman. The Vedas and the AchAryas assert this. So keep saying that again
and again. Whenever you feel sad or miserable, question why this is so? How
can you - the ever blissful Brahman - ever be sad? Are you really sad? What
are the conditions which give rise to this sadness? Probe inwards and find
the answer. The scriptures are for the sake of pointing you to the goal - do
not keep speculating about their content objectively - this is absolutely
useless beyond a certain point. Once you have a decent idea about the
fundamentals apply these teachings to your own person and weigh them against
yourself psychologically. Practice Atma Vichaaram earnestly and
intelligently.
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>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: RE: Atman and Brahman
Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 13:37:28 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thanks, Nanda,

Yes, I understand what you are saying about the "conditions." Could it be
that the translator of the verse I found missed a sublty of the true meaning
of the authentic text? Maybe it should be translated more as the 'four ways
Atman can be experienced.'


-----Original Message-----
From: nanda chandran [mailto:vpcnk at H...]
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 1:44 PM
To: ADVAITA-L at L...
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman


Greg Bell :

>But here, you speak only of the fourth condition of Atman, correct?

>From the Mandukya Upanishad:
>OM. The eternal Word is all: what was, what is, and what shall be,
>And what beyond is in eternity. All is OM.
>Brahman is all and Atman is Brahman.
>Atman, the Self, has four conditions.

>The first condition is the waking life of outward-moving consciousness,
>Enjoying the seven outer gross elements.

>The second condition is the dreaming life of inner-moving consciousness,

>Enjoying the seven inner elements in its own light and solitude.

>The third condition is the sleeping life of silent consciousness,
>When a person has no desires and beholds no dreams.

>The fourth condition is Atman in Its own pure state:
>The awakened life of supreme consciousness.

>It is neither outer nor inner consciousness,
>Neither semi-consciousness nor sleeping consciousness,

>Neither mere consciousness nor unconsciousness.

>It is Atman, the Spirit Himself, that cannot be seen or touched,
>That is above all distinctions, beyond thought and ineffable.

>In the union with It is the supreme proof of Its Reality.
>It is Peace and Love.

Waking state, dream state, deep sleep, turiya - are all only objective
observations of phenomenal and noumenal experience. The Atman always is -
you always are the Atman in whatever state you are in, whether in waking
state or dreaming or deep sleep. Even as you write, you're the Atman and
even as I read I'm the Atman - and we're not ultimately two different
entities and there's no difference between us.

First thing to do is let go viewing the Atman as an objective entity -
something apart from you. You are the Atman and all answers regarding the
Atman has to be sought subjectively - from your own experiences and
feelings.

Even as Ashish writes :

>I don't think that the Upanishad (which I have not read myself)
>means "fourth condition *of* the Atman". Atman is itself - pure Being. That
>is it. Nothing more can be said about it. It cannot have conditions because
>that will violate what principles our finite intellects ascribe to it ,
>namely changeless, formless etc. So it cannot have conditions of Being this
>at one time and that at another.

This objectivization of your own self is to be avoided in you are a serious
practicing Advaitin. Let go of viewing your true nature objectively - how
will that ever benefit you? Everytime you're sad, angry, jealous, lustful,
desirous - always probe inwards as to whether you really are so. If you are
one unitary thing - how can you be different things at different times? How
can you be a happy person at one time, an angry person at another moment in
time? Are these qualities an integral part of you or are these apart from
you? If it is the former what is the relation between you and these
qualities and also how can two things contradictory in nature be one thing?
And if they're the latter - ie apart from you - why should they affect you?
Do not seek answers for these questions objectively. Probe inwards and know
from your own feelings and experiences - intuit all these subjectively -
know your true nature.

Actually Satya Sai Baba teaches a novel and effective practice. You are
Brahman. The Vedas and the AchAryas assert this. So keep saying that again
and again. Whenever you feel sad or miserable, question why this is so? How
can you - the ever blissful Brahman - ever be sad? Are you really sad? What
are the conditions which give rise to this sadness? Probe inwards and find
the answer. The scriptures are for the sake of pointing you to the goal - do
not keep speculating about their content objectively - this is absolutely
useless beyond a certain point. Once you have a decent idea about the
fundamentals apply these teachings to your own person and weigh them against
yourself psychologically. Practice Atma Vichaaram earnestly and
intelligently.
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 01:49:30 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Nanda Chandran wrote..
>Waking state, dream state, deep sleep, turiya - are all only objective
>observations of phenomenal and noumenal experience. The Atman always >is -
>you always are the Atman in whatever state you are in, whether in >waking
>state or dreaming or deep sleep. Even as you write, you're the >Atman and
>even as I read I'm the Atman - and we're not ultimately two >different
>entities and there's no difference between us.

I am afraid the Shruti says there are only three states (objective or not).
The turIya (lit. fourth) is only the background on which we see the three
states as superimpositions. There is no fifth item caled Atman. Atman is
itself the fourth, the turIya.

Of the three states, the first one is objective (waking), the second one is
semi-objective (dream), and the third is subjective (deep-sleep). The fourth
is not a state. When we reject the three states, only the background
remains. I admit that the extra verbose in upaniSat re: consciousness is a
bit confusing.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:09:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Mon, 7 May 2001 01:49:30 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>>Sri Nanda Chandran wrote..
>>Waking state, dream state, deep sleep, turiya - are all only objective
>>observations of phenomenal and noumenal experience. The Atman always >is -
>>you always are the Atman in whatever state you are in, whether in >waking
>>state or dreaming or deep sleep. Even as you write, you're the >Atman and
>>even as I read I'm the Atman - and we're not ultimately two >different
>>entities and there's no difference between us.
>
>I am afraid the Shruti says there are only three states (objective or not).
>The turIya (lit. fourth) is only the background on which we see the three
>states as superimpositions. There is no fifth item caled Atman. Atman is
>itself the fourth, the turIya.
>

If that is true, i.e. there are only three states, then what is the state
in which one is in when one has the experience of Savikalpa SamAdhi? It
cannot be any of the three, because ignorance alone is percieved in deep
sleep, so Savikalpa samAdhi cannot be compared with it. Then again, one's
ego (I-ness) remains i.e. I am having the experience of samAdhi, so which
state is that - we cannot say it is the same state as that of a jivanmukta
when all is perceived as Brahman. Could you please elaborate from the
Shruti.

thanks
ashish

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:57:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New member introduction: K.N. Venkataraman
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri GurubhyOh Namaha!
Sri MAthraeh Namaha!

My name is K N Venkataraman and I am based in Ottawa,
Canada. Since childhood I have been blessed by association
with learned vedic scholars in our house in Mylapore,
Madras. Our grandfather Shri Rajagopala Shastri was
instrumental, through the will of the Devi, in making sure
that all his grandchildren are Sri Vidya initiates. However
the blessing of continuing the family panchAyatana pooja
and the SriChakra pooja has been bestowed at my hands,
though being at a far away place.

By profession I am a MBA in Finance from XLRI Jamshedpur,
and have been with MNC banks. Presently I am heading the
Treasury Risks for a big Canadian Financial Institution in
Ottawa. Otherwise I am a extremely incapable seeker
blessed by the Devi in many ways.

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 16:17:48
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


> >Sri Nanda Chandran wrote..
> >Waking state, dream state, deep sleep, turiya - are all only objective
> >observations of phenomenal and noumenal experience. The Atman always >is
>-
> >you always are the Atman in whatever state you are in, whether in >waking
> >state or dreaming or deep sleep. Even as you write, you're the >Atman and
> >even as I read I'm the Atman - and we're not ultimately two >different
> >entities and there's no difference between us.
>
>I am afraid the Shruti says there are only three states (objective or not).
>The turIya (lit. fourth) is only the background on which we see the three
>states as superimpositions. There is no fifth item caled Atman. Atman is
>itself the fourth, the turIya.
>
>Of the three states, the first one is objective (waking), the second one is
>semi-objective (dream), and the third is subjective (deep-sleep). The
>fourth
>is not a state. When we reject the three states, only the background
>remains.

I've not said anything different. Just that I'm viewing it from the
subjective standpoint.
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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: Re: Significance of Linga
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:44:48 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


Hi all.
 Just FYI, please send your postings to
ADVAITA-L at L... When you send it to listmaster, it
comes only to the four of us who manage the list. I am forwarding this post
to the list.
bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
Vaidya.





 "RAMASWAMY
 BALU" To: listmaster at l...
 <jsrswamy at h... cc:
 mail.com> Subject: Significance of Linga

 05/06/01
 07:51 AM






why lord Shiva is worshipped in the form of Linga? What is the
significance
of Linga symbol.
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:35:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Ravishankarji,

I am trying to understand. I need some help!

> janma aGYAna vijR^imbhitAnAma
> vidyAkAryANAm.h upalaxaNam.h, saMsAraH avidyA, tAbhyAM janma
> saMsArAbhyAM yat.h bandhanaM tasmAt muchyate mukto bhavati iti ShaShTaH

> saMsaara is avidya. janma or birth is a manifestation (vijR^iMbhita) of
> ignorance (aj~nAna) expressed by (upalaxaNa) in the form of name
> (nAma), differentiating knowledge (vidya), and action (karya).

Is this the right translation? I am not saying it is not, I am only asking.

"vijR^imbhitAnAma" has a dIrgha "A" inbetween. How did you do the
padachcheda?
kAryANAm is in the sixth case (vibhakthi) which is not reflected in your
translation.

Another question: Why is Shankara distinguishing between samsAra and janma.
Is not liberation from one an automatic liberation from other?

> Because of the
> importance (prAdhAnyaH) moxa and as it cannot be covered under other
> categories (avyApana), this word is used.
> * I am not sure of the last line. etat.h grahaNam tu moxasya prAdhanyaH
> avyapAna artham). I understand it as, the last question explicity
> mentions freedom from saMsaara and not from the effects of other fruits
> because of the importance of moxa and the fact that it does not come
> under other categories, but does cover all other categories.

I can't understand this. Can you elaborate?

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


>
> * Even translations published in famous books can have obvious
> misinterpretations. N. S. Anantakrishna Sastry in his translation,
> translated "jantu" as man and human. Not withstanding the fact that
> shankara clearly says jantuH janana dharmaaH, and later yatha yogyam
> sarva praaNinaam adhikaaram suuchayanti. Translation of N.S.A is
> brief, and does not faithfully follow the text.
>
>

1) I am sorry of using the wrong initials for the author. It should be
R. Ananthakrishna Sastry. Full record of the book is

UNIFORM TITLE:
Visnusahasranama. English & Sanskrit.
TITLE:
Visnusahasranama : with the bhasya of Sri Samkaracarya / translatedinto
English in the light of Sri Samkara's bhasya by R. Ananthakrishna
Sastry.
EDITION:
1st ed.
PUBLISHED:
Adyar, Madras, India : Adyar Library and Research Centre, c1980.
DESCRIPTION:
xxx, 475 p. ; 22 cm.
SERIES:
Adyar Library general series. 8
NOTES:
Half title: Visnusahasranamastotram.
Text and commentary in Sanskrit; translation and introd. in English.
Includes indexes.
ISBN 0-8356-7542-4.
Bibliography: p. (433)-434.
OTHER AUTHORS:
Sastry, R. Anantakrishna.
Sankaracarya
OTHER TITLES:
Visnusahasranamastotram.
OCLC NUMBER:
19538243

Even though his transtion of vsb is brief and approximate, his
translation fo lalitasahasranAmabhAshhya of bhAskararAya is pretty
faithful to the original text.


2) The last line should be

etadgrahaNaM tu moxasya prAdhAnyakhyApanArtham.h ||

This makes it clearer.


3) SVS I will think about your questions and reply you soon. I thank
you for your response. This also indicates to me that I should be more
careful and pay attention to details.






=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:29:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Shri.Jaldhar-ji,

>Our shastras are rational in the sense that given basic
>assumptions, they reason and expand on them
>logically. But they are not scientific or only
>coincidentally so.

And who makes those basic assumptions and what are _they_ based
on? The environment at that point in time? In our current
world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of you and me?
What makes one set of assumptions superior to another?


> Sanatana Dharma is not egalitarian. But why should it be?

I am sorry, but how can it NOT be? Its not at all obvious to me
how it can NOT be egalitarian.

Please correct my understanding here.

1. The basic premise of Advaita is that there is no duality.
2. Sanatana dharma is a dharma which if properly followed, will
lead one on the path toward realization of that non-duality.

So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a physical
form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is supposed
to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
its present context?

>let's ask does it prevent women from fulfilling their
>spiritual needs? I think the answer is it doesn't.

Sorry, I beg to differ. It does not fulfill my spiritual needs
as a woman, even if it fulfills that of every other woman on
this planet. Why? I am intrinsically not attracted to the path
of total submission and mindless surrender to the husband as
prescribed in the Shastra's. That means I have ego left in me,
no doubt, and thats something I need to rid myself of before I
can progress spiritually.

Please see:
http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm

The paramacharya equates surrendering to a husband with
surrendering to a guru for different genders based on the Manu
Smriti. Is it only me who sees a big distinction between a
husband and a guru? Not every brahmin male qualifies as a guru
at any level, but every brahmin male qualifies as somebody's
husband at the most basic level! Women can live with a brahmin
man and attain moksha by giving up their ego but the reverse is
not true even though we believe in non-duality because ? What
am I missing here?

I am admittedly not good enough for the path of total
surrender - maybe because I was not married off at 7 as
recommended and have developed an ego now. But I am told I am
fit to be a Brahman's wife, to be the mother of Brahman sons
who can study the scriptures, _but_ personally, I am not
qualified to study them and the only hope for moksha for me is
to totally surrender to my husband.

What if I don't want a husband??! Am I condemned to a fate of
never achieveing moksha no matter what my level of mumukshutvam
is? No marriage, no moksha seems more of a blackmail than any
degree of justice to me.

Regards,
Shuba



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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: dehAtmabuddhi
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


The most important and the most dangerous of all the obstacles that
stand in the way of liberation is the dehAtmabuddhi. Its main strength
is we easily under-estimate it. Ah! I know I am not the body! Easy to
claim!! Yet, does our life and actions reflect it? At least, mine does
not.




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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 22:21:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Mon, 7 May 2001 21:04:25 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>>If that is true, i.e. there are only three states, then what is the >state
>>in which one is in when one has the experience of Savikalpa >SamAdhi? It
>>cannot be any of the three, because ignorance alone is >percieved in deep
>>sleep, so Savikalpa samAdhi cannot be compared with >it. Then again, one's
>>ego (I-ness) remains i.e. I am having the >experience of samAdhi, so which
>>state is that - we cannot say it is >the same state as that of a
jivanmukta
>>when all is perceived as >Brahman. Could you please elaborate from the
>>Shruti.
>
>Savikalpa samAdhi belongs to a different model of the universe consisting
of
>different samAdhis like saMprjnAta, asamprajnAta, savikalpa, nirvikalpa
etc.
>
>>ignorance alone is percieved in deep sleep
>
>Now this is serious. I fully understand gItAchArya said that pramAda
Alasya,
>nidra, bhaya etc are tamoguNa, but it was in a different context. Excessive
>or untimely nidra is tamoguNa, but nidra as such is not tamoguNa. It is
>prajna, the causal state, creator, the letter M and so on.
>

By ignorance, I mean avidyA. Only avidyA is percieved during deep sleep.
This avidyA prevents us from realizing the true Atman which is most closely
experienced during deep sleep.


>People routinely interpret mANDUkya saying: Deep-sleep is ignorance, dreams
>are silly and unreal, but only waking state gives us a chance to see the
>real world and act in this world, so waking state is the highest state
which
>we must utilize properly to achieve non-duality.
>

I doubt I suggested deep sleep is ignorance so not worth anything. On the
contrary, this is the state closest to true Being.

What I was aksing about was that if there are only three states, then which
state does Savikalpa samAdhi come under as ego is still percieved in it. If
we consider it to fall under turiyA, then turiyA does not become an
undifferentiated state - it encompasses several states in that case.

ashish

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:15:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Shri. Bhadriah-ji,

It was not my intention to add negativity to the discussion. I
was merely countering Shri. Jaldhar-ji's assertion that
spiritual needs of all women have already been met and that
women therefore should/need not seek to study the vedas
formally. He also questioned the need for Sanatana Dharma to be
egalitarian and that is another statement I am having trouble
understanding. (Jaldhar-ji, please correct me if I
misunderstood).

I would like to think that there is something more I can do as
a woman besides raising dharmically inclined sons (not
children) as per the specific suggestions in response to my
earlier question.

Regards,
Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)






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---- On , Bhadraiah Mallampalli (vaidix at H...) wrote:

> Smt Shuba-ji
>
> There is no need to take the discussion to such negativity.
The zAstras
> assume the ideal situation of the presence a caring husband
who follows
> dharma.
>
> In your case you say, you do not want to take up the path as
prescribed,
> and
> you still work in society just for your own subsistence, or
you might
> decide
> to adopt children or whatever. For people like you there is an
> alternative.
> Br.U. 1.4.17 has a meditation for people who decide to be
alone.
>
> "The sacrificer is self, speech is the wife, eye is human
wealth, ear is
> divine wealth, prANa is the child".
>
> This verse is enough for you to achieve whatever you want to
achieve.
> You
> need not study rest of the sAstras, it will be revealed to
you.
>
> This subject is not supposed to be challenged, but it is not
as easy as
> it
> looks.
>
> Regards
> Bhadraiah
>
>
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================
>
>

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>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 23:22:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


Smt. Shuba raises a number of valid points that need to be
addressed fully:

>I would like to think that there is something more I can do as
>a woman besides raising dharmically inclined sons (not
>children) as per the specific suggestions in response to my
>earlier question.

Firstly, we must realize that the cycle of births is not gender
specific. Nor is it caste specific.

Secondly, the dharmasastras prescribe an ideal situation. Reality
often falls short. If there are prescriptions for women, there
are also prescriptions for men. In modern times, when men do not
live up to these standards, it would be hypocritical to insist
upon them only for the women.

Third, if the goal is moksha, then the path of knowledge is open
to all, after a point. Let me give a very pragmatic answer, keeping
in mind that in the traditional perspective, the true seeker on the
path of knowledge is a sannyAsin.

Now, it is not easy to live the life of a sannyAsin. The one issue
on which most will falter is the vow of celibacy. It is not that an
abstention from sexual intercourse will provide deep knowledge.
However, the sexual urge is an indicator of the extent of the
dehAtmabuddhi. This is usually too strong, and unless a state of
adequate desirelessness is reached, it will trouble the person to
no end. Such a person is not ready to become a sannyAsin, and it
would be far better for him or her to lead life in society, instead
of renouncing it. At least as far as traditional Advaitins are
concerned, this is not a man vs. woman thing. If one talks to some
of the contemporary Sankaracharyas, they will gently nudge away
improperly qualified people from taking up sannyAsa. They won't
allow every disciple to become a sannyAsin. This holds true for
most male disciples too.

There is a reason women are discouraged from becoming sannyAsins
at a young age, whereas a few men are allowed to do so. The potential
results of not keeping up the vow of celibacy are more devastating
for a young woman than for a young man. There is indeed much more
for a woman to do, than to be with a husband and to raise sons.

Traditionally, after a woman reaches a certain age, the path of
renunciation is open. In fact, there is a powerful traditional view
that men can also renounce only at an advanced age. The vAnaprastha
state that the Sastras talk about involves both husband and wife
retiring away from society. This is the initial step towards full
sannyAsa.

Finally, all the above is in terms of generalities. A specific case
always has its own unique points, and is much better handled on an
individual basis. There are numerous cases where women have been
given mantropadesha, by some of the most conservative upholders of
the tradition. I would suggest that an earnest meeting with a well
qualified guru will yield ample satisfaction.

Best regards,
Vidyasankar

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 22:32:44 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>By ignorance, I mean avidyA. Only avidyA is percieved during deep >sleep.
>This avidyA prevents us from realizing the true Atman which is >most
>closely experienced during deep sleep.

I believe you, you say it is not ignorance, but avidya. I still have a
problem with this :-)

prajna was said to be the causal state from which everything is born, and
everything includes vizva, taijasa, vidya, avidya or whatever.

It was also said that, while a person is experincing prajna, one experiences
nothing other than non-duality. Those who say they can see real objects (or
dreams) in deep-sleep are telling lies, they were most probably having a
disturbed sleep.

The only difference between turIya and prajna is that in case of turIya it
is the absolute non-duality, but prajna is a state of non-duality which is
potentially a creator of duality. prajna is the cause whose effect is not
yet born. When it is not yet born where is avidya during prajna
(deep-sleep)?

savikalpa samAdhi: I like to learn from you or other knowledgeable list
members about it. My wild guess is it may be made up of 90% prajna, 8%
taijasa and 2% vizva. I may be wrong.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 21:04:25 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>If that is true, i.e. there are only three states, then what is the >state
>in which one is in when one has the experience of Savikalpa >SamAdhi? It
>cannot be any of the three, because ignorance alone is >percieved in deep
>sleep, so Savikalpa samAdhi cannot be compared with >it. Then again, one's
>ego (I-ness) remains i.e. I am having the >experience of samAdhi, so which
>state is that - we cannot say it is >the same state as that of a jivanmukta
>when all is perceived as >Brahman. Could you please elaborate from the
>Shruti.

Savikalpa samAdhi belongs to a different model of the universe consisting of
different samAdhis like saMprjnAta, asamprajnAta, savikalpa, nirvikalpa etc.
If we mix two different models it will multiply the total number of
elements and the subject expands. It will be a good excercise.

But inserting savikalpa samAdhi alone into mANDUkya's three/four element
model is not right. It is like adding Carbon dioxide to periodic table.

>ignorance alone is percieved in deep sleep

Now this is serious. I fully understand gItAchArya said that pramAda Alasya,
nidra, bhaya etc are tamoguNa, but it was in a different context. Excessive
or untimely nidra is tamoguNa, but nidra as such is not tamoguNa. It is
prajna, the causal state, creator, the letter M and so on.

People routinely interpret mANDUkya saying: Deep-sleep is ignorance, dreams
are silly and unreal, but only waking state gives us a chance to see the
real world and act in this world, so waking state is the highest state which
we must utilize properly to achieve non-duality.

I agree that waking state is where we can make serious efforts, as we can
literally do nothing in other states. But the above hierarchy is wrong.

vizva, the waking state is the lowest of the three states. taijasa, dream
state is higher and includes vizva as a special case. prajna, deep-sleep
state is the higest state and includes taijasa and vizva.

This is what I read from the book printed by R.K. Mission (I have no copy in
hand), or elsewhere. The above hierarchy alone is correct and any reversal
leads to (or is caused by) adhyAsa. We can discuss the implications if
necessary.

Meanwhile you can check some messages on this topic (waking, dream and
deep-sleep states) at VedicRitual yahoogroup.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:19:19 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Nanda Chandran wrote..
>I've not said anything different. Just that I'm viewing it from the
>subjective standpoint.

I understand you were answering a question which involved viewing from
objective or subjective view points. A four element model can be viewed from
a two element model to generate 4 X 2 = 8 elements. This way the subject
multiplies.

I was pointing to the original, just to make sure.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:47:21 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Smt Shuba-ji

There is no need to take the discussion to such negativity. The zAstras
assume the ideal situation of the presence a caring husband who follows
dharma.

In your case you say, you do not want to take up the path as prescribed, and
you still work in society just for your own subsistence, or you might decide
to adopt children or whatever. For people like you there is an alternative.
Br.U. 1.4.17 has a meditation for people who decide to be alone.

"The sacrificer is self, speech is the wife, eye is human wealth, ear is
divine wealth, prANa is the child".

This verse is enough for you to achieve whatever you want to achieve. You
need not study rest of the sAstras, it will be revealed to you.

This subject is not supposed to be challenged, but it is not as easy as it
looks.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:16:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Mon, 7 May 2001 22:32:44 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>>By ignorance, I mean avidyA. Only avidyA is percieved during deep >sleep.
>>This avidyA prevents us from realizing the true Atman which is >most
>>closely experienced during deep sleep.
>
>I believe you, you say it is not ignorance, but avidya. I still have a
>problem with this :-)
>
>prajna was said to be the causal state from which everything is born, and
>everything includes vizva, taijasa, vidya, avidya or whatever.
>

But the causal state of the jIva in the first place is avidyA is it not?
That there is a jIva in the first place that thinks itself different from
Atman is indicative that it is "enveloped" by avidyA, which is its causal
state. Unless I am forgetting, this is directly from Panchdashi by Swami
Vidyaranya. Perhaps Vidya, Anand, Jaldhar or other learned members ( :-) )
have a better answer.


>It was also said that, while a person is experincing prajna, one
experiences
>nothing other than non-duality.

But the notion coming out from deep sleep is "I knew nothing then" which is
non-knowledge even though duality is not percieved.

ashish

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:58:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Mon, 7 May 2001 15:29:50 -0400, Shuba <swamis at U...> wrote:

>Shri.Jaldhar-ji,
>
>>Our shastras are rational in the sense that given basic
>>assumptions, they reason and expand on them
>>logically. But they are not scientific or only
>>coincidentally so.
>
>And who makes those basic assumptions and what are _they_ based
>on? The environment at that point in time? In our current
>world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of you and me?
>What makes one set of assumptions superior to another?
>

Smt. Shuba-ji,

I am in no way attempting to answer the questions you have raised. Vidya
has already answered them suffeciently and better than most would. But I
came across the following on Swami Krishnananda's website. It deals with
Reason, as Jaldhar has also mentioned above. I hope you and others will
find it informative.

----begin
Swami Krishananda:

First of all, it has to be remembered that reason is not everything, and it
is futile to work up an apotheosis of reason. This itself is contrary to
reason, and it is a prejudiced faith of the human mind which makes it
imagine that reason is all. You ask, ‘On what is faith based?’, but I
ask, ‘On what is reason based?’ ‘Who told you that reason itself is
reasonable?’ Don't you think that this itself is a faith that you have
inherited due to your social circumstances which you yourself condemn on
another occasion? That the human mind unquestionably clings to the doctrine
of a reason for everything and does not want to accept anything which
cannot have a reason shows that the mind is prejudiced; and do you call
this rationality?

