Dvaita and Sophistry - Part 3(Inherent natures of jivas)

[Shrisha Rao]

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003, kalyan chakravarthy wrote:

> Namaskaaram,
>
> > > Is it not possible for a tamasic person to become a sattvik one?
> >
> >No.
>
> > > If not,of what use are the scriptures to one who is tamasic?
> >
> >They aren't.  No one has said they are.
>
> Where does sruti indicate this?

RV 6.47.18 and other places.  These are cited in one of B.N.K. Sharma's
books.

> >Yes, as per Krishna's explicit word: svabhAvajA.
>
> How do you know it is eternally constant?

Because the embodied, i.e., the jIva, has been described as `avyaya'
elsewhere, which means precisely that.

> > > in today's world. Change of faith is possible. Dont you see many people
> > > changing their religions? Who is a true seeker and who is not, who
> >knows?
> >
> >Non sequitur
>
> Good. So experience is non sequitur.

No, your response was.

> > > Do you really get this eternal damnation idea from vedanta?
> >
> >Yes, for example, from `andhaM tamaH pravishanti ye.avidyAmupAsate'
> >(Ishavasya U. 9), and also Krishna's word `mAM aprApyaiva kaunteya tato
> >yAnti adhamAM gatim.h' (having certainly failed to reach me, they reach
> >the lowest state).
>
> 1.How do you link the Isa Upanishad statement to eternal damnation? Where
> does the Upanishad say that andhaM tamaH is eternal?

In verse 3, where in connection with `adhaM tamas', the usage is
`abhigachchhanti' ([they] go for good), rather than just `gachchhanti'
([they] go).  The very phrase `andhaM tamaH' also signifies unremitting
darkness.  As Upanishads, and Vedantic texts in general, are about
knowledge leading to unending liberation, they care little about the joys
or suffering of the heaven and hell from which one can return.  When an
Upanishad warns of unremitting darkness, it is warning of something far
worse only.

> 2.Besides, if lowest state is great darkness, then what about the
> worshippers of vidya?

That is essentially Max Mueller's objection to Sri Shankara's explanation
of the verse.

However, if one grants, as the Upanishad itself indicates, that there can
also be degrees of suffering in damnation (as there are degrees of
enjoyment in liberation), then there is no issue.

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

> Kalyan