[Advaita-l] Re: Advaita-l Digest, Vol 1, Issue 22

Vidyasankar Sundaresan svidyasankar at hotmail.com
Thu May 29 19:47:19 CDT 2003

>Leaving aside Sri Adi Shankara's commentary, I would accept what is being 
>suggested here if you can throw light on two things -
>1.The earlier said analogy of two birds in mundaka and the reference to the 
>two entering the body in katha.
>2.The reference to the size of the soul in the brahmasUtras.(aNu)

Let's not leave aside the commentary. Rather refer to Sankara's commentary 
on this sUtra and also on the guhAM praviShTAv AtmAnau sUtra.

>>Again, whoever argued that brahman is deluded?
>gauDapAdA. Before you disagree you may look at the same two questions.

And sufficient discussion has gone by to show you that he refers to the jIva 
just three verses before the one you quote, and that he does not say that 
brahman is really deluded. Enough said, except for reiterating, read verse 
19 in its context of the verses that come before it.

>>So let me get this clear. The jIvanmukta used to be a normal jIva, but got 
>>transformed into something else, because of an experience of the turIya 
>>state - is that your position?
>No. But the esscence is unaffected(really or otherwise) even though the 
>jIva is. Also, it must not be forgotten that the jIva lost its 
>individuality ultimately.
>However for the sake of rhetoric sruti itself seems to be doing what you 
>are accusing me of. You disagree?

Again, if you think Sruti itself seems to be saying so, read Sankara's 
commentary on the sUtra "avasthitheH".

>>If the jIva is wholly unreal, then it cannot have its essence as the real 
>>Atman which is brahman. So there has to be something about the jIva that 
>>is real and that always was, is and will be real.
>Who denied its empirical reality? And as for unreality you know in what 
>senses the term can be applied.

I am not talking about the empirical reality of the jIva. I am talking of 
that which is eternally real about the jIva, that which continues to be real 
despite the state of delusion.

>>So, we return to my characterization of your view of jIvanmukti - that the 
>>jIvanmukta loses individuality in turIya and then returns to unreal 
>>individuality in other states, i.e. into and out of delusion periodically.
>To repeat it again - "A jIvanmukta is not comparable to a jIva" Even you 
>would agree that sruti is not useful, once realization dawns.

That is a cop-out and a refusal to address the fact that your notion of what 
is advaita is fundamentally incompatible with the very principle of 

>The statement regarding logic is in general accepted by all vedAntins. 
>Also, you are yet to refute my statements on gauDapAda.(oh yes, by openly 
>pointing out him, I took care to distinguish the traditional point of view)

Well, I confess I don't understand what it will take to convince you that 
your statements on gauDapAda have already been refuted, many times over. 
Every sentence in the last five or six replies I have posted was geared 
towards that purpose. Since I don't care to repeat myself endlessly, this is 
the last post in this discussion with you.

Best wishes,

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