 Secondly, it is not true that everything in creation can be
explained by reason, and I do not believe that you will again subscribe to
the prejudice that the visible alone is real and there is nothing above
what the human mind can visualise. The culture of our land is not based
merely on reason, though it is not contrary to reason. The greatness of our
culture lies in a super-rational faith, - mark super-rational, - on which
even reason is based; because reason is an offshoot of experience, as
inference is based on perception. Our culture is primarily rooted in the
great gospel of unselfishness for which you want a reason now. Yes, there
is a reason, and this reason is our philosophy. This is our religion, this
our aim, and this the fond ideal of all humanity. Without going deep into
the reason behind things too much, it is not difficult for us to discover,
with even a little of common-sense, that we belong to a wider environment
of which we are integral parts, and we do not exhaust ourselves in the
shell of our personalities. Emphasise again, we belong to a wider
environment, we are constituents of this environment, and we cannot exist
if we are disloyal to the law of this environment to which we belong. To
cite an example, a limb of the body cannot exist if it wishes to revolt
against the law of the body taken as a whole, because the limb is an
integral part of the body. Now, unselfishness or selflessness, as you wish
to understand, is nothing but the way or the mode in which the part belongs
to the whole, by which it surrenders itself to the fulfilment of the law of
the whole, through which the lower is transfigured in the higher. Are you
satisfied that there is a reason in unselfishness? In an unselfish act we
do not do something unreasonable, but the only reasonable thing possible,
for unselfishness is the discovery of oneself in the larger whole. I
believe this is sufficient reason.

--end quote

ashish

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:01:23 -0400
Subject: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


This is forwarded with the permission of Smt. Savitri-ji.

Regards,
-Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)





---- Savithri Devaraj savdev at h... wrote ----


 Dear Shubaji,

>So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
>that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
>discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a physical
>form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is supposed
>to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
>concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
>its present context?
>
>let's ask does it prevent women from fulfilling their
>spiritual needs? I think the answer is it doesn't.
>
>Sorry, I beg to differ. It does not fulfill my spiritual needs
>as a woman, even if it fulfills that of every other woman on
>this planet. Why? I am intrinsically not attracted to the path
>of total submission and mindless surrender to the husband as
>prescribed in the Shastra's. That means I have ego left in me,
>no doubt, and thats something I need to rid myself of before I
>can progress spiritually.
>
> Please see:
> http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm
>
>The paramacharya equates surrendering to a husband with
>surrendering to a guru for different genders based on the Manu
>Smriti. Is it only me who sees a big distinction between a
>husband and a guru? Not every brahmin male qualifies as a guru
>at any level, but every brahmin male qualifies as somebody's
>husband at the most basic level! Women can live with a brahmin
>man and attain moksha by giving up their ego but the reverse is
>not true even though we believe in non-duality because ? What
>am I missing here?
>
>I am admittedly not good enough for the path of total
>surrender - maybe because I was not married off at 7 as
>recommended and have developed an ego now. But I am told I am
>fit to be a Brahman's wife, to be the mother of Brahman sons
>who can study the scriptures, _but_ personally, I am not
>qualified to study them and the only hope for moksha for me is
>to totally surrender to my husband.
>
This is not as terrible as some of the other laws in my opinion,
especially if a husband is puujaniiya.

Please don't be disheartened. And, please, please also don't
look to the list for ratification of your views. I can say, I
pretty much had the exactly same questions are you are bringing
up here a few years ago when I read the "Laws of Manu"
(Penquin classics in English) - 1994 to be precise. I did not
complete it, it disgusted me quite a bit. Needless to say, I
was very much dissatisfied with the dharma shaastras if this is
what they had to say.

Don't let others tell you that you don't have adhikaara for
brahmavidya or vedaabhyaasa because the Mana dharma shaastra
says so - your question to them should be what about the 90% of
the laws that applies to male brahmins that haven't had even
the slightest chance for adherence??

You know, it is the nature if human mind to find out the reason
for any given dos or donts. After thinking about this for a
while and bringing it up with several learned people, I
justified it within myself that this adhikaara that the women
don't have for the study of the vedas is for the karma or the
ritual part, not for the jnana or upasane part. This should
kind of make sense to everyone - the performer has to have
certain qualifications for performance of a prescribed action,
but who can really prevent you from manana and nidhidhyaasana?
Only a doctor can perform an operation, only an engineer can
construct a bridge, etc. If this is not the case, the results
will be catastrophic!! When the essense of the vedas is that
each one of us is the nondual substratum brahman, how could it
be that it prevents you from reflecting and understanding its
meaning?

If this is not the case, how do you explain the numerous
Rishikas in the Rig Veda?? To name a few, apAla, shraddha,
godha, amBR^INI vishvavArA, ghoshA, sUryA, ratri bhAradvAjI,
etc. What about the brahmavAdins maitreyI and gArgI??
If they did not study and understand the vedas, could they have
argued like they did??

True, not everyone is suited for this path, but our Rishis have
laid down the pre-requites for this course also - sadhana
chaatushtayaa. Even the pre-requisites for this pre-requisite
is quite clearly laid down in our own dear Bhagavadgeetha!! The
sadhanas or the different paths for the purification of the
mind and acquisition of vairaagya is quite clear in here.

When I used to stand in front of the lord and the vedas were
being recited in unison, knowingly or unknowingly I used to
recite parts of it that I knew just by merely hearing it over a
period of time. There is extreme bliss and harmony when I stand
there and recite what ever I know. If this is the case, I
decided why not learn these from a qualified Guru. In this
respect, I am totally blessed, I met no obstacles in this
endevour. We have quite a large Veda group here, and I am not
the only female. I was surprised to find a few other girls and
women had similar views as I did, and what more our Guruji
is so kind and encouraging to us.

There is a proverb in kannaDa, If God is willing, how can the
pujari hold back? If Saraswathi wants to dance on your
tongue, can anyone prevent Her? If you intensely desire for
some thing spiritual, my experience is that you will definitely
get it.

To borrow an analogy from Sri Satchidanandendra Saraswathi
Swamiji - It is true that not all people have the qualification
for being a theoritical physicist or a particle physicist, but
does that mean that all these people are banned from
experiencing everyday physics?? Even a child knows that
a thing that is thrown up will fall back to the earth due to
gravity. Similarly with the scriptures, each one takes away
what he/she is capable of absorbing.

To me, coming to the West and being far away from my roots and
spiritual heritage was a blessing in disguise, so also was the
reading of the Laws of Manu. An intense desire to get back to
my roots and true nature took a strong grip over me. Of course,
all this is His grace and nothing else.I always make atleast a
couple of hours in my busy schedule for dhyaana and scriptural
studies, and the satisfaction I get is immense. The best
thing about being on the spiritual path for me as a mother and
wife is to be able to mould my children and family towards
higher values and goals. In this, I can unabashedly say that a
father is definitely not as effective.

I know this is just one opinion from a list member, but
everything is subjective and up for grabs, it is up to you to
make anything out of it. I am sending this to your email, but
if you see it fit for the list, please go ahead and post it,
especially if some other silent female members can
benefit from it.

Savithri



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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:55:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


Namaste Shuba-ji and Savitri-ji,

I don't claim to speak on behalf of anyone on this list but these are just
my views. We are trying to get back to the ancient religion of our
ancestors. In so doing, we recognize 1. what that dharma was and 2. how is
it to be carried out so that the universal benefits from it, given as it is
that we are a part of the universal. To claim that there is any amount of
privelege associated with performing a particular karma is to be ignorant
of the true meaning of what the karma is for in the first place.

I don't know about others but there is enough proof, even today, to tell me
that the ways of our ancients were for the benefit of all for all times,
something that their true descendants, our Acharyas and Swamis, reiterate
day in and day out.

We have all gone astray - at least most of us on this list. If we are to
find a way back, what must guide us? Again the words of those who are the
spiritual Gurus of today come to mind.

Perhaps the first thing to recognize would be what is one's own dharma, and
on that realization, trying to be as faithful to it as possible. That,
according to Lord Krishna Himself, is enough, and crossing over to
another's dharma, is to be avoided at all costs.

On Tue, 8 May 2001 12:01:23 -0400, Shuba <swamis at U...> wrote:

>This is forwarded with the permission of Smt. Savitri-ji.
>
>Don't let others tell you that you don't have adhikaara for
>brahmavidya or vedaabhyaasa because the Mana dharma shaastra
>says so - your question to them should be what about the 90% of
>the laws that applies to male brahmins that haven't had even
>the slightest chance for adherence??
>

As Vidya has already pointed out, Brahmavidya is available to any aspirant
who has the four pre-requisites.

The only question I have is whether other scriptures (PurANa-s, RamayaNa
etc) within our Shastras prove insuffecient for women that the need of
Vedaabhyaasa is felt.

If those that have the duty (Brahmin males) of learning and teaching the
Veda don't perform it adequately, by that alone can we arrive at the
conclusion that others should take over that responsibility? This question
has been answered by Jagadguru Chandrashekarendra Saraswati Swamiji:

http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part19/chap3.htm


ashish

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>From "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>
Subject: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:30:57
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "nanda chandran" <vpcnk at H...>


>So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
>that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
>discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a physical
>form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is supposed
>to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
>concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
>its present context?

Spirituality isn't totally divorced from the worldly. You are in
this world and it is from here that you're trying to elevate
yourself to something higher. If you were already in Advaita you
wouldn't need instruction, would you? In samsaara if you aspire for
Advaita, it is with your mind and body that you'll be engaging in the
effort. So the capability of your physical and mental faculties and your
moral maturity has to be taken into consideration.

First you've to understand that the shaastras are generic rules.
They represent the collective wisdom of the race. They try to
set down rules for a society based on experiences/observations
from the past. But again there can be new experiences which
contradict the old. So shaastras aren't intended to handle
exceptions. The solution for this is provided by Manu himself
who gives elasticity to the rules when he says the dharma is also
to be learnt from what the wise men of the age teach. Conscience
is also considered to be one of the foundations on which right or
wrong can be decided. So there's nothing iron clad about the dharma
and it can be quite flexible depending upon the context.

According to the shaastras both women and shudras are forbidden to
study the Vedas. This by itself is not too wrong in my mind
fundamentally because women are naturally more inclined towards
material desires than men and the shudras generally lacked
education and moral maturity in traditional India. To teach
Upanishads to those who lack the requisite mental/moral maturity
can result in more harm than good. Vidya has also made valid points
regarding the problems of women taking up samnyaasam.

Immediately we need not take it that all women and shudras
were looked down upon and hence prevented from learning
the shruti. If we see history there have been saints from both the
sections of the soceity and they were regarded so by the orthodoxy
too. Yaagnavalkya, the greatest of the Upanishadic sages, himself
teaches brahma vidhya to his wife Maitreyi.

So if you posses the necessary mental/moral maturity and if you're
truly spiritual all you need to do is approach a guru who will
provide you with the necessary guidance.

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:18:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Shri. Nanda-ji,

Thank you for your response.

>if you're truly spiritual all you need to do is approach a
>guru who will provide you with the necessary guidance.

Yes, I know. I already have one. I have not let anything stop
me so far in my quest for knowledge and am not about to start
now. This is not what I have an issue with.

>
> This by itself is not too wrong in my mind
> fundamentally because women are naturally more inclined
> towards material desires than men

This kind of statement is what I do have an issue with. Its an
incorrect idea but its not my place to correct it. By the same
token, I shall also turn a blind eye to similar statements that
turn up on this list periodically. As Smt. Savithri-ji pointed
out, I should not be seeking any ratification from this list in
the first place. C'est la vie.

Regards,
Shuba.




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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:25:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Shri. Ashish-ji,

Thank you for your quote. I completely agree.

This however, still completely side-steps my original point
about Manu Smriti and your comment about raising my son's to
preserve dharma. But, as I mentioned before, c'est la vie.

I will cease using up precious bandwidth on this forum at this
point, on this issue.

Thank you,
-Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)






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---- On , Ashish Chandra (ramkisno at H...) wrote:

> On Mon, 7 May 2001 15:29:50 -0400, Shuba <swamis at U...>
wrote:
>
> >Shri.Jaldhar-ji,
> >
> >>Our shastras are rational in the sense that given basic
> >>assumptions, they reason and expand on them
> >>logically. But they are not scientific or only
> >>coincidentally so.
> >
> >And who makes those basic assumptions and what are _they_
based
> >on? The environment at that point in time? In our current
> >world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of you and
me?
> >What makes one set of assumptions superior to another?
> >
>
> Smt. Shuba-ji,
>
> I am in no way attempting to answer the questions you have
raised. Vidya
> has already answered them suffeciently and better than most
would. But I
> came across the following on Swami Krishnananda's website. It
deals with
> Reason, as Jaldhar has also mentioned above. I hope you and
others will
> find it informative.
>
> ----begin
> Swami Krishananda:
>
> First of all, it has to be remembered that reason is not
everything, and
> it
> is futile to work up an apotheosis of reason. This itself is
contrary to
> reason, and it is a prejudiced faith of the human mind which
makes it
> imagine that reason is all. You ask, ‘On what is faith
based?’, but I
> ask, ‘On what is reason based?’ ‘Who told you that reason
itself is
> reasonable?’ Don't you think that this itself is a faith that
you have
> inherited due to your social circumstances which you yourself
condemn on
> another occasion? That the human mind unquestionably clings
to the
> doctrine
> of a reason for everything and does not want to accept
anything which
> cannot have a reason shows that the mind is prejudiced; and
do you call
> this rationality?
>
> Secondly, it is not true that everything in creation
can be
> explained by reason, and I do not believe that you will again
subscribe
> to
> the prejudice that the visible alone is real and there is
nothing above
> what the human mind can visualise. The culture of our land is
not based
> merely on reason, though it is not contrary to reason. The
greatness of
> our
> culture lies in a super-rational faith, - mark super-
rational, - on
> which
> even reason is based; because reason is an offshoot of
experience, as
> inference is based on perception. Our culture is primarily
rooted in the
> great gospel of unselfishness for which you want a reason
now. Yes,
> there
> is a reason, and this reason is our philosophy. This is our
religion,
> this
> our aim, and this the fond ideal of all humanity. Without
going deep
> into
> the reason behind things too much, it is not difficult for us
to
> discover,
> with even a little of common-sense, that we belong to a wider
> environment
> of which we are integral parts, and we do not exhaust
ourselves in the
> shell of our personalities. Emphasise again, we belong to a
wider
> environment, we are constituents of this environment, and we
cannot
> exist
> if we are disloyal to the law of this environment to which we
belong. To
> cite an example, a limb of the body cannot exist if it wishes
to revolt
> against the law of the body taken as a whole, because the
limb is an
> integral part of the body. Now, unselfishness or
selflessness, as you
> wish
> to understand, is nothing but the way or the mode in which
the part
> belongs
> to the whole, by which it surrenders itself to the fulfilment
of the law
> of
> the whole, through which the lower is transfigured in the
higher. Are
> you
> satisfied that there is a reason in unselfishness? In an
unselfish act
> we
> do not do something unreasonable, but the only reasonable
thing
> possible,
> for unselfishness is the discovery of oneself in the larger
whole. I
> believe this is sufficient reason.
>
> --end quote
>
> ashish
>
>
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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:17:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


One of the issue to raised in this thread was that there are many many
compromises made in adherence to dharma when it comes to men
(specifically male brahmaNa-s) and why raise objection quoting dharma
shAstra-s when it comes to women.

I agree with this issue completely. But I feel that compromises that
are made with respect to men happened at personal level and over a time
has become a pratice of the society. Still, they have not gone into to
textual form like amendments. Original shAstra-s are still there to
point out these are compromises.

Same thing is happening with respect to women now. Some of them are
learning veda-s and are initiated to gAyatrI etc. I think nobody can
stop this trend. It is better not get agitated on these issues, and try
to resolve them at personal level. We can not expect texts like manu
smRti to be amended and modified. It does seem like out dated and male
-oriented. And probably one can question its sanatAna nature. But how
can we ephemerals decide on what is eternal or not.

At personal level, I am FOR women learning veda-s and doing things like
sandhyavandana etc. That (I believe) will motivate men to do the same.
Again at personal level, to me true dharma is constantly remembering
God and true achAra is to seeing God in everyone( do unto your
neighbors what you will do unto to God/guru). These atleast I can
strive to follow (even though now I think of everything but God, and
have behaved quite meanly to some in the past), the rest is clearly out
my scope



=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:00:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


One question we have to ask ourselves in such contradictions constantly is:

That which we are arguing/fighting for, is it really needed at this point of
time in our spiritual growth. Investigating and knowing is one thing and
fighting for rights is another.

Now, person X is not allowed to do agnihotra because X is Sudra or a woman or
any other entity forbidden from doing agnihotra. Now is X fighting to get his
right to do agnihotra because X is espousing a social cause or is X really
hampered in spiritual growth because of the taboo? In my opinion X can always
try to find why something is allowed or not, but should fight for it only if X
will really practice what X is fighting for.

If after all the social upheaval and bad mouthing manusmriti and removing it
from the society if X is not going to do anything about the newly available
"freedom", it is just a waste. (In the Indian context, especially TN) At one
time brahmaNas were accused of hoarding all Vedas to themselves and not
allowing access for anybody else. Now Vedas are available all over the world.
Apart from cursory interest how many of those who fought have really cared to
understand it?

Let us fight for a cause only if we really need it and if after winning the
right will follow ardently what is being given. Otherwise there are many other
things to do, equally good spiritually.

Until we understand the words of the Sruti through the help of competent Guru
there will be lot of contradictions. If manusmriti is banned, then people will
fight for banning rAmAyaNa because Sri rAm sent His wife to the forest. (Last
year, a woman engaged me in a duel on this topic). Then somebody will want to
change Gita because in Chap 9, Krishna equates a woman to a Sudra (some
interpretations go that way). TulsidAs-ji is also supposed to have said that -
a drum, a woman and something else needs to be beaten....<something like that>.
 The list is endless.

One very good example of how focussed one should be in search of God, is
Paramahansa Yogananda. His Guru Sri Yukteswar-ji wanted to teach him Vedic
Astrology. He said he did not want to learn as he found no use for it in his
search for God.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

PS: In the above, I am not saying that one should not find answers to one's
questions. Just that one need not get side tracked, disturbed from the main
goal - finding God. Only those that hinder knowing God is worth fighting for.
Others can be treated lightly and left alone if not acceptable.


--- "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...> wrote:
> One of the issue to raised in this thread was that there are many many
> compromises made in adherence to dharma when it comes to men
> (specifically male brahmaNa-s) and why raise objection quoting dharma
> shAstra-s when it comes to women.
>
> I agree with this issue completely. But I feel that compromises that
> are made with respect to men happened at personal level and over a time
> has become a pratice of the society. Still, they have not gone into to
> textual form like amendments. Original shAstra-s are still there to
> point out these are compromises.
>
> Same thing is happening with respect to women now. Some of them are
> learning veda-s and are initiated to gAyatrI etc. I think nobody can
> stop this trend. It is better not get agitated on these issues, and try
> to resolve them at personal level. We can not expect texts like manu
> smRti to be amended and modified. It does seem like out dated and male
> -oriented. And probably one can question its sanatAna nature. But how
> can we ephemerals decide on what is eternal or not.
>
> At personal level, I am FOR women learning veda-s and doing things like
> sandhyavandana etc. That (I believe) will motivate men to do the same.
> Again at personal level, to me true dharma is constantly remembering
> God and true achAra is to seeing God in everyone( do unto your
> neighbors what you will do unto to God/guru). These atleast I can
> strive to follow (even though now I think of everything but God, and
> have behaved quite meanly to some in the past), the rest is clearly out
> my scope
>
>
>
> =====
> ambaaL daasan
>
> Ravi
>
> sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI
>
> http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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>
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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:24:05 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


----Original Message Follows----
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
 TulsidAs-ji is also supposed to have said that -
a drum, a woman and something else needs to be beaten....<something like
that>.

dhol gamvaar sudra pasu naari |
ye sab taadan key adhikari ||

VA
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>From "S. Veeraghanta" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 16:38:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. Veeraghanta" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


It is with great disappointment and disillusion that I am responding to
this thread. Normally I read the postings and attempt to elevate my
mundane existence, but lately, I have been very disappointed - for the
following reasons.

If the advaita philosphy is about the Brahman, and if the very process of a
definition of the Brahman limits the Brahman, how does gender matter at
THIS LEVEL of discourse? The limitless, nameless is also genderless, and if
that is the final pursuit, then my biological make-up should not
matter. Because if it does, then the cosmos limits its experience to half
its population!

I have a problem with the posting I reproduce below: for this
assumption: that women desire worldly things more than the men, and
somehow biology determines this behavior! And the second assumption that
men, [due to their biology] are somehow more detached than women. In this
day and age, I would like to believe that both the men and the women have
the same propensities for attachment and detachment. And the reason I
believe that is because, both men and women have a consciousness that lets
them experience the lures of attachments and the bliss of detachments.

So, it seems very self-defeating to believe that my mother, because she is
a woman is incapable of experiencing bliss, or even seek such a bliss for
herself!!

S V


At 01:51 PM 5/8/01 -0400, you wrote:
>>So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
>>that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
>>discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a physical
>>form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is supposed
>>to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
>>concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
>>its present context?
>
>Spirituality isn't totally divorced from the worldly. You are in
>this world and it is from here that you're trying to elevate
>yourself to something higher. If you were already in Advaita you
>wouldn't need instruction, would you? In samsaara if you aspire for
>Advaita, it is with your mind and body that you'll be engaging in the
>effort. So the capability of your physical and mental faculties and your
>moral maturity has to be taken into consideration.
>
>First you've to understand that the shaastras are generic rules.
>They represent the collective wisdom of the race. They try to
>set down rules for a society based on experiences/observations
>from the past. But again there can be new experiences which
>contradict the old. So shaastras aren't intended to handle
>exceptions. The solution for this is provided by Manu himself
>who gives elasticity to the rules when he says the dharma is also
>to be learnt from what the wise men of the age teach. Conscience
>is also considered to be one of the foundations on which right or
>wrong can be decided. So there's nothing iron clad about the dharma
>and it can be quite flexible depending upon the context.
>
>According to the shaastras both women and shudras are forbidden to
>study the Vedas. This by itself is not too wrong in my mind
>fundamentally because women are naturally more inclined towards
>material desires than men and the shudras generally lacked
>education and moral maturity in traditional India. To teach
>Upanishads to those who lack the requisite mental/moral maturity
>can result in more harm than good. Vidya has also made valid points
>regarding the problems of women taking up samnyaasam.
>
>Immediately we need not take it that all women and shudras
>were looked down upon and hence prevented from learning
>the shruti. If we see history there have been saints from both the
>sections of the soceity and they were regarded so by the orthodoxy
>too. Yaagnavalkya, the greatest of the Upanishadic sages, himself
>teaches brahma vidhya to his wife Maitreyi.
>
>So if you posses the necessary mental/moral maturity and if you're
>truly spiritual all you need to do is approach a guru who will
>provide you with the necessary guidance.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
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Dr. S. V. Veeraghanta
Rural Sociology
University of Kentucky
500, Garrigus Building
Lexington, KY 40546-0215
Ph: 859-257-3404
Fax: 859-257-4354

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:28:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001 20:24:05 -0000, Vishal Agarwal
<vishalagarwal at H...> wrote:

>----Original Message Follows----
>From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
> TulsidAs-ji is also supposed to have said that -
>a drum, a woman and something else needs to be beaten....<something like
>that>.
>
>dhol gamvaar sudra pasu naari |
>ye sab taadan key adhikari ||
 ^^^^^^
>

Vishal,

I think it is
dhor ga.nvAra sUdra pasu nAri |
sakala tADana ke adhikArI ||

ashish

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>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:36:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


Namaste :
--- "ShrI S. V. Subrahmanian" wrote:
> (In the Indian context, especially TN) At one
> time brahmaNas were accused of hoarding all Vedas to
> themselves and not
> allowing access for anybody else. Now Vedas are
> available all over the world.
> Apart from cursory interest how many of those who fought
> have really cared to
> understand it?
If you are referring to the Dravidian movement, I would
like to clarify that the dravidian movement was not about
equal rights for all to study the vedas. Far from it.
The dravidianists wanted to make sure that NO ONE studied
the vedas. Seems to me like the Tamil Brahmins have
agreed.

 But, in a wider sense, why did such marked animosity come
about? Why would a society which until 200 years ago
respected and revered brahmins, hate them so much now?
It is not enough to just blame it on the muslims, british,
nAstikas etc. We would have to search in to the root cause
of this problem.

 This has been addressed by kAnchi peryivA. Starting in
the late 19th century, the traditional brAhmaNa male gave
up on the ways of his ancestors and moved to the cities to
pursue careers in law, education etc. He rapidly moved up
the social ladder, amassed wealth and continued to lord his
superiority over other castes when he had long given up on
the same dharma that had elevated him in the first place!
So, on what basis can he claim superiority?

 I fully agree with ShrI Nanda Chandran's statement that
the brahminical ideal espouses poverty ( atleast not
pursuit
of wealth ). This may have been true of S. Indian brahmins
up to the 19th century. But, the social disruption caused
by the british, industrialization etc. put an end to that.

 In N. India, which had already undergone such disruption
due to muslim rule, the decline of the brAhmaNa is more
drastic. We have kashmiri brahmins prostrating to the
Mughals to be court poets ( in persian ). We have
Chitpavan brahmins in Maharashtra who usurped power after
Shivaji and ruled as Peshwas. We have punjabi brahmins who
converted to Sikhism, became generals of the Sikh army,
only
to betray the sikhs to the british. We have UP/Bihar
brahmins who joined the British Indian Army in droves
( they were derisively called "pandoos" ). We have kerala
brahmins who became landlords of temple lands and used that
to abuse society ( they had extramarital relations with
lower caste women but would not allow a lower caste male
within 100 paces of themselves ). The list is endless.
None of these "brahmins" followed their dharma and I am
sure
 all of them flaunted their superiority.

When the brahmins don't respect the dharma, why do they
expect others to respect them? Seems to me that the modern
brahmin is more drawn towards the trappings of money and
power than the vedas. As of today, the sacred thread is
just a fashion statement.

-Vivek.

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>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


--- ShrI Vishal Agarwal wrote:
> dhol gamvaar sudra pasu naari |
> ye sab taadan key adhikari ||

Hello Vishal-ji :

 I am just curious to know if the meaning is literally
that all of the above should be beaten! Could you kindly
provide a bit more context for this verse, such as when,
where it occurs and what is the meaning with reference to
the larger work.

