srikrishna_ghadiyaram at YAHOO.COM
Wed Nov 20 16:03:00 CST 2002
Hari Om !!
--- "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at BRAINCELLS.COM> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Srikrishna Ghadiyaram wrote:
> > How do you know that the "masses" do not have
> > ?
> First of all I do not believe in "masses" This is a
> and elitist leftist term. There are all kinds of
> people and lumping them
> altogether into an undifferentiated lump will not
> lead to any useful
"Masses" are those who can be "lumped" together with
no differentiation for their views and opinions in a
society; those who are not well informed; who do not
have capacity to analyse and arrive at their own
conclusions and implement them. They are essential for
"some" to get best selfish benefits from the society
and its resources.
> And most people do have practical problems yes but
> they get on with it
> and make do the best they can. It is only a certain
> type who will just
> agonize and wring their hands about how hard life
This is what we are addressing. It is not a matter of
what an individual does. It should be a NORM in the
society that everyone is entitled to the same respect,
opportunity and growth. No group by caste, creed,
money power, connections should scuttle others out of
their priority/opportunity. I am not advocating that
every body should become a priest and preach others.
What I am saying is that the need of a religion is for
a society. Let us not neglect that and treat all
people alike with no-discrimination.
> > Did you ask them.
> Of course!
> > Are you a social
> > scientist/researcher ?
> Shouldn't one be a social scientist by the mere fact
> of living in society.
Yes, it is important. But, how large is that society
that I associate. Is it a large enough sample, is the
> I try to be a keen observer of the life around me.
> I think it should be
> fairly obvious whether people are having problems or
> >What is the "Pramana" for it ?
> Ones own eyes and ears?
> > Do not just imagine, or ascribe your own limited
> > knowledge as a "scriptural" utterance. Show us the
> > proof.
> Most of the people I associate with on a day to day
> basis are recent
> immigrants from Gujarat. Typically they are not
> scholars or well to do.
> They don't know English that well and don't have
> professional jobs.
> They do factory work or are shopkeepers or do other
> menial labor. Yet
> they have a fervor to practice Dharma to the best of
> their ability which
> is awe-inspiring. And many of their children
> despite being born in
> America are equally devout. And I know assimiliated
> atheists too. In
> India also my firends and relatives run the gamut
> from sophisticated
> urbanites to villagers.
Immigrants from Gujarat into US are not at any
disadvantage on material pursuits. I am more concerned
about the backward castes and scheduled castes and
tribes of India who live in ignorance of the modern
world and in poverty and filth. They have no
opportunity and say in the society. I studied in a Jr.
college where I had some students from remote tribal
villages. Though I am not a compassionate and
accomodative individual, I know how backward they were
with present day society. I know they have a heart; I
lived with them. These are the people exploited by the
politicians and religious goons.
> So yes I'm well aware of the realities in my
> > If you believe, it is "illiteracy" that is the
> > of the problem, then let the Sankaracharyas
> > it. Ofcourse, you may comeup with a new definition
> > "illiteracy".
> Why dump it all on the Shankaracharyas? The state
> of society is our
> problem and responsibility as much as theirs.
We are not dumping on Sankaracharyas. But, India is a
society based on Religion, predominantly. I do not
mean to say that they are not doing a great service.
Yes, we are obviously a part in the problem and
> > Infact, because of literacy only that these masses
> > have started agitating against the in-human
> > given to them, and is being given. We do not need
> > religion which can not treat a human being like a
> > human being. Do not look for literacy which
> > the "religious outlook" as you "want" it alone.
> I am a partisan of the path our Sages have set for
> us since time
> immemorial. I want nothing more and nothing less.
> And I refuse to be
> hijacked by politicians of either the left or the
Yes, there are present day teachers who are saying
that the view of the sages of yore is mis-interpreted
now. It seems so, because there is in-human treatment
in the society which all of us do in varying degrees,
including those who advocate for their cause.
> > You can not just be sercastic to prove that you
> > right. I know your scholarly abilities and you can
> > understand what Sri jagannath has said while
> > to "Times have changed"
> The point is we cannot fall prey to a nostalgia for
> some lost Golden Age
> when everything was easy. Even during Rama Rajya
> there was a Ravana.
> In the old days, life was easy in some ways and hard
> in others. Today
> life is easy in some ways and hard in others. We
> are not prisoners of
> time. _We_ make it. _We_ change it.
> > For all the advaitic dialectic that you can employ
> > terms of primary meaning and secondary meaning,
> > fight the Visishtaadwaitins and Dwaitins, and
> > other interpretations of the Sruthi, the sentence
> > "Times have changed" IN THE CONTEXT of Sri
> > post is clear, and you can easily understand.
> Oh I understand. I don't think it is relevant.
> And the suggested
> solution (watering down the content of rituals etc.)
> has already been
> proven a failure as 200 years of "Modern" Hinduism
> > Religion and Mathas are not for a few privileged.
> > is for well being of all. Otherwise get out of the
> > "people's" life. Be Good and Do Good for all. Use
> > increased the prosperity and growth to serve more.
> > Then only does knowledge has served any purpose.
> It's a nice slogan but what does it mean in
It means that all people should have access to food,
health, education, social security, psychological
security for their future and the security of their
children, and live happily. These are same for the
forward comminities as well. Let the riches of a
nation be diverted to the upliftment of those backward
people. It might sound as a social program than a
religious program. But, we can achieve social
objectives through religion and religious objectives
through social programs. Religious association is an
essential identification for many Indians. Do not
discriminate some people based on narrow notions.
It is not possible for me to exhaust all possibilities
and programs. But, this is enough to say that such
ideas should shape our nation's goals.
Om Namo Narayanaya !!
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