Thank you.

-Vivek.

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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:44:47 -0000
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From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I have heard yet another variant :-)

dhor gamvaar pashu aru naari
ye chahun taadan key adhikari ||

I do not have the text at hand to verify which is correct. Maybe you are
correct (I have forgotten the cadence of the Chaupai chhanda).

Regards

VA


----Original Message Follows----
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
<ADVAITA-L at b...>
To: ADVAITA-L at L...
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:28:30 -0400

On Tue, 8 May 2001 20:24:05 -0000, Vishal Agarwal
<vishalagarwal at H...> wrote:

 >----Original Message Follows----
 >From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
 > TulsidAs-ji is also supposed to have said that -
 >a drum, a woman and something else needs to be beaten....<something like
 >that>.
 >
 >dhol gamvaar sudra pasu naari |
 >ye sab taadan key adhikari ||
 ^^^^^^
 >

Vishal,

I think it is
dhor ga.nvAra sUdra pasu nAri |
sakala tADana ke adhikArI ||

ashish

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:20:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:44:47 -0000, Vishal Agarwal
<vishalagarwal at H...> wrote:

>I have heard yet another variant :-)
>
>dhor gamvaar pashu aru naari
>ye chahun taadan key adhikari ||
>
>I do not have the text at hand to verify which is correct. Maybe you are
>correct (I have forgotten the cadence of the Chaupai chhanda).
>

Its from Sunderkaand, after Doha 58.

prabhu bhala kiinha mohi sikha diinhii |
marajaadaa puni tumharii kiinhii ||
Dhola ga.Nvaara suudra pasu naarii |
sakala taa.Danaa ke adhikaarii || 3 ||

ashish

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:21:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


Perhaps, in this discussion we should consider what many purANas
have said about Kali Yuga. I am not advocating a fatalistic
approach where one gives in to the feeling "Oh! All this is due
to the evil influence of Kali Yuga. Dharma will decline very
badly and nothing can be done about it." Rather, one should
consider Kali Yuga as establishing a natural tendency among people.
The natural tendency in this Yuga is to go against dharma, whether
it is by giving up one's own dharma or by accepting an alien or
another dharma. We see brAhmaNas giving up their dharma and study
with great intensity antiVedic or nonVedic doctrines such as Buddhism,
Jainism, Christianity, etc. And those who historically never studied the
sanAtana dharma, including the Vedas, become very interested in it.
Everything appears topsy-turvy. This natural tendency among people
to go against dharma will be there. The wise ones are those who
recognize this tendency and conquer it, not yield to it.

Even in day to day life we can see some examples of natural tendencies
at work. For example, when it is very hot and humid, there is a natural
tendency for people to become irritable and lose their temper
frequently. When a lot of people are crowded in a small place and
are asked to wait for a long time, again there is a natural tendency
for people to get irritated quickly.

It is important to understand that life as we live it today is
so complex, chaotic, and even bizarre that it is extremely difficult to
come up with solutions to problems posed with reference to a period when
life was much more orderly and disciplined. India, like many other
countries of the world, has become a big melting pot of all kinds of
cultures, actions, and thoughts. How is it possible to give
solutions that satisfy those who hold this tangled web of views and
opinions?

Perhaps there is some truth in the prophesies of the purANas about
Kali Yuga. They also point out that evil influences of this age
can be overcome if only one makes a little effort to follow his/her
dharma. It is not a resignation to fatalism that is called for but
a brave effort to fight it.

Anand

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:01:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 7 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> And who makes those basic assumptions and what are _they_ based
> on?

Basic assumptions are by definition not based on anything. Can there be a
logical system that does not contain assumptions i.e. is entirely
self-consistent? Perhaps surprisingly, the logical answer is no. I can't
go into all the details as to why at the moment but I recommend, "Godel,
Escher, and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter for a
good laymens introduction.

> The environment at that point in time? In our current
> world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of you and me?
> What makes one set of assumptions superior to another?
>

For instance the normal or "Euclidian" geometry we use is based on the
assumption that two parallel lines never intersect. It turns out even if
we don't make this assumption we can still come up with valid systems of
geometry. But they turn out to be useful only in certain obscure areas of
physics. Euclidian geometry is more practical for the everyday range of
geometrical problems.

In the case of Dharma, India has given birth to many, many systems. Yet
only one has stood the test of time. Others had their moment in the sun
then burned out for whatever reason, yet others never got beyond the
theoretical stage in the first place.

>
> > Sanatana Dharma is not egalitarian. But why should it be?
>
> I am sorry, but how can it NOT be? Its not at all obvious to me
> how it can NOT be egalitarian.
>
> Please correct my understanding here.
>
> 1. The basic premise of Advaita is that there is no duality.

Correct.

> 2. Sanatana dharma is a dharma which if properly followed, will
> lead one on the path toward realization of that non-duality.
>

Also correct. But if there is no duality then why is it necessary for
there to be a path towards it?

Because here and now there is a tremendous amount of duality.

> So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
> that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
> discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a physical
> form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is supposed
> to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
> concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
> its present context?
>

By the use of the word "progress" you imply this is a business as yet
unfinished. In that case mundane matters are still a concern.


> Sorry, I beg to differ. It does not fulfill my spiritual needs as a
> woman, even if it fulfills that of every other woman on this planet.
> Why? I am intrinsically not attracted to the path of total submission
> and mindless surrender to the husband as prescribed in the Shastra's.
> That means I have ego left in me, no doubt, and thats something I need
> to rid myself of before I can progress spiritually.
>

So then while you say you are interested in egalitarianism, you actually
want something that is tailormade to your needs? In "Animal Farm", George
Orwell satirized this kind of view with the line "All pigs are equal, but
some are more equal than others."

There are three basic combinations of relationship of the individual and
society we can envision:

What the individual wants is supreme and society has no say in it. This
has the benefit of not requiring any grand religion or philosophy. But
selfishness is in the long-term a losing proposition. Because you want to
be selfish but so does everyone else. For instance operating the server
this list runs on costs me time and money. Selfishly I should not bother.
Then a lot of people (including myself) would lose a chance to gain
knowledge.

So then should the needs of the indvidual be subsumed to those of the
group? Well the sociopolitical systems that have tried that (usually it
should be noted in the name of egalitarianism) have turned out to be
nightmarish hellholes rather than "peoples' paradises." Because there is
a diversity amongst people. Forcing them into one mold makes them
unhappy.

What most cultures try and do is to balance the rights of individuals and
the obligations of society. In a democracy there may be an
archconservative who grumbles at the thought of paying taxes to support
the homeless who are probably all idlers and drug addicts anyway. And an
ultraleftist might not like the idea of his taxes going towards nuclear
missiles and battleships. So they vote and try and influence what the
budget is spent on. But when the decision is made they don't deduct the
things that don't suit their fancy. They realize that what they lose by
giving up some financial decisions is more offset by what they gain as
citizens.

Our Dharma works the same way. It is noteworthy that yoga is cognate to
the English word yoke. It derives from yuj -- to bind. To practice yoga
means to give up some of your personal freedom. It makes demands on you
that maybe sometimes you feel are burdensome. (Believe me, the grass is
not necessarily greener on the other side.) But the benefits you get by
doing so are worth the delayed gratification.


> Please see:
> http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm
>
> The paramacharya equates surrendering to a husband with
> surrendering to a guru for different genders based on the Manu
> Smriti. Is it only me who sees a big distinction between a
> husband and a guru? Not every brahmin male qualifies as a guru
> at any level, but every brahmin male qualifies as somebody's
> husband at the most basic level! Women can live with a brahmin
> man and attain moksha by giving up their ego but the reverse is
> not true even though we believe in non-duality because ? What
> am I missing here?
>
> I am admittedly not good enough for the path of total
> surrender - maybe because I was not married off at 7 as
> recommended and have developed an ego now. But I am told I am
> fit to be a Brahman's wife, to be the mother of Brahman sons
> who can study the scriptures, _but_ personally, I am not
> qualified to study them and the only hope for moksha for me is
> to totally surrender to my husband.
>

Have you thought about what it means to "surrender"? One of the most
irksome things about this type of debate (and I've been in several) is how
airy-fairy and theoretical they get. There are millions of Dharmic women
out there. Why not try actually asking one or more how they put this
shastric injunction into practice in their lives? I can tell you in my
case nobody in my family male or female is shy about expressing their
opinions. Perhaps that's why feminist arguments don't move me that much.
The idea of women being shrinking wallflowers doesn't match my experience.

> What if I don't want a husband??! Am I condemned to a fate of
 ^^^^
> never achieveing moksha no matter what my level of mumukshutvam

As Arjuna might have said, "what if I don't want to fight the Kauravas.
Am I condemned to a fate of never acheiving moksha?"

If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of mumukshatvam is 0.

> is? No marriage, no moksha seems more of a blackmail than any
> degree of justice to me.

And you think there is any less pressure for boys? The reason I'm not a
sannyasi right now is because I am aware that to get married and have
a family is what was expected of me. A jaundiced eye might see this as
"blackmail" but another way to see it is fulfillment of the debt you owe
to your ancestors to carry on their culture for another generation. After
all if your parents hadn't gotten married and had you, you wouldn't be in
a position to be choosing whether to get married or not would you? I'm
happy to be a married man even though it has placed some restrictions on
what I can do. I think there is more to life than just chasing desires.

Also bear in mind that it is only in the past 50 years or so that the
option of being single your entire life has been viable for men or women.
And even now it is not clear it is a good thing in the long run. Because
of this "I don't have to get married" mentality, the population of most
industrialized countries is declining. In fact in some European countries
the birth rate has fallen below the replacement level and the population
is actually shrinking. The US is the only country bucking this trend and
that is because it is the only one allowing large-scale immigration. If
you factor that out it has the same problem. The consequences of this
will be a rapidly aging
   population and an erosion of the tax base that
makes government services (which support the single lifestyle) possible.
In 300 years time, the extreme selfishness of today may be seen as just a
historical blip.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:03:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> Please don't be disheartened. And, please, please also don't
> look to the list for ratification of your views. I can say, I
> pretty much had the exactly same questions are you are bringing
> up here a few years ago when I read the "Laws of Manu"
> (Penquin classics in English) - 1994 to be precise. I did not
> complete it, it disgusted me quite a bit. Needless to say, I
> was very much dissatisfied with the dharma shaastras if this is
> what they had to say.
>
> Don't let others tell you that you don't have adhikaara for
> brahmavidya or vedaabhyaasa because the Mana dharma shaastra
> says so - your question to them should be what about the 90% of
> the laws that applies to male brahmins that haven't had even
> the slightest chance for adherence??
>

What about them? How does ignoring the remaining 10% increase the chances
any?

> You know, it is the nature if human mind to find out the reason
> for any given dos or donts. After thinking about this for a
> while and bringing it up with several learned people, I
> justified it within myself that this adhikaara that the women
> don't have for the study of the vedas is for the karma or the
> ritual part, not for the jnana or upasane part.

Which if you remember back is what I said in one of the first messages in
the thread. I don't know why this discussion has suddenly jumped to
Moksha. We started out talking about Dharma. These are two seperate
purusharthas with two seperate goals and thus two seperate sets of
assumptions.

I would like to clarify one thing though, the adhikara is for jnana
through Gita, Puranas, etc. Not for the jnanakanda of the Shruti itself.
See Brahmasutra 1.3.34-38 which though specifically about Shudras also
applies to women.

> This should
> kind of make sense to everyone - the performer has to have
> certain qualifications for performance of a prescribed action,
> but who can really prevent you from manana and nidhidhyaasana?
> Only a doctor can perform an operation, only an engineer can
> construct a bridge, etc. If this is not the case, the results
> will be catastrophic!! When the essense of the vedas is that
> each one of us is the nondual substratum brahman, how could it
> be that it prevents you from reflecting and understanding its
> meaning?
>

> If this is not the case, how do you explain the numerous
> Rishikas in the Rig Veda?? To name a few, apAla, shraddha,
> godha, amBR^INI vishvavArA, ghoshA, sUryA, ratri bhAradvAjI,
> etc.

This has come up in the list before if you recall. Being a Rshi means
being a mantradrashta. It implies nothing about the moral or spiritual
condition of the seer. Just as we say "Newtons law of gravity" because
Newton was the first to formulate it. But had there been no person called
Isaac Newton, would gravity not exist? In the same some various mantras
are attached to various names. Sometimes we know a little of the person
behind the name, sometimes we don't. It's all irrelevant. Had those
rishis never existed, it wouldn't make an iota of difference.

> What about the brahmavAdins maitreyI and gArgI??
> If they did not study and understand the vedas, could they have
> argued like they did??
>

Maitreyi for example was taught by her husband Yajnavalkya before he took
sannyasa. This same Yajnavalkya has authored a Smrti with exactly the
same type of contents as the Manusmrti. When he says something you agree
with he is an authority and when he says something you don't like suddenly
he's not?

> True, not everyone is suited for this path, but our Rishis have
> laid down the pre-requites for this course also - sadhana
> chaatushtayaa. Even the pre-requisites for this pre-requisite
> is quite clearly laid down in our own dear Bhagavadgeetha!! The
> sadhanas or the different paths for the purification of the
> mind and acquisition of vairaagya is quite clear in here.
>

Exactly. So why do anadhikaris have to study the Vedas if they can get
the same effect from studying the Gita?

> When I used to stand in front of the lord and the vedas were
> being recited in unison, knowingly or unknowingly I used to
> recite parts of it that I knew just by merely hearing it over a
> period of time. There is extreme bliss and harmony when I stand
> there and recite what ever I know. If this is the case, I
> decided why not learn these from a qualified Guru. In this
> respect, I am totally blessed, I met no obstacles in this
> endevour. We have quite a large Veda group here, and I am not
> the only female. I was surprised to find a few other girls and
> women had similar views as I did, and what more our Guruji
> is so kind and encouraging to us.
>

So the qualification for learning becomes "if it feels good"? What
happens if someone decides it doesn't feel as good as watching MTV? Then
they should start reciting TV Guide? This may seem far-fetched to you
because you have good intentions and a Dharmic background you can draw
upon. But as time goes on and generations pass, that background erodes.
If you replace a sense of duty with a sense of self-gratification you end
up no better than the materialists. Eventually religion will be just
a thin wallpaper over naked narcissism. Don't believe me? Look at
history.

> There is a proverb in kannaDa, If God is willing, how can the
> pujari hold back? If Saraswathi wants to dance on your
> tongue, can anyone prevent Her? If you intensely desire for
> some thing spiritual, my experience is that you will definitely
> get it.
>

And tomorrow when you're bored with that experience you can go shopping
for a new one. You end up like the new age people vapidly
flitting from one "experience" to another like the consumers they really
are.

> To borrow an analogy from Sri Satchidanandendra Saraswathi
> Swamiji - It is true that not all people have the qualification
> for being a theoritical physicist or a particle physicist, but
> does that mean that all these people are banned from
> experiencing everyday physics?? Even a child knows that
> a thing that is thrown up will fall back to the earth due to
> gravity. Similarly with the scriptures, each one takes away
> what he/she is capable of absorbing.
>

Another thing that bothers me about this thread is why when we are talking
of "scripture" only the Vedas or Manusmrti are being mentioned? Women
have their own spiritual practices which have been passed down from time
immemorial. Do they count for nothing? For instance Sunday, Nrsimha
chaturdashi, my mother and wife did a particular thing (Sorry I'm not yet
at liberty to say what it was and why just yet..) My mother performed the
vidhi, my father wasn't even there and I watched from the couch. It was
not Vedic (In fact my mother took pains to point that out) but did that
mean anyone took it any less seriously?

This view of "scriptures" you're suggesting in fact says that the measure
of a woman is in how much she copies a man. It ignores the traditions
women have passed down from generation to generation just because they
were maybe not written down or maybe not in Sanskrit. This to me is more
anti-woman than anything the astikas can come up with.

> To me, coming to the West and being far away from my roots and
> spiritual heritage was a blessing in disguise, so also was the
> reading of the Laws of Manu. An intense desire to get back to
> my roots and true nature took a strong grip over me. Of course,
> all this is His grace and nothing else.I always make atleast a
> couple of hours in my busy schedule for dhyaana and scriptural
> studies, and the satisfaction I get is immense. The best
> thing about being on the spiritual path for me as a mother and
> wife is to be able to mould my children and family towards
> higher values and goals. In this, I can unabashedly say that a
> father is definitely not as effective.

Unabashedly or not, doesn't that bother you? I'm curious as to how given
the sentiments expressed in this thread, such a comment can just pass by.

>
> I know this is just one opinion from a list member, but
> everything is subjective and up for grabs, it is up to you to
> make anything out of it. I am sending this to your email, but
> if you see it fit for the list, please go ahead and post it,
> especially if some other silent female members can
> benefit from it.

I don't see why silent female members (or male ones for that matter) can't
speak up
   on matters that concern them. When you initially demured from
doing the Vishnusahasranama postings didn't Ravi and I encourage you? It
is great that women are involved in Dharma. We want to encourage that.
But the best way we can help is by telling you the truth. My purpose in
giving the answers I have given in this thread is not to make anyone happy
or unhappy but to tell the truth. Because I don't see how lies help you
or me or anyone. If some members are silent only because they are afraid
of what they might hear then that's just cowardice and doesn't deserve any
sympathy from anyone.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:07:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> I should not be seeking any ratification from this list in
> the first place.
>

Is that what you were looking for? A rubber-stamp? I'm curious as to
what happens if this new guru says something you don't like. Then is he
out too? Or was he only chosen on the condition he would flatter you?

I guess this is the Kaliyuga when the masters become the servants!


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:17:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001, S. Veeraghanta wrote:

> If the advaita philosphy is about the Brahman, and if the very process of a
> definition of the Brahman limits the Brahman, how does gender matter at
> THIS LEVEL of discourse?

At that level there is no discourse. We are only talking about the levels
below it.

> The limitless, nameless is also genderless, and if
> that is the final pursuit, then my biological make-up should not
> matter. Because if it does, then the cosmos limits its experience to half
> its population!
>

Yes and that is why we consider moksha a seperate purushartha to Dharma.
This thread started out only talking about Dharma but somehow confusion
has set in along the way.

> I have a problem with the posting I reproduce below: for this
> assumption: that women desire worldly things more than the men, and
> somehow biology determines this behavior!

Yes I wish people wouldn't use "essential nature" arguments. It is not
necessary to prove our point and it's a fact that only some behavior is
biological, most is cultural. As a sociologist I'm sure you've studied
that in detail.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:23:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Shri. Jaldhar-ji,

Thanks for your response. You are ofcourse entitled to your
opinion.

A quote came to mind:

"Times will change and even reverse many of your present
opinions. Refrain, therefore, awhile from setting yourself up
as a judge of the highest matters. - Plato"

You will probably turn right around and say it applies best to
me. Have it as you will.

I confess to having no taste for arguments that attack the
person instead of the idea, nor do I care to be patronized.

Thank you,
Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)






________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
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---- On , Jaldhar H. Vyas (jaldhar at b...) wrote:

> On Mon, 7 May 2001, Shuba wrote:
>
> > And who makes those basic assumptions and what are _they_
based
> > on?
>
> Basic assumptions are by definition not based on anything.
Can there be
> a
> logical system that does not contain assumptions i.e. is
entirely
> self-consistent? Perhaps surprisingly, the logical answer is
no. I
> can't
> go into all the details as to why at the moment but I
recommend, "Godel,
> Escher, and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas
Hofstadter for a
> good laymens introduction.
>
> > The environment at that point in time? In our current
> > world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of you and
me?
> > What makes one set of assumptions superior to another?
> >
>
> For instance the normal or "Euclidian" geometry we use is
based on the
> assumption that two parallel lines never intersect. It turns
out even
> if
> we don't make this assumption we can still come up with valid
systems of
> geometry. But they turn out to be useful only in certain
obscure areas
> of
> physics. Euclidian geometry is more practical for the
everyday range of
> geometrical problems.
>
> In the case of Dharma, India has given birth to many, many
systems. Yet
> only one has stood the test of time. Others had their moment
in the sun
> then burned out for whatever reason, yet others never got
beyond the
> theoretical stage in the first place.
>
> >
> > > Sanatana Dharma is not egalitarian. But why should it be?
> >
> > I am sorry, but how can it NOT be? Its not at all obvious
to me
> > how it can NOT be egalitarian.
> >
> > Please correct my understanding here.
> >
> > 1. The basic premise of Advaita is that there is no duality.
>
> Correct.
>
> > 2. Sanatana dharma is a dharma which if properly followed,
will
> > lead one on the path toward realization of that non-duality.
> >
>
> Also correct. But if there is no duality then why is it
necessary for
> there to be a path towards it?
>
> Because here and now there is a tremendous amount of duality.
>
> > So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
> > that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
> > discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a
physical
> > form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is
supposed
> > to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
> > concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
> > its present context?
> >
>
> By the use of the word "progress" you imply this is a
business as yet
> unfinished. In that case mundane matters are still a concern.
>
>
> > Sorry, I beg to differ. It does not fulfill my spiritual
needs as a
> > woman, even if it fulfills that of every other woman on
this planet.
> > Why? I am intrinsically not attracted to the path of total
submission
> > and mindless surrender to the husband as prescribed in the
Shastra's.
> > That means I have ego left in me, no doubt, and thats
something I need
> > to rid myself of before I can progress spiritually.
> >
>
> So then while you say you are interested in egalitarianism,
you actually
> want something that is tailormade to your needs? In "Animal
Farm",
> George
> Orwell satirized this kind of view with the line "All pigs
are equal,
> but
> some are more equal than others."
>
> There are three basic combinations of relationship of the
individual
> and
> society we can envision:
>
> What the individual wants is supreme and society has no say
in it. This
> has the benefit of not requiring any grand religion or
philosophy. But
> selfishness is in the long-term a losing proposition.
Because you want
> to
> be selfish but so does everyone else. For instance operating
the server
> this list runs on costs me time and money. Selfishly I
should not
> bother.
> Then a lot of people (including myself) would lose a chance
to gain
> knowledge.
>
> So then should the needs of the indvidual be subsumed to
those of the
> group? Well the sociopolitical systems that have tried that
(usually it
> should be noted in the name of egalitarianism) have turned
out to be
> nightmarish hellholes rather than "peoples' paradises."
Because there
> is
> a diversity amongst people. Forcing them into one mold makes
them
> unhappy.
>
> What most cultures try and do is to balance the rights of
individuals
> and
> the obligations of society. In a democracy there may be an
> archconservative who grumbles at the thought of paying taxes
to support
> the homeless who are probably all idlers and drug addicts
anyway. And
> an
> ultraleftist might not like the idea of his taxes going
towards nuclear
> missiles and battleships. So they vote and try and influence
what the
> budget is spent on. But when the decision is made they don't
deduct the
> things that don't suit their fancy. They realize that what
they lose by
> giving up some financial decisions is more offset by what
they gain as
> citizens.
>
> Our Dharma works the same way. It is noteworthy that yoga is
cognate to
> the English word yoke. It derives from yuj -- to bind. To
practice
> yoga
> means to give up some of your personal freedom. It makes
demands on you
> that maybe sometimes you feel are burdensome. (Believe me,
the grass is
> not necessarily greener on the other side.) But the benefits
you get by
> doing so are worth the delayed gratification.
>
>
> > Please see:
> > http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm
> >
> > The paramacharya equates surrendering to a husband with
> > surrendering to a guru for different genders based on the
Manu
> > Smriti. Is it only me who sees a big distinction between a
> > husband and a guru? Not every brahmin male qualifies as a
guru
> > at any level, but every brahmin male qualifies as somebody's
> > husband at the most basic level! Women can live with a
brahmin
> > man and attain moksha by giving up their ego but the
reverse is
> > not true even though we believe in non-duality because ?
What
> > am I missing here?
> >
> > I am admittedly not good enough for the path of total
> > surrender - maybe because I was not married off at 7 as
> > recommended and have developed an ego now. But I am told I
am
> > fit to be a Brahman's wife, to be the mother of Brahman sons
> > who can study the scriptures, _but_ personally, I am not
> > qualified to study them and the only hope for moksha for me
is
> > to totally surrender to my husband.
> >
>
> Have you thought about what it means to "surrender"? One of
the most
> irksome things about this type of debate (and I've been in
several) is
> how
> airy-fairy and theoretical they get. There are millions of
Dharmic
> women
> out there. Why not try actually asking one or more how they
put this
> shastric injunction into practice in their lives? I can tell
you in my
> case nobody in my family male or female is shy about
expressing their
> opinions. Perhaps that's why feminist arguments don't move
me that
> much.
> The idea of women being shrinking wallflowers doesn't match my
> experience.
>
> > What if I don't want a husband??! Am I condemned to a fate
of
> ^^^^
> > never achieveing moksha no matter what my
   level of
mumukshutvam
>
> As Arjuna might have said, "what if I don't want to fight the
Kauravas.
> Am I condemned to a fate of never acheiving moksha?"
>
> If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of
mumukshatvam is 0.
>
> > is? No marriage, no moksha seems more of a blackmail than
any
> > degree of justice to me.
>
> And you think there is any less pressure for boys? The
reason I'm not a
> sannyasi right now is because I am aware that to get married
and have
> a family is what was expected of me. A jaundiced eye might
see this as
> "blackmail" but another way to see it is fulfillment of the
debt you owe
> to your ancestors to carry on their culture for another
generation.
> After
> all if your parents hadn't gotten married and had you, you
wouldn't be
> in
> a position to be choosing whether to get married or not would
you? I'm
> happy to be a married man even though it has placed some
restrictions on
> what I can do. I think there is more to life than just
chasing desires.
>
> Also bear in mind that it is only in the past 50 years or so
that the
> option of being single your entire life has been viable for
men or
> women.
> And even now it is not clear it is a good thing in the long
run.
> Because
> of this "I don't have to get married" mentality, the
population of most
> industrialized countries is declining. In fact in some
European
> countries
> the birth rate has fallen below the replacement level and the
population
> is actually shrinking. The US is the only country bucking
this trend
> and
> that is because it is the only one allowing large-scale
immigration. If
> you factor that out it has the same problem. The
consequences of this
> will be a rapidly aging population and an erosion of the tax
base that
> makes government services (which support the single
lifestyle) possible.
> In 300 years time, the extreme selfishness of today may be
seen as just
> a
> historical blip.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
>
>
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================
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>
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================
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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001, Ravisankar S. Mayavaram wrote:

> At personal level, I am FOR women learning veda-s and doing things like
> sandhyavandana etc.
> That (I believe) will motivate men to do the same.

I'm afraid history says you're wrong.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:31:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Brahman & Atman
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Sat, 5 May 2001, naresh cuntoor wrote:

> Namaskara, I agree with the sentiment expressed a couple of days ago
> (by Sri Jaldhar Vyas, I think..but I could be wrong about the
> reference) that reconciling today's scientific principles with the
> Vedas may be an unnecessary task.

When religion misuses science I think it just ends up losing the respect
of people. I know one of the main reasons I prefer traditional varieties
of Hinduism is that modern ones just seemed ludicrous with their
"scientific" explanations. Had that been my only exposure to Dharma I
would probably be an atheist right now.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:34:06 -0400
Subject: Was: Decaying hindu varna dharma, Now: On arguments
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


"Truth often suffers more by the heat of its defenders than the
arguments of its opposers".

Enough said.

Regards,
Shuba.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)




________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:39:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> Shri. Jaldhar-ji,
>
> Thanks for your response. You are ofcourse entitled to your
> opinion.
>
> A quote came to mind:
>
> "Times will change and even reverse many of your present
> opinions. Refrain, therefore, awhile from setting yourself up
> as a judge of the highest matters. - Plato"
>
> You will probably turn right around and say it applies best to
> me. Have it as you will.
>

I would like to note that my opinion hasn't changed for about 3 millenia.

> I confess to having no taste for arguments that attack the
> person instead of the idea, nor do I care to be patronized.
>

So any implication you could possibly be wrong is a personal attack? How
very sad.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:41:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Was: Decaying hindu varna dharma, Now: On arguments
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> "Truth often suffers more by the heat of its defenders than the
> arguments of its opposers".
>

"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From Sankaran Panchapagesan <panchap at i...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:51:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sankaran Panchapagesan <panchap at i...>


Hi.
 I do not believe myself to be of any great maturity in these matters,
but thought would add my 2c worth.

I personally consider a statement like "women are naturally more
materially inclined than men" to be "messed", to put it crudely. I think
Nanda Chandran who made it should clarify or give some argument to support
it. No offense specifically meant towards Nanda Chandran, but that
statement seems quite unscientific.

Ms.Shuba, I think what Jaldhar attacked were your beliefs and opinions. He
attacked them bluntly, but he did it logically and from his own viewpoint.
You may disagree with his viewpoint, but I feel you should reflect on his
questions and give a response.

Regards,
Ganesh.


On Tue, 8 May 2001, Shuba wrote:

> Shri. Jaldhar-ji,
>
> Thanks for your response. You are ofcourse entitled to your
> opinion.


>
> A quote came to mind:
>
> "Times will change and even reverse many of your present
> opinions. Refrain, therefore, awhile from setting yourself up
> as a judge of the highest matters. - Plato"
>
> You will probably turn right around and say it applies best to
> me. Have it as you will.
>
> I confess to having no taste for arguments that attack the
> person instead of the idea, nor do I care to be patronized.
>
> Thank you,
> Shuba
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
> people and the affection of children; To earn the
> appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
> friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
> leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
> breathed easier because you have lived.
>
> This is to have succeeded.
>
> -Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________
> Get your own "800" number
> Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
> http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
>
>
> ---- On , Jaldhar H. Vyas (jaldhar at b...) wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 7 May 2001, Shuba wrote:
> >
> > > And who makes those basic assumptions and what are _they_
> based
> > > on?
> >
> > Basic assumptions are by definition not based on anything.
> Can there be
> > a
> > logical system that does not contain assumptions i.e. is
> entirely
> > self-consistent? Perhaps surprisingly, the logical answer is
> no. I
> > can't
> > go into all the details as to why at the moment but I
> recommend, "Godel,
> > Escher, and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas
> Hofstadter for a
> > good laymens introduction.
> >
> > > The environment at that point in time? In our current
> > > world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of you and
> me?
> > > What makes one set of assumptions superior to another?
> > >
> >
> > For instance the normal or "Euclidian" geometry we use is
> based on the
> > assumption that two parallel lines never intersect. It turns
> out even
> > if
> > we don't make this assumption we can still come up with valid
> systems of
> > geometry. But they turn out to be useful only in certain
> obscure areas
> > of
> > physics. Euclidian geometry is more practical for the
> everyday range of
> > geometrical problems.
> >
> > In the case of Dharma, India has given birth to many, many
> systems. Yet
> > only one has stood the test of time. Others had their moment
> in the sun
> > then burned out for whatever reason, yet others never got
> beyond the
> > theoretical stage in the first place.
> >
> > >
> > > > Sanatana Dharma is not egalitarian. But why should it be?
> > >
> > > I am sorry, but how can it NOT be? Its not at all obvious
> to me
> > > how it can NOT be egalitarian.
> > >
> > > Please correct my understanding here.
> > >
> > > 1. The basic premise of Advaita is that there is no duality.
> >
> > Correct.
> >
> > > 2. Sanatana dharma is a dharma which if properly followed,
> will
> > > lead one on the path toward realization of that non-duality.
> > >
> >
> > Also correct. But if there is no duality then why is it
> necessary for
> > there to be a path towards it?
> >
> > Because here and now there is a tremendous amount of duality.
> >
> > > So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but the path
> > > that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
> > > discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a
> physical
> > > form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is
> supposed
> > > to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane and more
> > > concerned about my spiritual progress. How does this work in
> > > its present context?
> > >
> >
> > By the use of the word "progress" you imply this is a
> business as yet
> > unfinished. In that case mundane matters are still a concern.
> >
> >
> > > Sorry, I beg to differ. It does not fulfill my spiritual
> needs as a
> > > woman, even if it fulfills that of every other woman on
> this planet.
> > > Why? I am intrinsically not attracted to the path of total
> submission
> > > and mindless surrender to the husband as prescribed in the
> Shastra's.
> > > That means I have ego left in me, no doubt, and thats
> something I need
> > > to rid myself of before I can progress spiritually.
> > >
> >
> > So then while you say you are interested in egalitarianism,
> you actually
> > want something that is tailormade to your needs? In "Animal
> Farm",
> > George
> > Orwell satirized this kind of view with the line "All pigs
> are equal,
> > but
> > some are more equal than others."
> >
> > There are three basic combinations of relationship of the
> individual
> > and
> > society we can envision:
> >
> > What the individual wants is supreme and society has no say
> in it. This
> > has the benefit of not requiring any grand religion or
> philosophy. But
> > selfishness is in the long-term a losing proposition.
> Because you want
> > to
> > be selfish but so does everyone else. For instance operating
> the server
> > this list runs on costs me time and money. Selfishly I
> should not
> > bother.
> > Then a lot of people (including myself) would lose a chance
> to gain
> > knowledge.
> >
> > So then should the needs of the indvidual be subsumed to
> those of the
> > group? Well the sociopolitical systems that have tried that
> (usually it
> > should be noted in the name of egalitarianism) have turned
> out to be
> > nightmarish hellholes rather than "peoples' paradises."
> Because there
> > is
> > a diversity amongst people. Forcing them into one mold makes
> them
> > unhappy.
> >
> > What most cultures try and do is to balance the rights of
> individuals
> > and
> > the obligations of society. In a democracy there may be an
> > archconservative who grumbles at the thought of paying taxes
> to support
> > the homeless who are probably all idlers and drug addicts
> anyway. And
> > an
> > ultraleftist might not like the idea of his taxes going
> towards nuclear
> > missiles and battleships. So they vote and try and influence
> what the
> > budget is spent on. But when the decision is made they don't
> deduct the
> > things that don't suit their fancy. They realize that what
> they lose by
> > giving up some financial decisions is more offset by what
> they gain as
> > citizens.
> >
> > Our Dharma works the same way. It is noteworthy that yoga is
> cognate to
> > the English word yoke. It derives from yuj -- to bind. To
> practice
> > yoga
> > means to give up some of your personal freedom. It makes
> demands on you
> > that maybe sometimes you feel are burdensome. (Believe me,
> the grass is
> > not necessarily greener on the other side.) But the benefits
> you get by
> > doing so are worth the delayed gratification.
> >
> >
> > > Please see:
> > > http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm
> > >
> > > The paramacharya equates surrendering to a husband with
> > > surrendering to a guru for different genders based on the
> Manu
> > > Smriti. Is it only me who sees a big distinction between a
> > > husband and a guru? Not every brahmin male qualifies as a
> guru
> > > at any level, but every brahmin male qualifies as somebody's
> > > husband at the most basic level! Women can live with a
> brahmin
> > > man and attain moksha by giving up their ego but the
> reverse is
> > > not true even though we believe in non-duality because ?
> What
> > > am I missing here?
> > >
> > > I am
   admittedly not good enough for the path of total
> > > surrender - maybe because I was not married off at 7 as
> > > recommended and have developed an ego now. But I am told I
> am
> > > fit to be a Brahman's wife, to be the mother of Brahman sons
> > > who can study the scriptures, _but_ personally, I am not
> > > qualified to study them and the only hope for moksha for me
> is
> > > to totally surrender to my husband.
> > >
> >
> > Have you thought about what it means to "surrender"? One of
> the most
> > irksome things about this type of debate (and I've been in
> several) is
> > how
> > airy-fairy and theoretical they get. There are millions of
> Dharmic
> > women
> > out there. Why not try actually asking one or more how they
> put this
> > shastric injunction into practice in their lives? I can tell
> you in my
> > case nobody in my family male or female is shy about
> expressing their
> > opinions. Perhaps that's why feminist arguments don't move
> me that
> > much.
> > The idea of women being shrinking wallflowers doesn't match my
> > experience.
> >
> > > What if I don't want a husband??! Am I condemned to a fate
> of
> > ^^^^
> > > never achieveing moksha no matter what my level of
> mumukshutvam
> >
> > As Arjuna might have said, "what if I don't want to fight the
> Kauravas.
> > Am I condemned to a fate of never acheiving moksha?"
> >
> > If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of
> mumukshatvam is 0.
> >
> > > is? No marriage, no moksha seems more of a blackmail than
> any
> > > degree of justice to me.
> >
> > And you think there is any less pressure for boys? The
> reason I'm not a
> > sannyasi right now is because I am aware that to get married
> and have
> > a family is what was expected of me. A jaundiced eye might
> see this as
> > "blackmail" but another way to see it is fulfillment of the
> debt you owe
> > to your ancestors to carry on their culture for another
> generation.
> > After
> > all if your parents hadn't gotten married and had you, you
> wouldn't be
> > in
> > a position to be choosing whether to get married or not would
> you? I'm
> > happy to be a married man even though it has placed some
> restrictions on
> > what I can do. I think there is more to life than just
> chasing desires.
> >
> > Also bear in mind that it is only in the past 50 years or so
> that the
> > option of being single your entire life has been viable for
> men or
> > women.
> > And even now it is not clear it is a good thing in the long
> run.
> > Because
> > of this "I don't have to get married" mentality, the
> population of most
> > industrialized countries is declining. In fact in some
> European
> > countries
> > the birth rate has fallen below the replacement level and the
> population
> > is actually shrinking. The US is the only country bucking
> this trend
> > and
> > that is because it is the only one allowing large-scale
> immigration. If
> > you factor that out it has the same problem. The
> consequences of this
> > will be a rapidly aging population and an erosion of the tax
> base that
> > makes government services (which support the single
> lifestyle) possible.
> > In 300 years time, the extreme selfishness of today may be
> seen as just
> > a
> > historical blip.
> >
> > --
> > Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
> >
> >
> ================================================================
> ================
> > "bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam"
> >
> > To unsubscribe from ADVAITA-L please send an e-mail to
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> > body of the message containing SIGNOFF ADVAITA-L
> > If you need any other help please contact listmaster at a...
> vedanta.org
> >
> ================================================================
> ================
> >
> >
>
> ================================================================================
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>
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 20:10:23 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>>prajna was said to be the causal state from which everything is born,
>> >>and everything includes vizva, taijasa, vidya, avidya or whatever.

>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>But the causal state of the jIva in the first place is avidyA is it >not?

Wait, you are going too fast. We will talk about jIva later. If you say that
the causal state (and consequently the creative capacity) of this prajna is
due to avidya, then where do you place vidya? Vidya is supposed to be higher
than avidya; then how did brahman forget its vidya and get into this avidya?
Or do you say that vidya is lower than avidya, and meant for a person under
avidya to overcome his/her avidya; like people often say, we use jnAna to
get out of mAya, as if mAya is greater than jnAna? We can place vidya
somewhere, but where do we place jnAna? This is going no where. :-)

Also we saw that Ch.U.VI.2.3 says : That (Existence) saw, "I shall become
many. I shall be born.". So it is clear that Existence, having taken the
form of saguNa brahman, knowingly and willingly created created all this,
and not due to avidya. avidya comes much later down the hierarchy. :-)

The process of how prajna creates a full blown taijasa/vizva can be inferred
from other parts of scriptures, e.g., creation of virAt (puruSa sUkta),
creation of jIvas (jAtavedas) and so on. I am not too clear on this process,
and I do indulge in speculations (like you do), and most of them generally
end up being wrong. Let us keep trying.

>That there is a jIva in the first place that thinks itself different >from
>Atman is indicative that it is "enveloped" by avidyA, which is >its causal
>state. Unless I am forgetting, this is directly from >Panchdashi by Swami
>Vidyaranya.

This is a perfect teaching, and a different story of creation altogether.
But using to explain mANDUkya's prajna is questionable.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...> (by way of Shuba swamis at u...)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 00:23:57 GMT
Subject: In response to Shri.Ganesh.
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...> (by way of Shuba swamis at u...)


Shri.Ganesh-ji,

> He attacked them bluntly, but he did it logically and from
>his own viewpoint.

Bluntness I have no issue with.

But the post is sprinkled liberally with the following types of
statements:

" Why not try actually asking one or more how they put this
 shastric injunction into practice in their lives? "

The above statement is what I would call patronizing.

" Perhaps that's why feminist arguments don't move me that
much."
And who was making a feminist argument?! If I ask about the
egalitarian nature of Sanatana dharma it somehow gets me
labelled a feminist?! Thats not a personal attack?

"If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of
mumukshatvam is 0."

THIS is EXACTLY what I meant by attacking me instead of my POV.
I will be happy to hear that from my guru, but not from any
random person in cyber-space whose only exposure to me is via
this mailing list!

" A jaundiced eye might see this as "blackmail" "

And how does this not count as attacking me? I am at a loss
here, and I would be happy to hear your (Ganesh's) explanation.

>After all if your parents hadn't gotten married and had you,
>you wouldn't be in a position to be choosing whether to get
>married or not would youu?

If this is not the dictionary definition of patronizing, what
is? The last time I checked, I did not invite Shri. Jaldhar-ji
to comment on the reason for my existence or a diagnosis of
what ails me. This is about as personal as it gets, don't you
think?

Regards,
Shuba



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)




________________________________________________
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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 00:42:45 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thanks for the correction
Vishal


----Original Message Follows----
From: Ashish Chandra
Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
To: ADVAITA-L at L...
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:20:42 -0400
On Tue, 8 May 2001 21:44:47 -0000, Vishal Agarwal
wrote:
>I have heard yet another variant :-)
>
>dhor gamvaar pashu aru naari ye chahun taadan key adhikari ||
>
>I do not have the text at hand to verify which is correct. Maybe you are
>correct (I have forgotten the cadence of the Chaupai chhanda).
>
Its from Sunderkaand, after Doha 58.
prabhu bhala kiinha mohi sikha diinhii |
marajaadaa puni tumharii kiinhii ||
Dhola ga.Nvaara suudra pasu naarii |
sakala taa.Danaa ke adhikaarii || 3 ||
ashish
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>From kartik at K...
Subject: Re: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 21:51:44 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH
GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH
OM NAMAH SIVAYA
OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA

Blessed Self,
Sri Shubaji,
You do need any validation from this list.
Your beliefs are correct and indeed laudable.
Sometimes the "majority" is silent because they have in the
past tried to "express" their views but have met hard,
obstinate and irrelevant arguments. Most rather stay away
from that but they see your strength, truth and character.
You have established valid points, your veiws are genuine
and sincere.
You have acknowledged that you are an aspirant loooking for
answers, in all your posts you have only come across as a
sincere seeker.
It is noteworthy that Sri Sant Tulsidas, Sri Sankaracharya
etc are quoted extensively, but only in a manner to justify
illogical arguments.
I repeat you do not need any validation of your views from
this list. This is my opinion.
Pranam
OM


> Hi.
> I do not believe myself to be of any great maturity in
these matters,
> but thought would add my 2c worth.
>
> I personally consider a statement like "women are
naturally more
> materially inclined than men" to be "messed", to put it
crudely. I think
> Nanda Chandran who made it should clarify or give some
argument to support
> it. No offense specifically meant towards Nanda Chandran,
but that
> statement seems quite unscientific.
>
> Ms.Shuba, I think what Jaldhar attacked were your beliefs
and opinions. He
> attacked them bluntly, but he did it logically and from
his own viewpoint.
> You may disagree with his viewpoint, but I feel you
should reflect on his
> questions and give a response.
>
> Regards,
> Ganesh.
>
>
> On Tue, 8 May 2001, Shuba wrote:
>
> > Shri. Jaldhar-ji,
> >
> > Thanks for your response. You are ofcourse entitled to
your
> > opinion.
>
>
> >
> > A quote came to mind:
> >
> > "Times will change and even reverse many of your present
> > opinions. Refrain, therefore, awhile from setting
yourself up
> > as a judge of the highest matters. - Plato"
> >
> > You will probably turn right around and say it applies
best to
> > me. Have it as you will.
> >
> > I confess to having no taste for arguments that attack
the
> > person instead of the idea, nor do I care to be
patronized.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Shuba
> >
> >
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
> > To laugh often and much; To win the respect of
intelligent
> > people and the affection of children; To earn the
> > appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal
of false
> > friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in
others; To
> > leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
> > breathed easier because you have lived.
> >
> > This is to have succeeded.
> >
> > -Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > Get your own "800" number
> > Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
> > http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
> >
> >
> > ---- On , Jaldhar H. Vyas (jaldhar at b...)
wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 7 May 2001, Shuba wrote:
> > >
> > > > And who makes those basic assumptions and what are
_they_
> > based
> > > > on?
> > >
> > > Basic assumptions are by definition not based on
anything.
> > Can there be
> > > a
> > > logical system that does not contain assumptions i.e.
is
> > entirely
> > > self-consistent? Perhaps surprisingly, the logical
answer is
> > no. I
> > > can't
> > > go into all the details as to why at the moment but I
> > recommend, "Godel,
> > > Escher, and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas
> > Hofstadter for a
> > > good laymens introduction.
> > >
> > > > The environment at that point in time? In our
current
> > > > world, dont we say to "assume" is to make an ass of
you and
> > me?
> > > > What makes one set of assumptions superior to
another?
> > > >
> > >
> > > For instance the normal or "Euclidian" geometry we
use is
> > based on the
> > > assumption that two parallel lines never intersect.
It turns
> > out even
> > > if
> > > we don't make this assumption we can still come up
with valid
> > systems of
> > > geometry. But they turn out to be useful only in
certain
> > obscure areas
> > > of
> > > physics. Euclidian geometry is more practical for the
> > everyday range of
> > > geometrical problems.
> > >
> > > In the case of Dharma, India has given birth to many,
many
> > systems. Yet
> > > only one has stood the test of time. Others had
their moment
> > in the sun
> > > then burned out for whatever reason, yet others never
got
> > beyond the
> > > theoretical stage in the first place.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Sanatana Dharma is not egalitarian. But why
should it be?
> > > >
> > > > I am sorry, but how can it NOT be? Its not at all
obvious
> > to me
> > > > how it can NOT be egalitarian.
> > > >
> > > > Please correct my understanding here.
> > > >
> > > > 1. The basic premise of Advaita is that there is no
duality.
> > >
> > > Correct.
> > >
> > > > 2. Sanatana dharma is a dharma which if properly
followed,
> > will
> > > > lead one on the path toward realization of that non-
duality.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Also correct. But if there is no duality then why is
it
> > necessary for
> > > there to be a path towards it?
> > >
> > > Because here and now there is a tremendous amount of
duality.
> > >
> > > > So, my final goal is to understand non-duality but
the path
> > > > that leads me there is not EVEN egalitarian? It will
> > > > discriminate on the basis of gender of all things, a
> > physical
> > > > form of my mortal existence? I thought the dharma is
> > supposed
> > > > to teach me to be un-concerned with matters mundane
and more
> > > > concerned about my spiritual progress. How does
this work in
> > > > its present context?
> > > >
> > >
> > > By the use of the word "progress" you imply this is a
> > business as yet
> > > unfinished. In that case mundane matters are still a
concern.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Sorry, I beg to differ. It does not fulfill my
spiritual
> > needs as a
> > > > woman, even if it fulfills that of every other
woman on
> > this planet.
> > > > Why? I am intrinsically not attracted to the path
of total
> > submission
> > > > and mindless surrender to the husband as prescribed
in the
> > Shastra's.
> > > > That means I have ego left in me, no doubt, and
thats
> > something I need
> > > > to rid myself of before I can progress spiritually.
> > > >
> > >
> > > So then while you say you are interested in
egalitarianism,
> > you actually
> > > want something that is tailormade to your needs?
In "Animal
> > Farm",
> > > George
> > > Orwell satirized this kind of view with the line "All
pigs
> > are equal,
> > > but
> > > some are more equal than others."
> > >
> > > There are three basic combinations of relationship
of the
> > individual
> > > and
> > > society we can envision:
> > >
> > > What the individual wants is supreme and society has
no say
> > in it. This
> > > has the benefit of not requiring any grand religion or
> > philosophy. But
> > > selfishness is in the long-term a losing proposition.
> > Because you want
> > > to
> > > be selfish but so does everyone else. For instance
operating
> > the server
> > > this list runs on costs me time and money. Selfishly
I
> > should not
> > > bother.
> > > Then a lot of people (including myself) would lose a
chance
> > to gain
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > So then should the needs of the indvidual be subsumed
to
> > those of the
> > > group? Well the sociopolitical systems that have
tried that
> > (usually it
> > > should be noted in the name of egalitarianism) have
turned
> > out to be
> > > nightmarish hellholes rather than "peoples'
paradises."
> > Because there
> > > is
> > > a diversity amongst people. Forcing them into one
mold makes
> > them
> > > unhappy.
> > >
> > > What most cultures try and do is to balance the
rights of
> > individuals
> > > and
> > > the obligations of society. In a democracy there may
be an
> > > archconservative who grumbles at the thought of
paying taxes
> > to support
> > > the homeless who are probably all idlers and drug
addicts
> > anyway. And
> > > an
> > > ultraleftist might not like the idea of his taxes
going
> > towards nuclear
> > > missiles and battleships. So they vote and try and
influence
> > what the
> > > budget is spent on. But when the decision is made
they don't
> > deduct the
> > > things that don't suit their
   fancy. They realize
that what
> > they lose by
> > > giving up some financial decisions is more offset by
what
> > they gain as
> > > citizens.
> > >
> > > Our Dharma works the same way. It is noteworthy that
yoga is
> > cognate to
> > > the English word yoke. It derives from yuj -- to
bind. To
> > practice
> > > yoga
> > > means to give up some of your personal freedom. It
makes
> > demands on you
> > > that maybe sometimes you feel are burdensome.
(Believe me,
> > the grass is
> > > not necessarily greener on the other side.) But the
benefits
> > you get by
> > > doing so are worth the delayed gratification.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Please see:
> > > > http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part18/chap2.htm
> > > >
> > > > The paramacharya equates surrendering to a husband
with
> > > > surrendering to a guru for different genders based
on the
> > Manu
> > > > Smriti. Is it only me who sees a big distinction
between a
> > > > husband and a guru? Not every brahmin male
qualifies as a
> > guru
> > > > at any level, but every brahmin male qualifies as
somebody's
> > > > husband at the most basic level! Women can live
with a
> > brahmin
> > > > man and attain moksha by giving up their ego but the
> > reverse is
> > > > not true even though we believe in non-duality
because ?
> > What
> > > > am I missing here?
> > > >
> > > > I am admittedly not good enough for the path of
total
> > > > surrender - maybe because I was not married off at
7 as
> > > > recommended and have developed an ego now. But I am
told I
> > am
> > > > fit to be a Brahman's wife, to be the mother of
Brahman sons
> > > > who can study the scriptures, _but_ personally, I
am not
> > > > qualified to study them and the only hope for
moksha for me
> > is
> > > > to totally surrender to my husband.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Have you thought about what it means to "surrender"?
One of
> > the most
> > > irksome things about this type of debate (and I've
been in
> > several) is
> > > how
> > > airy-fairy and theoretical they get. There are
millions of
> > Dharmic
> > > women
> > > out there. Why not try actually asking one or more
how they
> > put this
> > > shastric injunction into practice in their lives? I
can tell
> > you in my
> > > case nobody in my family male or female is shy about
> > expressing their
> > > opinions. Perhaps that's why feminist arguments
don't move
> > me that
> > > much.
> > > The idea of women being shrinking wallflowers doesn't
match my
> > > experience.
> > >
> > > > What if I don't want a husband??! Am I condemned to
a fate
> > of
> > > ^^^^
> > > > never achieveing moksha no matter what my level of
> > mumukshutvam
> > >
> > > As Arjuna might have said, "what if I don't want to
fight the
> > Kauravas.
> > > Am I condemned to a fate of never acheiving moksha?"
> > >
> > > If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of
> > mumukshatvam is 0.
> > >
> > > > is? No marriage, no moksha seems more of a
blackmail than
> > any
> > > > degree of justice to me.
> > >
> > > And you think there is any less pressure for boys?
The
> > reason I'm not a
> > > sannyasi right now is because I am aware that to get
married
> > and have
> > > a family is what was expected of me. A jaundiced eye
might
> > see this as
> > > "blackmail" but another way to see it is fulfillment
of the
> > debt you owe
> > > to your ancestors to carry on their culture for
another
> > generation.
> > > After
> > > all if your parents hadn't gotten married and had
you, you
> > wouldn't be
> > > in
> > > a position to be choosing whether to get married or
not would
> > you? I'm
> > > happy to be a married man even though it has placed
some
> > restrictions on
> > > what I can do. I think there is more to life than
just
> > chasing desires.
> > >
> > > Also bear in mind that it is only in the past 50
years or so
> > that the
> > > option of being single your entire life has been
viable for
> > men or
> > > women.
> > > And even now it is not clear it is a good thing in
the long
> > run.
> > > Because
> > > of this "I don't have to get married" mentality, the
> > population of most
> > > industrialized countries is declining. In fact in
some
> > European
> > > countries
> > > the birth rate has fallen below the replacement level
and the
> > population
> > > is actually shrinking. The US is the only country
bucking
> > this trend
> > > and
> > > that is because it is the only one allowing large-
scale
> > immigration. If
> > > you factor that out it has the same problem. The
> > consequences of this
> > > will be a rapidly aging population and an erosion of
the tax
> > base that
> > > makes government services (which support the single
> > lifestyle) possible.
> > > In 300 years time, the extreme selfishness of today
may be
> > seen as just
> > > a
> > > historical blip.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
> > >
> > >
> >
============================================================
====
> > ================
> > > "bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam"
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from ADVAITA-L please send an e-mail to
> > > listserv at l... with
> > > body of the message containing SIGNOFF ADVAITA-L
> > > If you need any other help please contact
listmaster at a...
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> It is noteworthy that Sri Sant Tulsidas, Sri Sankaracharya
> etc are quoted extensively, but only in a manner to justify
> illogical arguments.

Sri Karthik-ji,

I quoted Saint Tulsidasji. But my intention of quoting him was not to support
him, but to say that such statements exist. And unless they are hampering us
in a real way, we should not fight/quarrel over them. That's all. It is in
the same spirit that I quoted Ramayana etc.

I AM NOT AGAINST WOMEN GETTING BRAHMAVIDYA IF A COMPETENT GURU IS WILLING TO
TEACH THEM.

But instead of mumuxutvam if it is a social cause they are fighting for, then I
felt it was not worth the while - THAT'S ALL.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:34:01 -0400
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Why not use advaita to resolve this issue? If advaita is indeed true it must
find a solution to which every one agrees. Any one wants to try?

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 21:56:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


I am game :-)

Regards,
-Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)






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---- On , Bhadraiah Mallampalli (vaidix at H...) wrote:

> Why not use advaita to resolve this issue? If advaita is
indeed true it
> must
> find a solution to which every one agrees. Any one wants to
try?
>
> Best Regards
> Bhadraiah
>
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>
>

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:17:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Tue, 8 May 2001 20:10:23 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>>>prajna was said to be the causal state from which everything is born,
>>> >>and everything includes vizva, taijasa, vidya, avidya or whatever.
>
>>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>>But the causal state of the jIva in the first place is avidyA is it >not?
>
>Wait, you are going too fast. We will talk about jIva later. If you say
that
>the causal state (and consequently the creative capacity) of this prajna is
>due to avidya, then where do you place vidya? Vidya is supposed to be
higher
>than avidya; then how did brahman forget its vidya and get into this
avidya?

It never forgot because there was never any avidyA as far as Brahman is
concerned. Just as everything in the vyAvahArika reality, avidyA too is
real as long as jIvahood exists. Brahman never forgot - then how did this
world come to be; how does the all powerful one delude Himself into all
these variegated objects. That is what our Acharyas have called as
anirvAchanIya - inexplicable. Call that mAyA or avidyA or whatever else you
wish.

>Or do you say that vidya is lower than avidya, and meant for a person under
>avidya to overcome his/her avidya; like people often say, we use jnAna to
>get out of mAya, as if mAya is greater than jnAna? We can place vidya
>somewhere, but where do we place jnAna? This is going no where. :-)
>

I am not saying avidyA is higher or lower than anything. Brahman reflected
in the sattva aspect of Prakriti (called mAyA) is Ishvara. Brahman
reflected in the sattva-tamas-rajas aspect of Prakriti (called avidyA) is
called jIvA. Both these states are unreal once the knowledge of Brahmanhood
dawns. Till it does not, these states exist. Ishvara is aware of his true
Self because the mAyA does not hamper Him and so he is also called the
controller of mAyA. However, jIvA is completely overwhelmed by the
varigatedness it percieves in its state of being enveloped in avidyA. This
avidyA is the reason for its jIvAhood - its causal state.

avidyA = primal nescience

>Also we saw that Ch.U.VI.2.3 says : That (Existence) saw, "I shall become
>many. I shall be born.". So it is clear that Existence, having taken the
>form of saguNa brahman, knowingly and willingly created created all this,
>and not due to avidya. avidya comes much later down the hierarchy. :-)
>

Again, we cannot truly say the Existence saw - what can It see besides
Itself? This is explained, IMHO, only as a vyAvahArik reality in the
Upanishad. We cannot say that there is something like creation that exists
at all as an entity.

>The process of how prajna creates a full blown taijasa/vizva can be
inferred
>from other parts of scriptures, e.g., creation of virAt (puruSa sUkta),
>creation of jIvas (jAtavedas) and so on. I am not too clear on this
process,
>and I do indulge in speculations (like you do), and most of them generally
>end up being wrong. Let us keep trying.
>

:-) So much for my question about savikalpa samAdhi. But lets keep trying.

>But using to explain mANDUkya's prajna is questionable.
>

I only asked about turiyA being a state with ranges of experience, one of
which is savikalpa samAdhi, or whether it is an Absolutely undifferentiated
state.

regards
ashish

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>From kartik at K...
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:46:30 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH
GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH
OM NAMAH SIVAYA
OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA

Blessed Self,
In Adviata there is no Men or Women!! all pure Brahman!!!
I think the questions:
How to define a sudra
How to define a Woman
How to define a Man
have to be answered first in the context of this discussion
before attempting to talk about Manu Smriti.
Pranam
OM

> Why not use advaita to resolve this issue? If advaita is
indeed true it must
> find a solution to which every one agrees. Any one wants
to try?
>
> Best Regards
> Bhadraiah
>
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:11:20 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>Sri Kartik Vashishta wrote..
>In Adviata there is no Men or Women!! all pure Brahman!!!

Denying what we see with our senses is pseudo-advaita. Men and women do
exist as I still see them.

>I think the questions:
>How to define a sudra
>How to define a Woman
>How to define a Man
>have to be answered first in the context of this discussion before
> >attempting to talk about Manu Smriti.

Any way you like to start.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 22:17:14 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thanks Sri Ashish Chandra, that was a good discussion. Knowing the issues
involved, and being aware of the questions is more important than the "final
answers". I see no point taking this further because we know what is the
problem.

Problem and solution is another form of duality. People may fight over
problems or they may fight over what should be the solution. But this
duality itself will also vanish one day, hopefully.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 01:36:22 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Ashish Chandra,

>That there is a jIva in the first place that thinks itself different >from
>Atman is indicative that it is "enveloped" by avidyA, which is >its causal
>state. Unless I am forgetting, this is directly from >Panchdashi by Swami
>Vidyaranya.

Gotcha!

This creation story by Swami Vidyaranyaji starts from jIva! Whereas the the
story involving prajna in mANDUkya starts from top.

When you start from bottom (the jIva), the jIva has avidya... mountains of
it! And this avidya is precisely the "causal" state of this jIva..!

But when you start from the highest entity prajna, it can not have any
avidya, it is not enveloped in any avidya, and it has nothing to do with
avidya. The "causal" state of prajna is born of its own free will/desire to
create : "The existence saw, .." etc. This causal state of prajna is
different from the causal state of jIva. Same words are used, but with
different meanings.

Ascribing avidya to the highest brahman is not correct because you can not
term the king a servant.

On the other hand, ascribing "free will/desire" to jIva is not right when it
is bound by the avidya. The jIva has to get rid of its avidya to attain free
will. Freewill creation is possible only for prajna.

Ofcourse, the jIva also creates its own world when it wakes up from
deep-sleep; and this process is theoretically same as the creation process
of prajna. There is absolutely no difference between the creation activity
of jIva and creation activity of prajna! This may be surprising for some,
but the names are different. The creative activity of prajna is called
"creation", but the creative activity of jIva is called "memory", because
the jiva can only create what was stored in its own little memory (past
karmas etc). On the other hand the prajna can create anything great.

Your kind comments are welcome.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 01:13:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Brahman & Atman
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From: ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>


Namaste
Yes,but:
The desire of the scientist merely reflects the causal
desire for Absolute to experience Itself, the One to
become many. The scientist places boundaries in time
and space in order to gain knowledge but this
knowledge, because of the boundaries, is the lower
knowledge, it comes from tuition. Useful for sending
space ships to Mars and making a cup of coffee but not
for realising the Brahma/AtmA. To realise the latter
higher knowledge, vijnAna, insight or intuition, is
needed and this can only come from the removal of
apparent boundaries in the limitless which we may call
advaita.
There is a hadith, from Islam, that states:'I was a
hidden treasure that wanted to be known so I created
creation in order to be known.' This reminds us of
the veils of adhyaya and adhyasa. The veil conceals
in order to reveal. In order to understand this we
need to accommodate the 'veils' produced by science so
that higher knowledge of dharma can reveal that which
the only True Reality; a Reality unaffected by the
play.
In chapter 18 of Upadesa Sahasri Shankara tells us
that finally the sayings of the Vedas are of no use
for:'Words and mind fall away from Absolute'. They are
only dealing with the reflection in the underlying,
unlimited, single consciousness that is untouched by
the refelection...see Shankara's commentary on verses
3 and 4 of Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9.
So we are back to the paradox which stops the
scientists dead in their tracks: ' He who knows does
not need to ask questions and he who asks questions
cannot know.'
Entering into the play of creation, while not being of
it, we use the tools of the creation not for our own
attainment of realisation for we are already realised,
but to penetrate the veils of delusion that arise from
the creation of boundaries in time and space; to
remove the egos in which we appear to have forgotten
the unlimited Reality. In the world today the veils
produced by science in the debates on the nature of
consciousness are very thin, for they largely arise
from the good questioning of the nature of mind
through psychology and neuroscience. In order to
refute the limited conclusions of such sciences we
need the higher knowledge of Dharma to enter into the
debates. We need to learn the language of the limited
to infiltrate the language of the dharma while at the
same time knowing that ultimately it is only the Self
revealing Itself in Itself.
That is the motive for my own enquiry; I need to
remember that the 'hidden treasure' that needs to be
known is not whom I think that I am, my opinions and
aspirations even if they are most refined. Such
remembrance will then allow the flow of grace,
anugraha, at the precise moment that it is needed for
the Divine will, Iccha, to be realised.
I hope that this is of use to the ongoing discussion,
Ken Knight

--- "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> wrote:
> On Sat, 5 May 2001, naresh cuntoor wrote:
>
> > Namaskara, I agree with the sentiment expressed a
> couple of days ago
> > (by Sri Jaldhar Vyas, I think..but I could be
> wrong about the
> > reference) that reconciling today's scientific
> principles with the
> > Vedas may be an unnecessary task.
>
> When religion misuses science I think it just ends
> up losing the respect
> of people. I know one of the main reasons I prefer
> traditional varieties
> of Hinduism is that modern ones just seemed
> ludicrous with their
> "scientific" explanations. Had that been my only
> exposure to Dharma I
> would probably be an atheist right now.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
>
>
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>From Rajesh Venkataraman <rajesh_venk at y...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 06:09:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Rajesh Venkataraman <rajesh_venk at y...>


--- "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 May 2001, Ravisankar S. Mayavaram wrote:
>
> > At personal level, I am FOR women learning veda-s
> and doing things like
> > sandhyavandana etc.
> > That (I believe) will motivate men to do the same.
>
> I'm afraid history says you're wrong.
>

Even sankarAcArya says in the DakshiNAmurti stotram -
"dEham prANamapIndriyANyapicalAm buddhim ca sUnyam
vidhuh
strI bAlAndhajadOpamAstvahamiti bhrAntA bhrisam
vAdinah..." (5th verse)

Though the issue of women is brought up here albeit in
a different context the very fact that he has brought
it up here seems to indicate the general nature. If he
did not feel that way about women then there is no
need to have brought it up here. He could have as well
quoted some other vastu.

There have been very great women in our tradition like
Maitreyi but I think what we are talking about here is
the 'general' nature of the masses. Exceptions always
exist and rules are 'never' *made* for exceptions.

As Sri Vidyasankar very aptly puts it
"Finally, all the above is in terms of generalities. A
specific case always has its own unique points, and is
much better handled on an individual basis. There are
numerous cases where women have been given
mantropadesha, by some of the most conservative
upholders of the tradition."

We always take pride in the fact that our scriptures
are applicable to all the myriad types of people. What
is wrong in going with the general nature and follow
the scriptures as suited to it (reading Bhagavatam,
puranas etc.?). At the same time no one prevents women
from reading the upanishads.

I think no right thinking person will be for
suppression of women at any level but apparently there
is no cause for fighting for women's rights as well
and that to at this level.

About the issue of Gayatri I have been hearing for a
very long time that women were chanting it, doing
sandyAvandanam in the vedic period etc. Is there any
substantiation anywhere(sruti/smriti) to this effect?
Also if they are not doing it now, are they being
prevented anywhere in the scriptures if they should
not do it? If they are not prevented from doing it I
would like to know why they *should not* do it now.

I am not writing this to hurt anyone's views. Just my
2c.

Regards,
Rajesh




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>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:14:24
Content-Type: text/html
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


<html><DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<P>Many have poured a lot of knowledge about women’s rights and dharma sastras in this forum. I want to add more to this and I hope to make sense here. I hope that people feel better after reading this. I do not want to misquote the Acharyas whom I am referring in the following passages. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. </P>
<P>Before I write anything, I want to talk about what we have seen in 20<SUP>th</SUP> century in South India. On one hand, we had great Sankaracharyas like Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati in Sringeri and Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati in Kanchi preaching the esoteric philosophy Advaita and a totally different subject on ethics - Dharma Sastras. On the other hand, we have had heretics and atheists in Tamil Nadu (and elsewhere also) threatening to destroy temples and bring social justice. These Acharyas preached Sanathana Dharma as practiced in the past without any alteration. Due to their and many others’ efforts, the Sanathana Dharma is surviving today. I have had the opportunity to visit the Kanchi Acharya several times and had His blessings. I can talk here from my personal experience as well as from the lectures of the Acharya being quoted here. </P>
<P>Dharma Sastras:  They were founded by selfless rishis, in the welfare of mankind. They are hard to follow many times and they have prescribed dos and donts for everybody in the society. Though it is a general prescription for the society, sometimes it looks like that they have tried to micro-manage our everyday life. Is there a benefit by following these sastras? I feel that the answer is ‘Yes’. First of all, by doing our karma without expecting the results makes it as Nishkamya karma. This is for the entire social system and this does not apply to Brahmins only. Being a Brahmin is not easy in several ways. There are more "donts" and less "dos" for them. </P>
<P>Kanchi Acharya has said that the purpose of life is to achieve the grace of God and the easiest way is to do our duty selflessly. Bhagavad Gita hails Karma Yoga as superior to other paths. We all know that the Acharya was an embodiment of austerity, devotion and compassion. But His Holiness had tough times too when preaching the Dharma Sastras. If we are ready to do our duty selflessly, we SHOULD certainly follow the Dharma Sastras. Once the Acharya blessed a scavenger with prasadam and treated him like any othr person visiting Him.</P>
<P>What is our duty? </P>
<P>The Hindu caste society worked very well during the rule of Hindu kings. It has worked okay at other times and it is being talked about even today. Dharma sastras were the basis of social and economic system. As and when India started changing its face with invasions, with different economic systems, this social system could not co-exist. Everybody looks at his/her duties differently. I am born in a very orthodox Brahmin family and I am software professional today. I think that my duty is to deliver quality software to the client. Having re-defined my duty, I want to practice this perfectly. I feel that this is not wrong. Kanchi Acharya laments in his lectures that we are going after material wealth and pleasures and asks us to AT LEAST learn a bit of vedas, find time to do nitya karma and not leave our duty as prescribed in the Sastras. He did not forsake us in spite of not following what He said. He continued to insist on importance of the life according to the Dharma S!
 astras, but still was compassionate to those who did not follow.</P>
<P>Is Sanathana Dharma the only way to attain liberation?</P>
<P>Having said that following the Dharma Sastras certainly lead us to achieve the grace of God and thereby liberation, the answer to this question is ‘NO’. There are other ways too. If we read the interview of Dr. S.I. Tulaev with Kanchi Acharya, His Holiness says that even the agnostics can attain salvation, as they are closer to the reality like the Advaitins. </P>
<P>Please read </FONT><A href="http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/5-29.html"><FONT size=2>http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/5-29.html</FONT></A><FONT size=2>. His Holiness quotes the scriptures as the authority for this. Hence, you can see that the Dharma Sastras are mutually inclusive of other Sastras and religions too. </P>
<P>Another example of this is from the life of Ramana Maharishi. The Acharya of Kanchi, had mentioned in his discourses that Ramana Maharishi was a Jivan-mukta and Atma-nishta. Ramana Maharishi did not follow all the rules as prescribed in the sastras and said that He had crossed that level. Kanchi Acharya asked several of his devotees to visit Ramana Maharishi. The same Acharya did not approve when Ramana Maharishi’s mother was not cremated, but interred like a sanyasi. The acharya was camping in Tiruvannamalai when this incident happened, and several pundits from Ramana Ashram used to visit the Acharya during the daily puja hours. The day Ramana Maharishi’s mother was interred, Acharya did not allow the pundits to participate in the puja without taking a bath and changing to different clothes. The next day the pundits did not know what to do and they told Ramana Maharishi about this. The great Ramana Maharishi replied that the Acharya had to demonstrate what he preached as!
 per the Dharma Sastras and told them to do what the Acharya wanted them to do when they visited the Acharya. He added that Ramana Ashram was an independent ashram and He could live by not following some of the rules, but the Acharya could not do that way. The same Acharya, approved people visiting Ramana Ashram later, after the temple was consecrated. At the time of consecration, special mantras are chanted to remove the effects of building a temple over burial grounds.</P>
<P>The point I am trying to bring here is that we should be humble and seeking and we can follow any path to attain the grace of God. But it is better and easier to follow what our parents have given us. </P>
<P>What should we do now?</P>
<P>Great saints like Seshadri Swamigal, Ramana Maharishi and Shirdi Sai Baba have hailed the life as prescribed in the Dharma Sastras, in spite of they not following that way. They had crossed that stage in life where they did not have to follow something to attain liberation. That was the case with Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Swami and Sri Chadrasekhara Bharathi Swami of Sringeri. All these were Jivan-Muktas and Atma-Nishtas. But the Sankaracharyas stood for a tradition for everyone, authorized by the sastras. They do not feel the right to change the system.</P>
<P>I truly feel that we all should strive to follow the Sastras as much as possible, and live a noble life. Please read about the Dharma for everyone in the link mentioned below. </P>
<P></FONT><A href="http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part22/chap1.htm"><FONT size=2>http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part22/chap1.htm</FONT></A><FONT size=2>. This does not pertain to any particular caste or gender.</P>
<P>We should be proud of our roots and the tireless efforts of the Acharyas preaching them. We are living at a totally different time now. The fabric of the society visualized in the Sastras has considerably changed. We can follow any Guru, who is a REALIZED SOUL and by following His/Her teachings as sincerely as we can, we will reach the truth. </P>
<P>I am very proud of the westerners in this forum seeking the TRUTH, experimenting with it in a different way. But, you do not have to leave your faith in your religion, roots or your culture to attain liberation. That is the basic tenet of Sanathana Dharma.</P>
<P>God bless,</P>
<P>Ravi</P></FONT></DIV>
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>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:17:47 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


May I have your kind permission, Raviji and SVSji, to interpose and say how I
understand
the passage :

(1) agyaana-vijrimbhitaanaam , avidya-karyaaNam, upalakshanam , janma.

 janma is the upalakshhaNam of (refers to) the kaarya-s (effects) of avidyaa
. These
 effects are agyaana-vijrimbhita-s.(manifested by agyaana)

(2) samsaarah, avidyaa.

 samsaara refers to avidyaa (itself) ;

 (3) taabhyaam bandhanaat mucyate (mukto bhavati).


 (4) mucyate janma samsaara bandhanaat iti idam upalakshhaNam,
 itareshham phalaanaam api etad grahaNam ;
 mokshhasya praadhaanya khyaapana-artham.

Mokshha from janma- samsaara- bandhana is mentioned here. It is applicable to the
other phalams as well. Mokshha is mentioned in order to indicate
(khyaapanaartham) the
importance of mokshha as the most important phalam.

Regards.
V.M.Sundaram

-------------------------------------
"S. V. Subrahmanian" wrote:

> Sri Ravishankarji,
>
> I am trying to understand. I need some help!
>
> > janma aGYAna vijR^imbhitAnAma
> > vidyAkAryANAm.h upalaxaNam.h, saMsAraH avidyA, tAbhyAM janma
> > saMsArAbhyAM yat.h bandhanaM tasmAt muchyate mukto bhavati iti ShaShTaH
>
> > saMsaara is avidya. janma or birth is a manifestation (vijR^iMbhita) of
> > ignorance (aj~nAna) expressed by (upalaxaNa) in the form of name
> > (nAma), differentiating knowledge (vidya), and action (karya).
>
> Is this the right translation? I am not saying it is not, I am only asking.
>
> "vijR^imbhitAnAma" has a dIrgha "A" inbetween. How did you do the
> padachcheda?
> kAryANAm is in the sixth case (vibhakthi) which is not reflected in your
> translation.
>
> Another question: Why is Shankara distinguishing between samsAra and janma.
> Is not liberation from one an automatic liberation from other?
>
> > Because of the
> > importance (prAdhAnyaH) moxa and as it cannot be covered under other
> > categories (avyApana), this word is used.
> > * I am not sure of the last line. etat.h grahaNam tu moxasya prAdhanyaH
> > avyapAna artham). I understand it as, the last question explicity
> > mentions freedom from saMsaara and not from the effects of other fruits
> > because of the importance of moxa and the fact that it does not come
> > under other categories, but does cover all other categories.
>
> I can't understand this. Can you elaborate?
>
> Regards.
> S. V. Subrahmanian.
>
> __________________________________________________

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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:13:35 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


>From: Bhadraiah Mallampalli <vaidix at H...>
>
>Sri Ashish Chandra,
>
>>That there is a jIva in the first place that thinks itself different >from
>>Atman is indicative that it is "enveloped" by avidyA, which is >its causal
>>state. Unless I am forgetting, this is directly from >Panchdashi by Swami
>>Vidyaranya.
>
>Gotcha!
>
>This creation story by Swami Vidyaranyaji starts from jIva! Whereas the the
>story involving prajna in mANDUkya starts from top.
>

This is not a creation story. You may have already read in my other post
about the distinction between Ishvara, to whom we ascribe omnipotence,
omniscience etc., and jIvA.

ashish
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:17:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> (1) agyaana-vijrimbhitaanaam , avidya-karyaaNam, upalakshanam , janma.
>
> janma is the upalakshhaNam of (refers to) the kaarya-s (effects) of
> avidyaa
> . These
> effects are agyaana-vijrimbhita-s.(manifested by agyaana)

This fits well. Thank you very much.

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>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:19:16 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
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From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


Namaste Jaldhar,

I had honestly intended to stay out of this debate, but here it goes since
you directly question me. I know you will ask why? because, I see no benefit
in flame wars and intellectual one upmanship. Hence, this will be my last
post on the topic. Spiritual matters are very subjective and left to the
person and their Guru to decide the right course.

I have always admired your zeal and fervor in keeping up the sanatana
dharma, kudos to you!, but i am sorry to say even a million Jaldhars will
not be able to reverse the circumstances and take us back to the vedic ages.
In looking at your rebuttals from a few years, I have an advice for you, if
you care to heed it. Please mellow down a little and say the same thing a
little better without personal attack. Also, you don't HAVE to feel
responsible to have the final say in all arguments and defend your views at
all costs. I think that would only tense you up and make you respond
haughtily sometimes.

> >
> > Don't let others tell you that you don't have adhikaara for
> > brahmavidya or vedaabhyaasa because the Mana dharma shaastra
> > says so - your question to them should be what about the 90% of
> > the laws that applies to male brahmins that haven't had even
> > the slightest chance for adherence??
> >
>
>What about them? How does ignoring the remaining 10% increase the chances
>any?

Certainly not, But why is this one fault (if fault it were!) such a big
deal, worth arguing about for days so emotionally when blatant
non-adherences are obvious in broad daylight by our bothers, day in and day
out, and they still think they are responsible for safeguarding the dharma
of all???

>
> > You know, it is the nature if human mind to find out the reason
> > for any given dos or donts. After thinking about this for a
> > while and bringing it up with several learned people, I
> > justified it within myself that this adhikaara that the women
> > don't have for the study of the vedas is for the karma or the
> > ritual part, not for the jnana or upasane part.
>
>Which if you remember back is what I said in one of the first messages in
>the thread. I don't know why this discussion has suddenly jumped to
>Moksha. We started out talking about Dharma. These are two seperate
>purusharthas with two seperate goals and thus two seperate sets of
>assumptions.

Yes, I am aware of it.

>
>I would like to clarify one thing though, the adhikara is for jnana
>through Gita, Puranas, etc. Not for the jnanakanda of the Shruti itself.
>See Brahmasutra 1.3.34-38 which though specifically about Shudras also
>applies to women.

I am not well versed in the BrahmasUtras (surprise!). Is this your
assumption that it applies to women too, Or, does it clearly say that??

>
> > This should
> > kind of make sense to everyone - the performer has to have
> > certain qualifications for performance of a prescribed action,
> > but who can really prevent you from manana and nidhidhyaasana?
> > Only a doctor can perform an operation, only an engineer can
> > construct a bridge, etc. If this is not the case, the results
> > will be catastrophic!! When the essense of the vedas is that
> > each one of us is the nondual substratum brahman, how could it
> > be that it prevents you from reflecting and understanding its
> > meaning?
> >
>
> > If this is not the case, how do you explain the numerous
> > Rishikas in the Rig Veda?? To name a few, apAla, shraddha,
> > godha, amBR^INI vishvavArA, ghoshA, sUryA, ratri bhAradvAjI,
> > etc.
>
>This has come up in the list before if you recall. Being a Rshi means
>being a mantradrashta. It implies nothing about the moral or spiritual
>condition of the seer.

In my opinion, your conclusion is wrong!


>
> > What about the brahmavAdins maitreyI and gArgI??
> > If they did not study and understand the vedas, could they have
> > argued like they did??
> >
>
>Maitreyi for example was taught by her husband Yajnavalkya before he took
>sannyasa.

So what?? Her husband was her Guru and she learnt brahmavidya from him. That
doesn't mean her knowledge is in anyway lower than another brahmavaadin's.
Or, does it?? Or, do you mean to say we can do vedaaabhyaasa and attain
brahmajnaana from our husbands??


>Exactly. So why do anadhikaris have to study the Vedas if they can get
>the same effect from studying the Gita?

Why do you read more than there is to it? My suggestion was that Geetha is a
pre-requisite for the attainment of sadhana chatushtayaa.

By the way, what do you mean by study? Is reciting, or perusing to find out
what it has, the same as study? Not so, in my opinion.

For example take the veda vaakhyas - "satyaM vada, dharmaM chara", or even
"maatR^i devo bhava, pitR^i devo bhava, aacharya devo bhava, athithi devo
bhava" You know as well as I do, everyone teaches this to their kids at
home. Now, should mothers not say this?, not hear this? not even follow
this? Are all women exempted from following this? What about the veda
shlokas "sahanaavavatu..." or "na tatra suuryo bhati....". These are
commonly recited everyday in most households and most kids know them. What
about them?? Is it ok to recite just 2 to 5 vakhyas from the vedas, and not
50 or 60??


>
> > When I used to stand in front of the lord and the vedas were
> > being recited in unison, knowingly or unknowingly I used to
> > recite parts of it that I knew just by merely hearing it over a
> > period of time. There is extreme bliss and harmony when I stand
> > there and recite what ever I know. If this is the case, I
> > decided why not learn these from a qualified Guru. In this
> > respect, I am totally blessed, I met no obstacles in this
> > endevour. We have quite a large Veda group here, and I am not
> > the only female. I was surprised to find a few other girls and
> > women had similar views as I did, and what more our Guruji
> > is so kind and encouraging to us.
> >
>
>So the qualification for learning becomes "if it feels good"? What
>happens if someone decides it doesn't feel as good as watching MTV? Then
>they should start reciting TV Guide? This may seem far-fetched to you
>because you have good intentions and a Dharmic background you can draw
>upon. But as time goes on and generations pass, that background erodes.
>If you replace a sense of duty with a sense of self-gratification you end
>up no better than the materialists. Eventually religion will be just
>a thin wallpaper over naked narcissism. Don't believe me? Look at
>history.

This is too.. far.... fetched. You have a right to your opinion just as I
have a right to mine. Religious and spiritual feelings are highly
subjective, and in my opinion no one can condemn any other's expressions.

>
> > There is a proverb in kannaDa, If God is willing, how can the
> > pujari hold back? If Saraswathi wants to dance on your
> > tongue, can anyone prevent Her? If you intensely desire for
> > some thing spiritual, my experience is that you will definitely
> > get it.
> >
>
>And tomorrow when you're bored with that experience you can go shopping
>for a new one. You end up like the new age people vapidly
>flitting from one "experience" to another like the consumers they really
>are.

My previous comment applies here too! You lose your credibility when you
talk like this, trampling upon another's "experiences"(??)

>
> > To borrow an analogy from Sri Satchidanandendra Saraswathi
> > Swamiji - It is true that not all people have the qualification
> > for being a theoritical physicist or a particle physicist, but
> > does that mean that all these people are banned from
> > experiencing everyday physics?? Even a child knows that
> > a thing that is thrown up will fall back to the earth due to
> > gravity. Similarly with the scriptures, each one takes away
> > what he/she is capable of absorbing.
> >
>
>Another thing that bothers me about this thread is why when we are talking
>of "scripture" only the Vedas or Manusmrti are being mentioned? Women
>have their own spiritual practices which have been passed down from time
>immemorial. Do they count for nothing? For instance Sunday, Nrsimha
>chaturdashi, my mother and wife did a particular thing (Sorry I'm not yet
>at liberty to say what it was and why just yet..) My mother performed
   the
>vidhi, my father wasn't even there and I watched from the couch. It was
>not Vedic (In fact my mother took pains to point that out) but did that
>mean anyone took it any less seriously?

Gotcha! so, you are also nonvedic sometimes!!

>
>This view of "scriptures" you're suggesting in fact says that the measure
>of a woman is in how much she copies a man. It ignores the traditions
>women have passed down from generation to generation just because they
>were maybe not written down or maybe not in Sanskrit. This to me is more
>anti-woman than anything the astikas can come up with.

So, you have some preconcieved ideas about a woman, and anything anybody
does against your ideas is anti-woman!

>
> > To me, coming to the West and being far away from my roots and
> > spiritual heritage was a blessing in disguise, so also was the
> > reading of the Laws of Manu. An intense desire to get back to
> > my roots and true nature took a strong grip over me. Of course,
> > all this is His grace and nothing else.I always make atleast a
> > couple of hours in my busy schedule for dhyaana and scriptural
> > studies, and the satisfaction I get is immense. The best
> > thing about being on the spiritual path for me as a mother and
> > wife is to be able to mould my children and family towards
> > higher values and goals. In this, I can unabashedly say that a
> > father is definitely not as effective.
>
>Unabashedly or not, doesn't that bother you? I'm curious as to how given
>the sentiments expressed in this thread, such a comment can just pass by.
>

NO, absolutely not, and why should it bother you? It has been known for
generations that women are more caring and capable of loving and nurturing
kids better than men. Is this news to you? or, do you want the men to get
the crown in this also?? Remember, I am just refuting your charge here - it
is not my contention that women are better or men are better. I was just
expressing a satisfaction that I had derived in nurturing my family.

> >
> > I know this is just one opinion from a list member, but
> > everything is subjective and up for grabs, it is up to you to
> > make anything out of it. I am sending this to your email, but
> > if you see it fit for the list, please go ahead and post it,
> > especially if some other silent female members can
> > benefit from it.
>
>I don't see why silent female members (or male ones for that matter) can't
>speak up on matters that concern them. When you initially demured from
>doing the Vishnusahasranama postings didn't Ravi and I encourage you? It
>is great that women are involved in Dharma. We want to encourage that.
>But the best way we can help is by telling you the truth. My purpose in
>giving the answers I have given in this thread is not to make anyone happy
>or unhappy but to tell the truth. Because I don't see how lies help you
>or me or anyone. If some members are silent only because they are afraid
>of what they might hear then that's just cowardice and doesn't deserve any
>sympathy from anyone.
>

Sorry, but don't you see, I stopped the vishNusahasranaama postings inspite
of your coaxings? Or, is it about you that you encourage women on the list
to do dharmic acts??
Yes, Jaldhar, I know a lot of people don't voice their opinions because the
contributing few (read - one) are too boisterous and oppresive in their
opinions. As a list co-owner, if you really want more people to participate
and a healthy flow of arguments, someone will have to cool down and back off
a little.


Some of what I have said seems too personal, but that was just to expose how
personal you were. In spite of all this, I have great respect for you and
some of your dharmic acts.

Namaste to all,
Savithri

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:58:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Sun, 8 May 0101 22:46:30 GMT, Kartik Vashishta <kartik at K...> wrote:

>OM
>GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH
>GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH
>OM NAMAH SIVAYA
>OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA
>
>Blessed Self,
>In Adviata there is no Men or Women!! all pure Brahman!!!
>I think the questions:
>How to define a sudra
>How to define a Woman
>How to define a Man
>have to be answered first in the context of this discussion
>before attempting to talk about Manu Smriti.
>Pranam
>OM
>

Dear Kartik,

I think everyday experience defines Man and woman. As far as the varna-s
are concerned, the Dharma Shastras of Sanatan Dharma have already defined
them.

It is true that all are Brahman but then why is everyone on this list? And
who is this All when there is only One? The question should be, does
everyone here feels he/she needs liberation? If he/she does then it implies
duality does it not? We cannot pretend that duality does not exist and that
liberation will come to us if we just *think* we are Brahman. Till we get
there, every injuction of our dharma applies. We don't have a choice apart
from rejecting it all. But we cannot aspire to get to the roof and kick
away the ladder.

I think in another earlier post, you had mentioned that none here needs any
ratification from the other. I agree. But we cannot make a mish-mash of
what our dharma teaches and take only what we like. If dharma promises
moksha as its end, it also requires that some restrictions and limits be
placed on its adherents. And it does not do so so that only a few reach the
destination. It does so for all.

I too count myself as a follower of Swami Sivananda's lineage. From the
little I have read of him, he exhorts everyone to follow dharma. Nowhere
does he suggest that we undertake the task of defining what dharma. We
don't need to redefine anything - the wheel was invented long ago and is
even today verified to be working in perfect condition. It is only us who
have to get our act together.

ashish

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Atman and Brahman
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:42:11 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>This is not a creation story. You may have already read in my other post
>about the distinction between Ishvara, to whom we ascribe omnipotence,
>omniscience etc., and jIvA.

You are right it is not a creation story. It is a dissolution story. When
the jIva understands the true nature of avidya it is engulfed in, and when
it faces this avidya courageously, dissolution is immediate.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:55:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


namaste

Thank you very much. I went wrong in splitting the words there. I will
try to be more careful and try to contemplate deeply before I post.

Please do correct me whenever I make mistakes.

Sincerely,

Ravi


--- "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...> wrote:
> May I have your kind permission, Raviji and SVSji, to interpose and
> say how I
> understand
> the passage :
>
> (1) agyaana-vijrimbhitaanaam , avidya-karyaaNam, upalakshanam ,
> janma.
>
> janma is the upalakshhaNam of (refers to) the kaarya-s
> (effects) of avidyaa
> . These
> effects are agyaana-vijrimbhita-s.(manifested by agyaana)
>
> (2) samsaarah, avidyaa.
>
> samsaara refers to avidyaa (itself) ;
>
> (3) taabhyaam bandhanaat mucyate (mukto bhavati).
>
>
> (4) mucyate janma samsaara bandhanaat iti idam
> upalakshhaNam,
> itareshham phalaanaam api etad grahaNam ;
> mokshhasya praadhaanya khyaapana-artham.
>
> Mokshha from janma- samsaara- bandhana is mentioned here. It is
> applicable to the
> other phalams as well. Mokshha is mentioned in order to indicate
> (khyaapanaartham) the
> importance of mokshha as the most important phalam.
>
> Regards.
> V.M.Sundaram
>
> -------------------------------------
> "S. V. Subrahmanian" wrote:
>
> > Sri Ravishankarji,
> >
> > I am trying to understand. I need some help!
> >
> > > janma aGYAna vijR^imbhitAnAma
> > > vidyAkAryANAm.h upalaxaNam.h, saMsAraH avidyA, tAbhyAM janma
> > > saMsArAbhyAM yat.h bandhanaM tasmAt muchyate mukto bhavati iti
> ShaShTaH
> >
> > > saMsaara is avidya. janma or birth is a manifestation
> (vijR^iMbhita) of
> > > ignorance (aj~nAna) expressed by (upalaxaNa) in the form of name
> > > (nAma), differentiating knowledge (vidya), and action (karya).
> >
> > Is this the right translation? I am not saying it is not, I am
> only asking.
> >
> > "vijR^imbhitAnAma" has a dIrgha "A" inbetween. How did you do the
> > padachcheda?
> > kAryANAm is in the sixth case (vibhakthi) which is not reflected in
> your
> > translation.
> >
> > Another question: Why is Shankara distinguishing between samsAra
> and janma.
> > Is not liberation from one an automatic liberation from other?
> >
> > > Because of the
> > > importance (prAdhAnyaH) moxa and as it cannot be covered under
> other
> > > categories (avyApana), this word is used.
> > > * I am not sure of the last line. etat.h grahaNam tu moxasya
> prAdhanyaH
> > > avyapAna artham). I understand it as, the last question explicity
> > > mentions freedom from saMsaara and not from the effects of other
> fruits
> > > because of the importance of moxa and the fact that it does not
> come
> > > under other categories, but does cover all other categories.
> >
> > I can't understand this. Can you elaborate?
> >
> > Regards.
> > S. V. Subrahmanian.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
>
>
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:13:49 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>I think everyday experience defines Man and woman. As far as the varna-s
>are concerned, the Dharma Shastras of Sanatan Dharma have already >defined
>them...

>I too count myself as a follower of Swami Sivananda's lineage. From the
>little I have read of him, he exhorts everyone to follow dharma. Nowhere
>does he suggest that we undertake the task of defining what dharma...

We will need to discuss in detail from various angles, sticking to advaita
as much as possible.

1. The intrinsic nature of different beings man, woman, varNas etc as
related to advaita.

2. Nature of beings as per roles attached to them by a society. The feelings
of a woman in patriachical society may be similar to feelings of men in a
matriarchical society! My intention is not to divert the discussion, but
against women, but the role itself can be a cause of misunderstanding.
Understanding that some conflicts are arising from the roles can clear the
issues. We may need to reform the roles for modern society.

3. Some of the dharmas may be "really" obsolete. The ultimate truth is
constant, but some local dharmas have to change depending on time but there
might have been a neglect on this part because there was no functioning
Vedic society for several centuries and no competent shisthas got down to
work on this. Not reforming when really needed is the best medicine for
further decay.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:29:27 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


----Original Message Follows----
From: Savithri Devaraj <savdev at H...>


>
>I would like to clarify one thing though, the adhikara is for jnana
>through Gita, Puranas, etc. Not for the jnanakanda of the Shruti itself.
>See Brahmasutra 1.3.34-38 which though specifically about Shudras also
>applies to women.

I am not well versed in the BrahmasUtras (surprise!). Is this your
assumption that it applies to women too, Or, does it clearly say that??
VA: That is so true. The above adhikarana has no reference to women at all
and attempts to bring the adhikaara of women into this adhikarana is
utsutra.

>This has come up in the list before if you recall. Being a Rshi means
>being a mantradrashta. It implies nothing about the moral or spiritual
>condition of the seer.

In my opinion, your conclusion is wrong!
VA: Savirthriji is right. Rishis are not merely Mantradrashta. Yaska adds:
"sakshatkrtadharmaa" in defining Rishis.

> > What about the brahmavAdins maitreyI and gArgI??
> > If they did not study and understand the vedas, could they have
> > argued like they did??
> >
>
>Maitreyi for example was taught by her husband Yajnavalkya before he took
>sannyasa.
VA: I would like to know if there is even ONE passage in ALL the Samhitas,
Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads (not in the later, apocryphal text like
Nrsimhmapurva Tapani), Kalpasutras, Purvottaramimamsa, chhanda, nirukta,
vyakarana, siksa... wherein women are debarred from studying the Vedas.
Please do not quote Manu because the text is highly corrupt. Infact, Kulluka
clearly quotes additional verses (in some manuscripts available to him)
wherein agnihotra etc. is enjoined upon women. And I could quote
contradictory passages (eg. from Katyayana Dharmashastra) wherin husbands
who prevent their wives from karmakanda are censured. Is there any proof
that the women listed as Mantradrashtas by Savithriji were all taught by
their husbands?

Regards

Vishal








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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:26:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Wed, 9 May 2001 11:13:49 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

Shri Bhadraiah-ji,

>
>We will need to discuss in detail from various angles, sticking to advaita
>as much as possible.
>

But what is different between Advaita and Sanatan Dharma? Truly speaking,
Advaita is more about practice and most of us on this list are only engaged
in furthering our knowledge of this system as opposed to faithfully
practising it, which is meant strictly for one possessing the saadhanaa
chaatushtayam, which in most cases applies to Sannyaasis alone. As far as
Advaita is concerned, it does not teach anything new about how dharma is to
be practiced. In fact, I doubt if it has any problem with Purva Mimamsa
about how to enagage in karmakanda. Every Shankaracharya preaches only to
follow dharma as it has been already enshrined in our Shastras. There is no
Advaita way of living that is different from what the Mimamsakas have
described as far as karma is concerned.

>1. The intrinsic nature of different beings man, woman, varNas etc as
>related to advaita.
>

Againt, where Advaita comes in, these differences have no meaning. But till
then karma and its related injunctions apply.

ashish

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>From Aniruddhan <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:06:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Aniruddhan <owner-advaita-l at L...>


namo namah.

It seems to me that the question to ask is: All of us immensely respect the
acharyas in our guru parampara starting right from Vasistha (the first human
person in our guru parampara) through Sankara till the present day acharyas,
and many of them have been jivanmuktas. Why, then, have none of them (at
least the ones who are "post vedic") tried to modify the existing
dharmashastras or create new ones, with "egalitarian" notions? There could
be two reasons for this: One, they were all men and hence didn't see things
from a woman's point of view; or two, they didn't feel the need to do so,
since they felt that overall it wouldn't make (too much of) a difference
(except maybe on a personal basis) as far as the final goal is concerned;
i.e., as far as moksha (the final goal) is concerned, jnana can be obtained
as easily(?) from the smriti texts like The Gita and the Puranas as from the
Shruti. Furthermore, I remember reading in the archives that the Acharyas
don't disallow women from READING the Shruti/translation texts, whereas
CHANTING them is a different matter. Now, would it be right to say that the
knowledge gained from the shruti by reading it and meditating on the meaning
cannot be too different from when chanting it?

Personally, I'm not knowledgable enough to know what exactly the
dharma-shastras say. But I feel (as some others do) that this matter is best
left to the respective gurus of the persons.

My 2cents worth.

Sruti smRti purANAnAm Alayam karuNAlayam
namAmi bhagavatpAda Sam.karam lokaSam.karam

Aniruddhan

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


--- Aniruddhan <aniruddhan at E...> wrote:
>
> Personally, I'm not knowledgable enough to know what exactly the
> dharma-shastras say. But I feel (as some others do) that this matter
> is best
> left to the respective gurus of the persons.
>


You are correct. Last night while driving home, I was quite unhappy
with myself for expressing a (personal) opinion in general on women
learning veda-s and doing sandyavandana etc., when I had no authority
or say on that matter. Hereby, I withdraw my comments, and will remain
silent on this issue. Probably my energy will be well spent if I use
it for understanding vishhNu sahasranAma bhaashhya and lalitaa
trishatii bhaashhya of shankara (as far as Advaita-L is concerned).





=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From Sankaran Panchapagesan <panchap at i...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: In response to Shri.Ganesh.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sankaran Panchapagesan <panchap at i...>


Dear Ms. Shuba,
 After reading your post, I accept that some of Sri Jaldhar's
statements were directed personally at you and were offensive to you. I
apologize for whatever pain it may have caused you.

I guess my 2cents weren't worth even that!

Regards,
Ganesh.

On Wed, 9 May 2001, Shuba (by way of Shuba swamis at u...) wrote:

> Shri.Ganesh-ji,
>
> > He attacked them bluntly, but he did it logically and from
> >his own viewpoint.
>
> Bluntness I have no issue with.
>
> But the post is sprinkled liberally with the following types of
> statements:
>
> " Why not try actually asking one or more how they put this
> shastric injunction into practice in their lives? "
>
> The above statement is what I would call patronizing.
>
> " Perhaps that's why feminist arguments don't move me that
> much."
> And who was making a feminist argument?! If I ask about the
> egalitarian nature of Sanatana dharma it somehow gets me
> labelled a feminist?! Thats not a personal attack?
>
> "If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of
> mumukshatvam is 0."
>
> THIS is EXACTLY what I meant by attacking me instead of my POV.
> I will be happy to hear that from my guru, but not from any
> random person in cyber-space whose only exposure to me is via
> this mailing list!
>
> " A jaundiced eye might see this as "blackmail" "
>
> And how does this not count as attacking me? I am at a loss
> here, and I would be happy to hear your (Ganesh's) explanation.
>
> >After all if your parents hadn't gotten married and had you,
> >you wouldn't be in a position to be choosing whether to get
> >married or not would youu?
>
> If this is not the dictionary definition of patronizing, what
> is? The last time I checked, I did not invite Shri. Jaldhar-ji
> to comment on the reason for my existence or a diagnosis of
> what ails me. This is about as personal as it gets, don't you
> think?
>
> Regards,
> Shuba
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
> people and the affection of children; To earn the
> appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
> friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
> leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
> breathed easier because you have lived.
>
> This is to have succeeded.
>
> -Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________
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>
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>
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>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: shruti and jnAna
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


Hello:
In the thread "Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma", ShrI
Aniruddhan wrote:
> jnana can be obtained
> as easily(?) from the smriti texts like The Gita and the
> Puranas as from the
> Shruti.

 While bramhavidyam may be gained from smriti texts, jnana
is the sole preserve of shruti. This is my understanding.
If not, what is the purpose of shruti? If smRti can impart
jnAna then we need not study shruti at all. No?

 AFAIK, jnAna is the direct result of hearing, reflecting
and meditating upon the grand utterances of shruti.
While it may be possible to "attain" this experience
without
the aid of shruti, the tradition highly recommends the
proper study of shruti. This is the impression that I have
gotten from the various threads on this list and the
introductory books of vedanta.

Here is a thread that deals with the mahAvakya-s :
http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m8144.html

I kindly request list members to shed more light on this.

-Vivek.

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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:08:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: In response to Shri.Ganesh.
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Shri.Ganesh-ji,

Please, there is no need for apologies of any kind! I
understand perfectly that no offense was intended. Please be
reassured that none was taken.

The one good thing that has come of my stirring the hornet's
nest is that many here-to silent list members have chosen to
make themselves heard, though I am afraid it may be a strictly
passing phase unless Smt.Savithri-ji's suggestions are
seriously heeded.

As to logical responses to Shri.Jaldhar's post, I think between
Savithri-ji and Vishal-ji, they have all the bases covered. I
lack the knowledge and insight to add anything more to all
that's been already said.

Regards,
Shuba

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)







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>From Sankaran Aniruddhan <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:02:07 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: shruti and jnAna
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sankaran Aniruddhan <owner-advaita-l at L...>


namo namah.

> While bramhavidyam may be gained from smriti texts, jnana
> is the sole preserve of shruti. This is my understanding.

but then, is brahma-vidya different from jnana? I have
been under the impression that they are the same thing.

> If not, what is the purpose of shruti? If smRti can impart
> jnAna then we need not study shruti at all. No?

I think it could be similar to the concept of the sanyasa
ashrama. One does not absolutely have to go through this
ashrama (physically) to become a jivanmukta, but it is
highly recommended that one does so, since the probability
of gaining jnana otherwise is miniscule.

> While it may be possible to "attain" this experience
> without
> the aid of shruti, the tradition highly recommends the
> proper study of shruti.

but if its possible to attain this experience without the
aid of shruti, shruti does not have sole preserve over
jnana, right? What is possible however, is that those
persons who seem to have attained jnana without the shruti
in the present life, might have learnt the shruti in an
earlier life, but which has borne fruit only now.

> Here is a thread that deals with the mahAvakya-s :
> http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m8144.html

thanks for the info. I'll carefully go through the
messages in the thread.

> I kindly request list members to shed more light on this.

me too!

Sruti smRti purANAnAm Alayam karuNAlayam
namAmi bhagavatpAda Sam.karam lokaSam.karam

Aniruddhan

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 19:43:51 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>I too count myself as a follower of Swami Sivananda's lineage. From the
>little I have read of him, he exhorts everyone to follow dharma. >Nowhere
>does he suggest that we undertake the task of defining what >dharma...

sanAtana dharma is not just a set of rules. I am not saying throw the rules
to wind, but it is also necessary to know that dharma is a living tradition.
We gather to learn advaita because we are competent for knowledge, or we may
be trying to acquire such competence. As we are anyway working with
knowledge, why not use it practically to verify the rules we practice?

>I think everyday experience defines Man and woman. As far as the varna->s
>are concerned, the Dharma Shastras of Sanatan Dharma have already >defined
>them...

I don't challenge this claim, but how much of it have we understood? As
Sankara says in the beginning of Chandogya vyAkhyAna, knowledge is greater
than following rites.

>most of us on this list are only engaged in furthering our knowledge >of
>this system as opposed to faithfully practising it,

This is not meant to be a comment on any one's practice, but idle knowledge
is worthless if it is not put to use.

So rites without knowledge, and knowledge without rites are both not upto
the mark. It is better to acquire the knowledge of the rites and become a
prime mover to practice the knowledge-rite. :-)

>>1. The intrinsic nature of different beings man, woman, varNas etc as
>>related to advaita.

>Again, where Advaita comes in, these differences have no meaning. But >till
>then karma and its related injunctions apply.

There seems to be a misunderstanding that absolute advaita does not advise
the action to be taken. On the contrary it is very specific about the
action.

Let us go back to Sri Vidyaranya's teaching:
>That there is a jIva in the first place that thinks itself different >from
>Atman is indicative that it is "enveloped" by avidyA, which is >its causal
>state. Unless I am forgetting, this is directly from >Panchdashi by Swami
>Vidyaranya.

Even though every jIva has avidya, the "precise" nature of this avidya is
different from one being to another. And the "action" taken by each being is
dictated by the nature of avidya of each being.

Now avidya itself always prompts action, and this action dictated by avidya
will again mostly keep us within avidya.

But if we refuse to be dictated by avidya, and use advaita to get rid of the
avidya first, then we get a better picture about the action to be taken and
this action will not lead to bondage. At least the new action may be
dictated by the avidya of an improved self :-) So it is proved that advaita
helps us in taking better decisions for action. It is like how a boss who is
higher up can take better decision. Not really a rocket science, isn't it?

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Sankaran Aniruddhan <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 16:53:54 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: shruti and jnAna
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sankaran Aniruddhan <owner-advaita-l at L...>


namo namah.

In Reply to Shri Vivek's message:

>> If not, what is the purpose of shruti? If smRti can impart
>> jnAna then we need not study shruti at all. No?

I wrote:

> I think it could be similar to the concept of the sanyasa
> ashrama. One does not absolutely have to go through this
> ashrama (physically) to become a jivanmukta, but it is
> highly recommended that one does so, since the probability
> of gaining jnana otherwise is miniscule.

I was just reading again what I'd written, with reference
to the subject at hand, and I think I'll have to eat my
words. I feel that what I have written above cannot be
correct, since, if such is the case, then that also means
that women and others not having authority to learn the
vedas will also have miniscule chance of obtaining jnana.
Sorry for that implication.

Sruti smRti purANAnAm Alayam karuNAlayam
namAmi bhagavatpAda Sam.karam lokaSam.karam

Aniruddhan

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>From Sudhir Chandrasekhar <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 05:10:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Doubts on rebirth
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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From: Sudhir Chandrasekhar <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namastae,

I have a very elementary doubt on rebirth - which was
spoken on the list a few
days ago.

I understand that the Brahman is the only reality and
what we experience daily

has no existance in reality. It is much like a dream
and we all need to wake

up from the dream .
If this is the case who is going to be reborn? It
cannot be the Brahman who

is one with out duality. There does not exist anything
apart the Brahman......

To whom does the principle of Karma affect? I am
unable to understand the theories
of rebirth in this context.

Please throw some light on this and help me.

Thanks,
Sudhir


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>From "Venkat Shrinivas" <vsh at C...>
Subject: Re: Doubts on rebirth
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:32:57 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Venkat Shrinivas" <vsh at C...>


Namaskaram Sudhirji,
 Just to add my two cents worth on this- the rebirth exists only in the
mind- as a result of unexhausted vasanas that remain after this birth. As
long as the mind has residual vasanas, there is "rebirth" because we do not
see ourselves as Brahman, but as a sum total of our vasanas. Yes, the
Brahman is unalterable and has no rebirth, but as long as we do not
experience that we are Brahman, our mind is reborn again and again, taking
various physical forms. The principle of karma affects the mind that
considers itself apart from the Brahman. It is only when we identify
ourselves with the mind and perceive duality are we affected by rebirth and
karma. Once this false identification in the mind is let go of, then the
true nature of self is realised and there is no rebirth or accumulation of
vasanas/karma.
Abhirami Shrinivas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sudhir Chandrasekhar" <jnanagni at Y...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at A...>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:10 AM
Subject: Doubts on rebirth


> Namastae,
>
> I have a very elementary doubt on rebirth - which was
> spoken on the list a few
> days ago.
>
> I understand that the Brahman is the only reality and
> what we experience daily
>
> has no existance in reality. It is much like a dream
> and we all need to wake
>
> up from the dream .
> If this is the case who is going to be reborn? It
> cannot be the Brahman who
>
> is one with out duality. There does not exist anything
> apart the Brahman......
>
> To whom does the principle of Karma affect? I am
> unable to understand the theories
> of rebirth in this context.
>
> Please throw some light on this and help me.
>
> Thanks,
> Sudhir
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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====
> "bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam"
>
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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:52:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Doubts on rebirth
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Thu, 10 May 2001 05:10:28 -0700, Sudhir Chandrasekhar
<jnanagni at Y...> wrote:

>Namastae,
>
>I have a very elementary doubt on rebirth - which was
>spoken on the list a few
>days ago.
>
>I understand that the Brahman is the only reality and
>what we experience daily
>
>has no existance in reality. It is much like a dream
>and we all need to wake
>
>up from the dream .
>If this is the case who is going to be reborn? It
>cannot be the Brahman who
>

Dear Sudhir,

Birth, death and rebirth are all dream events. Death does not imply end of
the dream unless jnAna dawns before it. Then a person is a jIvanmukta while
living and when such a person dies, he/she becomes a videhamukta.

>is one with out duality. There does not exist anything
>apart the Brahman......
>
>To whom does the principle of Karma affect? I am
>unable to understand the theories
>of rebirth in this context.
>

Karma will affect that (jIvA) which thinks itself different from it's true
nature (Brahman) no matter if one is human, rakshasa, deva, kinnara , nAga,
gandharva or whatever else. NishkAma karma is that which is performed under
the complete conviction that one is not different from the universe, that
the universe is one and the universal is acting through the universal when
your or I act. Under this conviction, karma does not bind the karttA. This
is as far as I know. Others can always correct me.

ashish

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>From "venkata subramanian" <venkat_advaita at r...>
Date: 10 May 2001 15:32:11 -0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Shankarananda Saraswathi's Commentary
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "venkata subramanian" <venkat_advaita at r...>


Can any one kindly help me to find a book

Sri Vidyaranya's Guru Sri Shanakarananda Saraswathi has graced his excellent Sanskrit Deepika (commentary) on 27 Upanishads including the 10 principal Upanishads, Gita and Brahma-Sutras.

Of the 27, a few have been published by Anandasrama Sanskrit Sansthan, Pune.

I am deligently searching for a copy of his Deepika on the Kata, Mundaka, Aithareya, Chandogya and Brihadaranyaka Upanishads, but couldn't find them anywhere including Madras Kuppuswamy Research Institute, Kanchi International Library at Enathur.

Can anyone kindly guide me regarding its availability as to by whom, where etc. so that i may either get a copy or atleast a photocopy.

Thankyou all very much

S. Venkata Subramanian
Venkat_advaita at r...

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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:59:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


On Wed, 9 May 2001 19:43:51 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
<vaidix at H...> wrote:

>
>sanAtana dharma is not just a set of rules. I am not saying throw the rules
>to wind, but it is also necessary to know that dharma is a living
tradition.
>We gather to learn advaita because we are competent for knowledge, or we
may
>be trying to acquire such competence. As we are anyway working with
>knowledge, why not use it practically to verify the rules we practice?
>

How do we verify that Agnihotra has to be conducted everyday? How do we
verify that Jyotishtoma must be performed for one desirous of heaven?
Advaita doesn't say anything about these because it transcends them. It is
not meant for people engaged in performance of karma (karma as defined by
what applies by varna and ashrama).

>
>There seems to be a misunderstanding that absolute advaita does not advise
>the action to be taken. On the contrary it is very specific about the
>action.
>

Could you please elaborate on this - what action (karma) should be
performed by one engaged in shrvaNa, manana and niddhidhyAsana?

>
>Even though every jIva has avidya, the "precise" nature of this avidya is
>different from one being to another. And the "action" taken by each being
is
>dictated by the nature of avidya of each being.
>

How do we know this? Do we percieve any duality when we are in our causal
state i.e. in deep sleep? Does the shruti say that avidyA (causal state)
differs from jIvA to jIvA?

ashish

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Shankarananda Saraswathi's Commentary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


My cursory search did not yield any results and I found some references
for other upaniShads but not for those listed below. Some of the
members on the list are University students (in the US), and many of
these Universities subscribe to something called WorldCat
(FirstSearch), it is a catalog of many library catalogs. It is a good
database. I was able to locate shrI niilakaNTha dIxita's
AnandasAgarastavaH with translation published in 40s by kAnchi maTha
using this search sometime back.

Probably those who have access to it can search and help shrI V.S.


Ravi



--- venkata subramanian <venkat_advaita at r...> wrote:
> Can any one kindly help me to find a book
>
> Sri Vidyaranya's Guru Sri Shanakarananda Saraswathi has graced his
> excellent Sanskrit Deepika (commentary) on 27 Upanishads including
> the 10 principal Upanishads, Gita and Brahma-Sutras.
>
> Of the 27, a few have been published by Anandasrama Sanskrit
> Sansthan, Pune.
>
> I am deligently searching for a copy of his Deepika on the Kata,
> Mundaka, Aithareya, Chandogya and Brihadaranyaka Upanishads, but
> couldn't find them anywhere including Madras Kuppuswamy Research
> Institute, Kanchi International Library at Enathur.
>


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>From msr at c...
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:10:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Shakti Peeth in Jalandhar
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: msr at c...


On Fri, 4 May 2001 08:32:18 -0500, Satish Arigela <sarigela at T...>
wrote:

>> The Vishvamukhi temple dedicated to Tripurmalini
> ^^^^^^^^^
>>Shakti is in Jalandhar.
>
>
>that should be vishnu mukhi,i guess.but i am not very
>sure.
> in Saubhagya Bhaskara while commeting on the nama
> jaalandhara... (i dont remember exact nama)Shri
>Bhaskararaya refers to a name called vishnumukhi.
>
> regards

It is the 378th name, jaalandharasthitaa. saubhaagya bhAskara refers to the
devI in this piiTha as vishhNumukhii. jaalandhara piiTha also has a subtler
meaning indicating to vishuddhi chakra. Considering vishuddhi chakra
corresponds to AkAsha or Space, the name vishva mukhii also makes sense.

Ravi

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>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:14:11 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


Namaste to all,

>On Wed, 9 May 2001 19:43:51 -0400, Bhadraiah Mallampalli
><vaidix at H...> wrote:
>
> >
> >sanAtana dharma is not just a set of rules. I am not saying throw the
>rules
> >to wind, but it is also necessary to know that dharma is a living
>tradition.
> >We gather to learn advaita because we are competent for knowledge, or we
>may
> >be trying to acquire such competence. As we are anyway working with
> >knowledge, why not use it practically to verify the rules we practice?
> >
>
>How do we verify that Agnihotra has to be conducted everyday? How do we
>verify that Jyotishtoma must be performed for one desirous of heaven?
>Advaita doesn't say anything about these because it transcends them. It is
>not meant for people engaged in performance of karma (karma as defined by
>what applies by varna and ashrama).
>
> >
> >There seems to be a misunderstanding that absolute advaita does not
>advise
> >the action to be taken. On the contrary it is very specific about the
> >action.
> >
>
>Could you please elaborate on this - what action (karma) should be
>performed by one engaged in shrvaNa, manana and niddhidhyAsana?
>

I don't mean to interrupt the thread here, but if I may please venture to
clarify on the terminology here -

Action is not always doing/performing something - even not doing anything
can be action. The way I understand it, it is a mano vritti. For example, a
labourer who is used to physical day labour, if asked to just sit in one
place and contemplate on God, or for that instance, on anything, which
doesn't involve action, how long do you think he can do that? Do you think
he is not doing any action? He is expending enormous energy in trying to sit
still without performing any physical action. This is also action. On the
other hand, a jnaani, even though performing all actions just like you and
me still is established in the fact that he is not performing any action,
because he knows he is the self, in which no action, no modifications are
possible. This is what is meant by the Bhagavad Geetha saying - to see
action in inaction and inaction in action.

The upanishadic shloka comes to mind -

bhidyate hR^idaya granthi chchindyante sarva samshayaaH
xIyante chaasya karmaaNi tasmin dR^ishte paraavare

When you reach that ultimate state of seeing Him everywhere, the knot of the
heart is cut asunder, all doubts just vanish, all karma or doings just comes
to a full stop.

Advaita is the ultimate state of universal consciousness, there can be no
action possible at that paaramarthica level. You know what I mean - when the
Self alone exists, who can talk to who, who can hear who etc., etc. Even
the doctrine Advaita, as you and I talk of, teaches us to achieve that
universal consciousness by adhyaaropa apavaada, in other words, the sages
make an assumption that you are in duality, assume you are striving for
THAT, and in the final analysis (if there were any!) all this is negated and
brahman only exists. So, in that sense, advaita encompasses all other
religions, doctrines, including dvaita, vishisTAdvaita, etc. Hence, in my
opinion, it would be almost incorrect to say Advaita advices or postulates
actions ( and specific ones too!).

On the other hand, inaction is impossible in the vyaavahaarica plane. For a
person who is not established in brahman, he/she is constantly engaged in
action - we could only try to make it as nishkaama as possible.

Corrections welcome.

Savithri

> >
> >Even though every jIva has avidya, the "precise" nature of this avidya is
> >different from one being to another. And the "action" taken by each being
>is
> >dictated by the nature of avidya of each being.
> >
>
>How do we know this? Do we percieve any duality when we are in our causal
>state i.e. in deep sleep? Does the shruti say that avidyA (causal state)
>differs from jIvA to jIvA?
>
>ashish
>
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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:56:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: || shrii gaayatrii shaapa vimochanam ||
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


I posted this to ambaa-L quite sometime back. Today while I saw this on
Sanskrit site, I noticed few obvious errors, I have corrected them.

Source of this text is devii bhagavatam. My father introduced this
mantra to me. I really do not know the details and background of these
shaapa-s. The translation of devii bhagavatam I referred to was quite
brief on this topic, as well. I have a book on sandyAvandana published
in 40s or 50s, which has this mantra and it states that one has to say
it as a part of japa.


Ravi




|| shrii gaayatrii shaapa vimochanam.h ||


shaapa muktaa hi gaayatrii chaturvarga phala pradaa |
ashaapa muktaa gaayatrii chaturvarga phalaantakaa ||

OM asya shrii gaaytrii brahmashaapa vimochana mantrasya brahmaa
R^ishhiH | gaayatrii chhandaH | bhukti muktipradaa brahmashaapa
vimochanii gaayatrii shaktiH devataa | brahma shaapa vimochanaarthe
jape viniyogaH ||

OM gaayatrii brahmetyupaasiita yadruupaM brahmavido viduH | taaM
pashyanti dhiiraaH sumanasaaM vaachaamagrataH | OM vedaanta naathaaya
vidmahe hiraNyagarbhaaya dhiimahii | tanno brahma prachodayaat.h | OM
gaayatrii tvaM brahma shaapat.h vimuktaa bhava ||

OM asya shrii vasiShTha shaapa vimochana mantrasya nigraha anugraha
kartaa vasiShTha R^ishhiH | vishvodbhava gaayatrii chhandaH |
vasiShTha anugrahitaa gaayatrii shaktiH devataa | vasiShTha shaapa
vimochanaarthe jape viniyogaH ||

OM sohaM arkamayaM jyotirahaM shiva aatma jyotirahaM shukraH sarva
jyotirasaH asmyahaM | (iti yuktva yoni mudraaM pradarshya gaayatrii
trayaM paditva ) | OM devii gaayatrii tvaM vasiShTha shaapat.h
vimuktaa bhava ||

OM asya shrii vishvaamitra shaapa vimochana mantrasya
nuutana sR^ishhTi kartaa vishvaamitra R^ishhiH |
vaagdehaa gaayatrii chhandaH |
vishvaamitra anugrahitaa gaayatrii shaktiH devataa |
vishvaamitra shaapa vimochanaarthe jape viniyogaH ||

OM gaayatrii bhajaa.nyagni mukhiiM vishvagarbhaaM yadudbhavaaH
devaashchakrire vishvasR^ishhTiM taaM kalyaaNiiM ishhTakariiM
prapadye | yanmukhaannisR^ito akhilaveda garbhaH | shaapa yuktaa
tu gaayatrii saphalaa na kadaachana | shaapat.h uttariita
saa tu mukti bhukti phala pradaa ||

praarthanaa ||

brahmaruupiNii gaayatrii divye sandhye sarasvatii | ajare amare chaiva
brahmayone namo.astute | brahma shaapat.h vimuktaa bhava | vasishhTha
shaapat.h vimuktaa bhava | vishvaamitra shaapat.h vimuktaa bhava ||


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:02:49 -0400
Subject: Tacit knowledge
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


Relatively recently, the corporate world has introduced a new
kind of executive called the Chief Knowledge Officer (CKO) whose job
it is to manage the knowledge that a company may have gained
in its years of existence. Be that as it may, one of the key
things that needs to be done to make knowledge sharing possible
is to codify or represent the knowledge of the experts in some
form that can be absorbed by humans and/or machines. Herein lies
the problem as Paul Quintas, a professor at the OPen University
Business School puts it aptly:
(see http://www.managementfirst.com/articles/quintas_interview.htm)
"The fundamental challenge is to tackle the very nature of knowledge,
including the whole idea of tacit knowledge, knowledge that cannot be
codified in terms of language or even mathematical formulae. A good
analogy is the ability of a concert violinist. You could spend six
months with a concert violinist who describes to you in minute detail
how he or she plays the violin, but there is no way that you could
then stand up and play the violin. You would have to go through an
experiential learning process in order to gain that knowledge."

And what we are talking about so far is only laukika or secular knowledge.
Just imagine how much more difficult it is to codify in language matters
relating to dharma or Atman. Those who read Vedas/VedAnta as if they
were ordinary literature are in deep trouble because they make the
wrong assumption that whatever they understand through the written
word is the whole picture, while in reality it is NOT so. In fact,
the generally implied assumption made by them is that we are so much
more intellectually superior to our ancestors that we can easily grasp
what they codified in language and even point out mistakes in them!
The fate of such people will be like the proverbial "slip" between the
cup and the lip.

Anand

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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Women and Vedic Karmakanda - 1
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:34:34 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


In the light of the present discussion, I am starting a series on the
scriptural sanction on women performing Vedic rites. This is part 1.

Atharvaveda 14.2.20
(Rishi Suryaa Saavitri, Devata Aatmaa)
When the bride worships the Garhapatya Agni, then she may proceed to offer
reverence to the the Pitars and to Sarasvati

Atharvaveda 14.2.23
(Rishi Suryaa Saavitri, Devata Aatmaa)
Spread the mat and place the skin of the antelope. May the progenitor of
children, this lady then sit on that and worship Agni.

Atharvaveda 14.2.26
(Rishi Suryaa Saavitri, Devata Aatmaa)
Of beneficial desires and companion of a good husband, may the lady worship
Agni

Sincerely,
Vishal


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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:55:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: In response to Shri.Ganesh.
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 9 May 2001, Shuba (by way of Shuba swamis at u...) wrote:

> " Why not try actually asking one or more how they put this
> shastric injunction into practice in their lives? "
>
> The above statement is what I would call patronizing.

If you just cling to one line of the manusmrti without considering what it
means in practice and otherwise ignoring evidence you are setting up a
straw man. Naturally you're only going to a certain kind of conclusion.
Was my suggestion that daring? That in a discussion of womens' dharma we
actually ask women about it?

> And who was making a feminist argument?! If I ask about the
> egalitarian nature of Sanatana dharma it somehow gets me
> labelled a feminist?! Thats not a personal attack?
>

You know I've been a "professional arguer" if you will for a long time.
But until the day I die I will never understand what people find
offensive.

According to my online dictionary:

feminist adj : of or relating to or advocating equal rights for women;

That's not an accurate description of your questions? Of all things
*THAT* inocuous word you choose to see as a personal attack????

Anyone can be forgiven for not knowing some advanced sanskrit term but
this is a simple english word in common usage for crying out loud!

> "If you cannot conquer your wants your level of of
> mumukshatvam is 0."
>
> THIS is EXACTLY what I meant by attacking me instead of my POV.
> I will be happy to hear that from my guru, but not from any
> random person in cyber-space whose only exposure to me is via
> this mailing list!
>

Your message was liberally sprinkled with "I want", "I need", "my integral
nature is" are you saying those words don't reflect your point of view?
Why did you say them then? Anyone who has studied one line of Vedanta
knows that such sentiments are the very opposite of mumukshatva. Then why
is it so controversial for me to point that out?

Brace yourself, I'm going to say something else personal: the attitude
you display is appalling. We should strive to be like Bhagavan Dattatreya
who saw the Guru in everything. You can't put pre-conditions on what you
are willing to learn and from whom. It would be like if someones house
was on fire and they refused to believe it unless a fireman said so.

I'll tell you something. I make mistakes from time to time and I'd be
happy to get corrections from anyone, anywhere. In one case related to
our website the corrector called me an idiot in the process. I didn't
particularly like that but did I get upset? No because he was right about
that particular issue! The gain of knowledge and the banishment of
ignorance is always an occasion to rejoice.

> " A jaundiced eye might see this as "blackmail" "
>
> And how does this not count as attacking me? I am at a loss
> here, and I would be happy to hear your (Ganesh's) explanation.
>

Will you also explain to Ganesh why you accused the Rshis of blackmail?

jaundiced: adj. showing or affected by prejudice or envy or distaste;

You actually said a number of other things I didn't care for but I chose
to respond to the substance of your arguments for the most part because
we have to have a little thicker skin if we earnestly seek the truth. It
would be very difficult to debate rationally if we constantly got offended
by everything.

So let's make understanding the top priority and egos second. I notice
you still haven't responded to any of the substantive questions I asked
you.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:57:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 9 May 2001, Savithri Devaraj wrote:

> Namaste Jaldhar,
>
> I had honestly intended to stay out of this debate, but here it goes since
> you directly question me. I know you will ask why? because, I see no benefit
> in flame wars and intellectual one upmanship.

Is that what you think we're doing here? flame wars and one upmanship?
Only by asking questions and rigorously analysing the opinions of others
and above all ourselves, can we ever hope to progress.

 Hence, this will be my last
> post on the topic. Spiritual matters are very subjective and left to the
> person and their Guru to decide the right course.
>

Many things appear mystifying and subjective to those who don't fully
comprehend the issues. As the knowledge increases one sees there is not
so much subjectivity after all.

There is a story (by R.K. Narayana I think) about a village in th 60's.
There is a boy who hears on the radio about the moon landings. But when
he tries to tell people, they all think he is crazy. Everone knows you
can't walk on the moon! The villagers were 100% sincere yet 100% wrong.
That's the problem in many of these debates. False premises even if
thought about rationally, give rise to false conclusions.

> I have always admired your zeal and fervor in keeping up the sanatana
> dharma, kudos to you!, but i am sorry to say even a million Jaldhars will
> not be able to reverse the circumstances and take us back to the vedic ages.

So then you've given up? If the Vedic life is dead why are you bothering
to drag around its corpse? Better to take up some other religion or
atheism or play videogames. Anything rather than waste ones time that
way.

Maybe rationally you are right and it is futile. But the faith that I
have had the privilege to inherit tells me it not. The world constantly
goes through changes. Right now it is the Kaliyuga and Dharma is at an
ebb. But after that will come another satyayuga. Probably not in my
lifetime. Maybe in 300 years or 10,000 years. What does it matter? What
our sages forbid me to do is to fall into despair. Despair is evil.

The Vedic age is today. Right now there are thousands of people who are
trying to live a dharmic life. I was able to reverse my circumstances and
I don't think I'm especially gifted so if I can do it so can anyone else.

One of the duties of Brahmans is to learn dharma but this not just for our
own sake but in order to help all beings. How can we wash our hands of
our brothers and sisters saying "Oh they are not interested. They will
never understand?" So I'm going to have to keep on insisting on the truth
even if it is irrational and pointless. What else can I do?

> In looking at your rebuttals from a few years, I have an advice for you, if
> you care to heed it. Please mellow down a little and say the same thing a
> little better without personal attack.

I'll try but people find the craziest things offensive. The audience has
to work with me on this.

> Also, you don't HAVE to feel
> responsible to have the final say in all arguments and defend your views at
> all costs. I think that would only tense you up and make you respond
> haughtily sometimes.
>

Yes I do have to. What you refer to as my opinions are those our Acharyas
have had since forever. Isn't that what we're here for? This is the
Advaita Vedanta list. Yes if I were a dinner party guest in your home,
such stridency would be gauche but here it's the main point.

I think it would be scarier if people were not passionate about the issues
being discussed here. Then we would truly know the Vedic life was doomed.

>
> Certainly not, But why is this one fault (if fault it were!) such a big
> deal, worth arguing about for days so emotionally when blatant
> non-adherences are obvious in broad daylight by our bothers, day in and day
> out, and they still think they are responsible for safeguarding the dharma
> of all???
>

If the police caught a thief who stole $100, would it be an acceptable
defence for him to say "let me go. There is another thief who stole $1000
and you haven't caught him yet"?

I'm in no way singling out women. If you know a man who needs a few
blasts of the cannon, point me to him. There are several male members of
this list who have started learning sandhyavandana and the like. I can't
say for sure it's something I said which inspired them but I hope I
helped.

Btw, another practical problem is that for women it is comparatively
easier to fulfill their dharmic obligations to some degree than it is for
men. Even if they are willing, The facilities may not exist yet. This is
going to be an important issue for the Hindu community to face in upcoming
years.

> I am not well versed in the BrahmasUtras (surprise!). Is this your
> assumption that it applies to women too, Or, does it clearly say that??
>

The main topic is that the Shudras cannot learn. One of the reasons given
in 1.3.36 is because they do not undergo upanayana they are not qualified
to learn. Women also do not undergo upanayana (I've already explained
why in an earlier post) so the same reason applies mutatis mutandis to them.
Remember the sutras strive for the utmost brevity so if there is no need
to duplicate things they won't.

Shankaracharyas' bhashya on this sutra is very brief and he does not
explicitly make the connection but Shri Appaya Dikshita does in his
Parimala on it. In many places in the shastras women are considered
"Shudravat" for this precise reason.

> >This has come up in the list before if you recall. Being a Rshi means
> >being a mantradrashta. It implies nothing about the moral or spiritual
> >condition of the seer.
>
> In my opinion, your conclusion is wrong!
>

Lucky for me my conclusion is based on facts not opinions :-) In the
Mimamsa Sutras,the apaurusheyanyaya deals with the eternality of the
Vedas. In 1.1.27, the opponent makes the argument that the Vedas cannot be
eternal because we have the names of the mortals who composed them.
Maharshi Jaiminis' reply is that they are the seers not the authors of the
mantras. The Jaiminiyanyayamalavistara of Madhavacharya (who as a a
sannyasi was Swami Vidyaranya) says about this exactly the arguments I was
making. The Rshis are mantradrashtas and no agency of any kind can be
inferred on just the name.

> So what?? Her husband was her Guru and she learnt brahmavidya from him. That
> doesn't mean her knowledge is in anyway lower than another brahmavaadin's.
> Or, does it?? Or, do you mean to say we can do vedaaabhyaasa and attain
> brahmajnaana from our husbands??
>

Actually I meant something quite different. That same Yajnavalkya who
taught Brahmavidya to his wife also said in his smrti she could not study
the Vedas. This implies:

1. Prohibiting women was not done out of any bias towards them
2. Learning the Vedas is not necessary for women to achieve mukti

>
> >Exactly. So why do anadhikaris have to study the Vedas if they can get
> >the same effect from studying the Gita?
>
> Why do you read more than there is to it? My suggestion was that Geetha is a
> pre-requisite for the attainment of sadhana chatushtayaa.
>

That was a reply to the whole thread not to your words in particular. I'm
establishing there is no need or obligation for women to study the Vedas.
Thus if some want to, it is only because of a selfish desire.

> By the way, what do you mean by study? Is reciting, or perusing to find out
> what it has, the same as study? Not so, in my opinion.
>

Reciting is definitely study. The obligation for svadhyaya is met by
reciting regardless of one knows the meaning. But it is far better to
know the meanings as well. That's the ideal to aim for.

What about reading a translation or some sort of paraphrase? I don't
know, it's probably ok. But again I have to ask why one would feel the
need to do that except out of curiosity.

> For example take the veda vaakhyas - "satyaM vada, dharmaM chara", or even
> "maatR^i devo bhava, pitR^i devo bhava, aacharya devo bhava, athithi devo
> bhava" You know as well as I do, everyone teaches this to their kids at
> home. Now, should mothers not say this?, not hear this? not even follow
> this? Are all women exempted from following this? What about the veda
> shlokas "sahanaavavatu..." or "na tatra suuryo bhati....". These are
> commonly recited everyday in most households and most kids know them. What
> about them??
   Is it ok to recite just 2 to 5 vakhyas from the vedas, and not
> 50 or 60??

The Vedas contain many words which are completely the same as standard
Sanskrit. The words themselves are special, that's not what makes them
holy. It is the confluence of words and meanings and place and person.
Like with a murti. During the Ganesh chaturthi a murti is made and
worshipped with great reverance and fervor. After the utsava is over it
is dumped in the river. The holiness is not due to some intrinsic
property of the form but due to the context. You can find the Arya
Samajist versions of the Vedas on sale at ST depots in India. Has that
caused a mass revival of Vedic religion? Shorn of its cultural context,
the Vedas are just musty old books.

If a person is misusing the mantras they will have no effect.

> This is too.. far.... fetched. You have a right to your opinion just as I
> have a right to mine. Religious and spiritual feelings are highly
> subjective, and in my opinion no one can condemn any other's expressions.
>

You only feel that way because you haven't studied history. "Modern"
varieties of Hinduism have been around for 200 years now. They haven't
shown anywhere near the staying power of traditional beliefs. There are
whole fields, sociology, anthropology, demographics, which deal with how
environment affects belief and vice-versa. This is also evidence we
cannot ignore for true understanding. Not being a professional in those
fields I may have gotten the evidence wrong and we can discuss that but we
can't just sweep it under the rug.

> >Another thing that bothers me about this thread is why when we are talking
> >of "scripture" only the Vedas or Manusmrti are being mentioned? Women
> >have their own spiritual practices which have been passed down from time
> >immemorial. Do they count for nothing? For instance Sunday, Nrsimha
> >chaturdashi, my mother and wife did a particular thing (Sorry I'm not yet
> >at liberty to say what it was and why just yet..) My mother performed the
> >vidhi, my father wasn't even there and I watched from the couch. It was
> >not Vedic (In fact my mother took pains to point that out) but did that
> >mean anyone took it any less seriously?
>
> Gotcha! so, you are also nonvedic sometimes!!
>

Ok but so what? Our dharma is built on three pillars, shruti, smrti, and
shistachara. It is only if there is a conflict that one is considered
superior or inferior to the other. The classic example given is of Holi.
As you know it is a popular festival especially in North India. But it is
not mentioned in the Vedas so the question asked in Mimamsa is is it
"Vedic"? The answer is yes, because it doesn't conflict with any Vedic
injunction and it has received the sanction of wise elders and been passed
down for generations. In the same way, womens dharma should be taken as
seriously and reverentially as an Ashvamedha. If done sincerely, it will
have the same amount of punya.

> >
> >This view of "scriptures" you're suggesting in fact says that the measure
> >of a woman is in how much she copies a man. It ignores the traditions
> >women have passed down from generation to generation just because they
> >were maybe not written down or maybe not in Sanskrit. This to me is more
> >anti-woman than anything the astikas can come up with.
>
> So, you have some preconcieved ideas about a woman, and anything anybody
> does against your ideas is anti-woman!
>

"my ideas" as you call them are based on observations of the actual
practices, of actual women. They have been practised thus for many
generations. You are suggesting something new so the onus is on *you* to
explain why the change. So far all anyone has come up with is "I want
to." For the purposes of Dharma, that isn't an acceptable answer.

> >Unabashedly or not, doesn't that bother you? I'm curious as to how given
> >the sentiments expressed in this thread, such a comment can just pass by.
> >
>
> NO, absolutely not, and why should it bother you? It has been known for
> generations that women are more caring and capable of loving and nurturing
> kids better than men. Is this news to you? or, do you want the men to get
> the crown in this also?? Remember, I am just refuting your charge here - it
> is not my contention that women are better or men are better. I was just
> expressing a satisfaction that I had derived in nurturing my family.
>

Good but look at the way you put it. When some people said women are
"essentially" more materialistic or "essentially" weaker, there was strong
objection and rightly so. Yet you are saying that women are "essentially"
more caring and loving. Replacing male chauvinism with female chauvinism
doesn't strike me as being progress. Why does it bother me? Because if
men and women can't learn to live and work together as a team we are
doomed as a society, as a species even. The idea that 50% of humanity are
less capable of nurturing and loving may be true right now but it is
alarming. Perhaps an inability to nurture is the reason for soaring
divorce rates etc. It affects everyone. Love is not a competition where
if one person gets the crown another one loses it so if men are lacking in
this regard, shouldn't we do something about it?

> Sorry, but don't you see, I stopped the vishNusahasranaama postings inspite
> of your coaxings?

No one is forced to post. People have their reasons and I don't begrudge
them that. What I specifically would like to know is if the reason for
silence is fear of the answers one might get? That question hasn't been
answered.

> Or, is it about you that you encourage women on the list
> to do dharmic acts??

Partly yes. I want to make it very clear that objecting to women learning
Vedas is not part of some patriarchal conspiracy to deprive women of a
chance to participate in Dharma. The issue is what form the participation
should take.

> Yes, Jaldhar, I know a lot of people don't voice their opinions because the
> contributing few (read - one) are too boisterous and oppresive in their
> opinions.

That's interesting. A few years ago Deborah Tannen wrote a book called
"You Just Don't Understand" (iirc) in which she talked about different
communication styles and how they affect life. For instance she said
women were less likely to raise their hands in class even if they knew the
correct answer. Or they were less likely to get promotions because they
didn't speak up at business meetings. Men on the other hand were more
likely to recklessly give out their opinions whether asked for or not.
This is not biological but cultural. (If I am a loudmouth it is because
my mother is one too.) The consequences are that shy people were more likely
to interpret others as being antagonistic or boisterous. Aggressive
people were more likely to interpret others as being dumb or unsure.
Nowadays there are courses to help train shy people in public speaking so
they can get over this handicap. And aggressive personalities are taught
to read the cues shy people send more carefully.

I try and put this into practice. Before sending several posts in this
thread, I edited them or deleted them altogether. But people get offended
or scared for the oddest reasons and there is a point beyond which it
isn't my problem any more. It is pointless to cater to weak-minded
people. It is better to help make them stronger.

> As a list co-owner, if you really want more people to participate
> and a healthy flow of arguments, someone will have to cool down and back off
> a little.
>

Alternatively someone will have to develop a spine and speak up a little.
I at least don't measure the success of the list by quantity but rather by
quality. We are interested in Advaita Vedanta. Anything that contributes
to the understanding of Advaita Vedanta is good. Anything that is
contrary to it is bad. And we must be doing something right because the
usage of the list and website has increased for every month I've been
keeping statistics.

>
> Some of what I have said seems too personal, but that was just to expose how
> personal you were.

I am personal. What's wrong with that? Why do we ask new members for an
introduction? Surely you should be able to join a mailing list with
having to give out your life story right? But we are not here for some
dry academic exercise. Advaita Vedanta is foremost a thing to be
practised not just talked about. If it is a business relationship we want
we can all post our rates and start charging each other for answering
questions. But we help each other with answers and advice for free
because we are (or should be) friends. Friends don't let friends remain
ignorant.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:58:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 9 May 2001, Vishal Agarwal wrote:

> VA: That is so true. The above adhikarana has no reference to women at all
> and attempts to bring the adhikaara of women into this adhikarana is
> utsutra.
>

See my response in my reply to Savithris post. We are not literalists.
Inference is also a valid method for understanding.

> VA: Savirthriji is right. Rishis are not merely Mantradrashta. Yaska adds:
> "sakshatkrtadharmaa" in defining Rishis.
>

That says nothing about why they established Dharma or what was it about
them that made them sakshis and not anyone else. It is a cardinal
Mimamsaka principle that Dharma has no "reason" it is an end in itself.

> VA: I would like to know if there is even ONE passage in ALL the Samhitas,
> Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads (not in the later, apocryphal text like
> Nrsimhmapurva Tapani), Kalpasutras, Purvottaramimamsa, chhanda, nirukta,
> vyakarana, siksa... wherein women are debarred from studying the Vedas.

I would like to know if there is even one passage that in all the
Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Upanishads, Kalpasutras,
purvottaramimamsa, chhanda, nirukta, vyakarana, siksa wherein mandirs are
mentioned? Or Diwali? or Arati? Yet these are all considered "Vedic"
today. You are setting up a straw man, is it any wonder you come up with
only a certain set of conclusions? The Vedas are not "scriptures" in the
same way the Bible or Koran are. The method of interpretation is more
subtle than a simple-minded literalism. First and foremost our source of
Dharma is tradition. Whereas other religions are named after the person
or God who created them, ours is called Smarta, we are the followers of
tradition as a whole. A good deal of our religious practices today are
not directly word for word mentioned in the Vedic texts. However they can
be deduced from the Vedas by means of systematic canons of interpretation.

Is there any evidence historical or textual, that women studied Vedas in
the 19th century?, in the 15th? in the 7th?, in the 5th century B.C.?
There isn't. If perhaps by chance there was ever a tradition of women
studying, it went extinct millenia ago. We have libraries full of
commentaries. If ever there was such a view, wouldn't atleast one
commentator have mentioned it? Even just for the purpose of refuting it?
The silence is deafening. From this we can either conclude there has been
a vast male conspiracy that remained airtight for millenia and been
abbetted by every single woman, or alternatively it's a complete
non-issue..

Your vision of a putative past is entirely mythical. The one I'm
describing is being practised right here and right now. There are
Agnihotris today you can see, talk to and poke with a stick. We are the
spiritual descendents of those people not of myths. The only reason
anyone in 2001 actually cares whether the Vedas are practised or not is
because of those people not myths. So please consider the implications of
what you're doing. You are making a break with the past and appealing to
the past to do so. That's illogical. Can a culture based on such shaky
foundations hope to survive for very long?

> Please do not quote Manu because the text is highly corrupt. Infact, Kulluka
> clearly quotes additional verses (in some manuscripts available to him)
> wherein agnihotra etc. is enjoined upon women.

I have the Manvarthamuktavali. Could you tell me where this is?

> And I could quote
> contradictory passages (eg. from Katyayana Dharmashastra) wherin husbands
> who prevent their wives from karmakanda are censured.

Please do. I've only heard of the Katyayanasmrti by name. Which is
another problem. What is the role of this Katyayanasmriti? Manusmrti
corrupt or not is repeatedly quoted by Shankaracharya and many other
people throughout the centuries. Where has the Katyayanasmrti been used?
Which nibandhakaras have quoted it in this context? Same with the
Nrsimhapurvatapini, "apocryphal" or not (and it is less deserving of that
title than the Vajrasuchika you mentioned before) it is what has actually
been used and quoted through the ages.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:00:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Women and Vedic Karmakanda - 1
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 10 May 2001, Vishal Agarwal wrote:

> In the light of the present discussion, I am starting a series on the
> scriptural sanction on women performing Vedic rites. This is part 1.
>
> Atharvaveda 14.2.20
> (Rishi Suryaa Saavitri, Devata Aatmaa)
> When the bride worships the Garhapatya Agni, then she may proceed to offer
> reverence to the the Pitars and to Sarasvati
>
> Atharvaveda 14.2.23
> (Rishi Suryaa Saavitri, Devata Aatmaa)
> Spread the mat and place the skin of the antelope. May the progenitor of
> children, this lady then sit on that and worship Agni.
>
> Atharvaveda 14.2.26
> (Rishi Suryaa Saavitri, Devata Aatmaa)
> Of beneficial desires and companion of a good husband, may the lady worship
> Agni
>

I'm afraid all you've proven is that women may have the right to certain
specific actions during the course of Vedic rituals. There is nothing
controversial about that. Even today the bride does certain things during
the marriage ceremonies. For that matter even the Shudras have a certain
ability to perform Vedic rites (as in the case of the Rathakara or the
Nishadhasthapati) but specific instances do not translate to a general
rule.

Btw, does the kalpasutra of the Atharvaveda mention the specifics of how
to do these rites? If so please post so any female list member from an
Atharvavedi family who owns an antelope skin can practice her dharma.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:10:28 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>>As we are anyway working with knowledge, why not use it practically >>to
>>verify the rules we practice?

>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote..
>How do we verify that Agnihotra has to be conducted everyday? How do we
>verify that Jyotishtoma must be performed for one desirous of heaven?
>Advaita doesn't say anything about these because it transcends them. >It is
>to meant for people engaged in performance of karma (karma as >defined by
>what applies by varna and ashrama).

Here is a quote from kausItaki brAHmaNa re: agnihotra.

Shruti:
K.B.ii.8 "..The agni here offers itself in the rising sun, sUryA when
setting offers itself in the agni at evening; the night also offers
itself in the day, the day in night; the expiration also offers in
inspiration, the inspiration in expiration. These six sacrifice
themselves, each in other; he who knows these these six in the
sacrificer, by him even if he sacrifices not is offering made; and if
he does sacrifice twice is offering made by him who knows thus. If
indeed even from a very small portion, knowing thus, he offers the
agnihotra, these two offerings of his the gods accept, and he whose
(offerings) the gods once eat, from that time he is immortal.
Composed of truth and immortality does he become who knows thus. Just
as is the offering of a man who has faith as his deity, who speaks
the truth, and is full of fervous, such is the offering of him who,
knowing thus, offers the agnihotra. "

Logic:
KB ii.8 explains agnihotra rite, why it must be done, and what it means. It
says by knowing the meaning of agnihotra one can achieve immortality. It
also explains agnihotra as a never ending interaction of three sets of
entities two each: inhalation & exhalation, agni & sUrya, day and night. By
knowing how one of them invests in the other one transcends both of them.

Experience: From other parts of Shruti as well as prANAyAma it can be
observed that agni is no other than speech which is no other than "problem".
And sUrya is no other than another divine force we all depend on in our
daily lives, to solve our problems. sUrya is the "solution". This duality of
problem and solution also invests in each other, and by knowing this one
transcends both.

When brAhmaNa is saying one becomes immortal by understanding agnihotra, it
must be true. According to Adi Sankara there are three requirements to
assess truth: It must be as per Shruti, it must be agreeable to logic, and
must be confirmed by personal experience. (Elsewhere Ai. Br. says you can
temporarily accept somebody else's testimony as truth, at least for the
purpose of an argument.) As we have all three requirements above, it can be
decided as truth. That should answer your question about agnihotra. We still
don't know the nature of agniSToma which is a more elaborate ritual. We need
guidance of knowledgeable people.

>>There seems to be a misunderstanding that absolute advaita does not
>> >>advise the action to be taken. On the contrary it is very specific
>> >>about the action.

>Could you please elaborate on this - what action (karma) should be
>performed by one engaged in shrvaNa, manana and niddhidhyAsana?

I will go to hell if I say advaita leads to action or there is action in
advaita.

I was trying to contradict a view which had become popular that advaita is
something up there aloof, and we are left here doing our karmas down here in
this world, and there is no scope for advaita in daily life. There was a
famous book on six darshanas by a high level person which mentions this type
of notion.

When we have hierarchies of relative brahmans, movement from one brahman to
the next higher is "action". At the same time it is not really action
because it liberates us from bondage. The correct word may be some vikarma
or akarma as per gIta, I am not clear about sanskrit (need help!). I will
write more about this 'action' in the next post.

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:36:26 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>K.B.ii.8 .. he who knows these these six in the sacrificer, by him even if
>he >sacrifices not is offering made; ...and is full of fervor, ...

Sorry about the typo: read fervous as fervor.

When shruti says "he who knows these six (yajnas) in the sacrificer", by the
phrase "in the sacrificer" shruti means "in the body/mind of the sacrificer"
which is a direct reference to prANAyAma.

This also explains that any one who knows this, even a woman or one who is
not qualified for agnihotra (as per local laws), is deemed to have done the
agnihotra.

Well, to become immortal they have to also actually do it in practice, to
make it count as two sacrifices. But isn't it an over kill?

Best Regards
Bhadraiah
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>From Shuba <swamis at u...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:04:56 -0400
Subject: A quick poll
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Shuba <swamis at u...>


Namaste,

I apologize for digressing from the main threads.

Could those list members who don't find Shri.Jaldhar's form of
expression offensive or an hindrance to their learning please
respond and say so?

Many of you have responded to me personally concurring with my
reaction, but would the rest of you please step up and make
your voices heard?

A lot of your personal responses made me think I was hardly
alone, but I am willing to be corrected by the majority. Very
few people who wrote to me personally were willing to post
their opinions directly to the list possibly for the fear of
launching yet another virulent tirade. So may be those of you
who _don't_ think of it as such would post openly and say so?

I am trying to make a decision whether I belong on this list or
not, and if majority concur with Shri.Jaldhar, its obviously me
who is in the wrong place. Please oblige with your responses.

Thank you,
-Shuba


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To laugh often and much; To win the respect of intelligent
people and the affection of children; To earn the
appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false
friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others; To
leave the world a bit better; To know even one life has
breathed easier because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)



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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Women and Vedic Karmakanda - 2
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:16:38 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>From Katyayana Srautasutra, chapter I (Paribhasa Nirupanam)

1.1.7 strii aviveshaat |
Women are also entitled to perform Vedic sacrifices because there is no
injunction in Sruti that only men can perform Vedic sacrifices

1.1.8 darsanaat cha |
And there is a Sruti to this effect. Eg. mekhalayaa yajamaanam diksayati
yoktreNa patniim (Taittiriya Samhita 6.1.3)

Ref:
Translation by H. G. Ranade

The text does not specify that women can perform only this right or that,
the statements of Katyayana are very general.

Regards

Vishal

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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Women and Vedic Karmakanda - 3
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:35:03 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>From Purva Mimamsa Shastra of Jaimini Maharshi, Chapter VI, Pada I

6.1.6 (Purvapaksha)- Aitishayana Muni says that by virtue of the fact that
Vedic injunctions are addressed in masculine gender, it is appropriate for
men alone to perform Vedic rites

6.1.7 (Purvapaksha continued) Moreover, by virtue of a mention of that
(masculine gender), there is a text which lays down the sin on (the sex) of
the unborn foetus not being known.

6.1.8 (Siddhanta): But, says Badarayana, the masculine gender is used in the
Veda to denote mankind in general. Therefore, women is automatically
included in injunctions in masculine gender.

6.1.9 (Siddhanta continued): Moreover, being enjoined by the Sruti, the
right of woman to sacrifice is established.

6.1.10 (Purvapaksha): Yajnas are done by material wealth and men alone
possess material wealth. Women are sold and purchased during wedding and
therefore are bereft of any property, they are at the same level as property
itself. Hence, only men can perform sacrifices.

6.1.11 (Purvapaksha continued) Likewise, there is Vedic text "she, though
purchased by her husband, lives with others"

6.1.12 (Purvapaksha continued): Moreover, women is meant for men, and is his
object of enjoyment. So how can she perform Vedic ritual?

6.1.13 (Siddhanta): But indeed women can perform Vedic ritual because she
also desires the fruit of the sacrifice just as men do

6.1.14 (Sidhanta continued): Besies, a woman is always connected with the
wealth that might even belong to her husband because they are joint owners

6.1.15 (Siddhanta): The so called sale of woman during her wedding is only
symbolic, of ritual signficance alone and women cannot really be sold or
purchased

6.1.16 (Siddhanta) The Vedas show that women have independent existence and
possession of wealth. So they cannot be debarred from Vedic rites.

6.1.17: (Siddhanta): But, when a husband and wife possess wealth together,
they should perform only one ceremony/ritual jointly. i.e. they should not
perform separate rites

6.1.18: (Siddhanta): And there is also a text indicating the unity of wife
and husband (Taittiriya Samhita 6.2.1.1)

6.1.19: (Purvapaksha): But even if the purchase of women is symbolic, she
loses possession of property in a marraige by virtue of that same symbolism.

6.1.20 (Siddhanta): No. Her right to rites is affirmed because she also
possesses the desire for fruit.

6.1.21 (Siddhanta): And Vedic text actually shows that she obtains the
fruit of the Vedic rites (Taittiriya Samhita 3.7.5.11)

Hope this gives an idea of the view of Mimamsakas on the right of women in
Vedic rites.

Sincerely,

Vishal

PS: The above are not literal translations but paraphrases.



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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Application of advaita (Was Decaying of Hindu Varna Dharma)
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:37:05 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


bhavatI Savithri Deveraj,

>Advaita is the ultimate state of universal consciousness, there can be >no
>action possible at that paaramarthica level. You know what I mean - >when
>the Self alone exists, who can talk to who, who can hear who >etc., etc.
>Even the doctrine Advaita, as you and I talk of, teaches >us to achieve
>that universal consciousness by adhyaaropa apavaada, in >other words, the
>sages make an assumption that you are in duality, >assume you are striving
>for THAT, and in the final analysis (if there >were any!) all this is
>negated and brahman only exists. So, in that >sense, advaita encompasses
>all other religions, doctrines, including >dvaita, vishisTAdvaita, etc.
>Hence, in my opinion, it would be almost >incorrect to say Advaita advices
>or postulates actions ( and specific >ones too!).

Sorry about the wording, I didn't mean advaita leads to action, but I really
mean advaita philosophy in general is action oriented... again sorry please
don't read action here..! If you insist I will take out an equal verbal
revenge on everyone else :-)

One more time, the problem is this: We are now in duality, but in the final
analysis it is only advaita. How do we jump from here to there?

Or let me put it otherway round: If every thing is advaita, how does this
duality come in? Why can't everybody do everything equally (women and
shudras doing sandhya vandana)? Why do we have to do things in a particular
way "as told by shruti"? Why is shruti so specific about certain actions?

>Sri Ashish Chandra wrote.. ...Truly speaking, Advaita is more about
>practice and most of us on >this list are only engaged in furthering our
>knowledge of this system >as opposed to faithfully practising it, which is
>meant strictly for >one possessing the saadhanaa chaatushtayam, which in
>most cases >applies to Sannyaasis alone. As far as Advaita is concerned, it
>does >not teach anything new about how dharma is to be practiced...

We can get picky and ask how can there by any "practice" or "sAdhana" even
by sanyAsis in advaita or to achieve advaita? But I wouldn't do this though
:-) I know it is just a figure of speech!

The questioner means that the dharma that we practice is very well santioned
by the shrutis, but advaita has nothing to say about the dharma.

Sri Subramanian's quote about pot and clay is enough to explain that advaita
is every where you want to see, because all this is only existence
(advaita). So it must be possible to find advaita in action also, though you
may not find action in advaita.

We still have to explain how a sAdhaka could "jump" from this mundane
existence to that advaita, and we should also make sure we don't make
advaita itself trivial by saying everything is already advaita, so why do we
need this message board?

Question: advaita is present in every action as clay is to be found in pot,
why do you say it is to be found in specific actions?

Answer: If you have a radio receiver, you can hear all kinds of manmade
noises like radio stations. All this noise is the product of avidya of human
beings, call it WCBS radio or AkAshvANi. But if you have a sensitive
equipment you can also hear a 3Hz cosmic hum, which is not man-made, which
pervades the whole universe, and the energy content of this radiation is so
immeasurable in quantity and it is potentially capable of dissolution of
this whole creation any day or time! There is a specific noise that is
surely divine, and belongs to the creator. Rest of the man-made noises are
also divine in the sense they are also transformations of the original 3Hz
noise or the ancient stellar material which make up our present day earth.

In the same way in ourselves, we have many mad-made thoughts and actions
full of avidya. But this avidya is merely a transformation of the ancient
divine components of thoughts & actions which speak of nothing other than
advaita (call it speech, manas or prANa), and these ancient divine
components of thought & action are called shruti.

Ofcourse I admit, it is lot of hard work. We can't just say every thing we
talk is shruti, even as we loosely say everything is advaita.

Best regards
Bhadraiah
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>From "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: A quick poll
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:58:03 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bhadraiah Mallampalli" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


bhavati Shuba,

Every one must decide such matters an individual and no group decisions are
needed. I just quit a different list in disgust because some people were
trying to create groups in a list consisting of independent scholars, each
having their own opinion.

The rules of this list were specific, if you haven't read them before, that
the decision of list administrators is final. I don't there is provision for
polls. The list admins may consult any knowledgeable person if "they" need
to. I see no action is needed from you or any one apart from your
willingness to stay or not, or to read from outside if you wish to.

I was hesitent to join this list 8 months ago due to serious personal
problems (may be as much serious as yours), then I decided to join in April.
These things change from time to time, and you are the final authority what
you want to do.

Regards
Bhadraiah

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Tacit knowledge
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> And what we are talking about so far is only laukika or secular knowledge.
> Just imagine how much more difficult it is to codify in language matters
> relating to dharma or Atman. Those who read Vedas/VedAnta as if they
> were ordinary literature are in deep trouble because they make the
> wrong assumption that whatever they understand through the written
> word is the whole picture, while in reality it is NOT so. In fact,
> the generally implied assumption made by them is that we are so much
> more intellectually superior to our ancestors that we can easily grasp
> what they codified in language and even point out mistakes in them!
> The fate of such people will be like the proverbial "slip" between the
> cup and the lip.

How true.

What the Vedas want to explain is something that is unknown to us (now). Words
and meanings are always together. (vAkartAviva sumpruktau, vAkarta
pratibaddhayE)

If you know a concept/meaning you know the word too. But if we don't know
something and if somebody has to explain it, then he cannot use words that we
do not know - in which case we will not understand. He has to use only words
that we know. What we know have their own meanings which is known.

So we see how difficult a task it can be. Vedas use known words, words that
are used in common parlance to explain something that not known. Which only
means it needs to be understood differently than the simple translation which
we already know.

It is because something known has to be understood differently that we need a
Guru who can lead us (like shAkhAyAm chandra:) to understand the unknown from
the known. Since different Gurus can interpret it differently, the need arises
for a sampradAyavit.

Thanks for bringing it out Sri AHji.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: A quick poll
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Your mails come with reply-to set to your personal email address as opposed to
advaita-l for rest of us, which might be the reason why you got so many
responses directly to your personal mail box.

Here is an example (your posting):