[Advaita-l] Waking & Dream states - An objective outlook

[bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com]

praNAms Sri Sanjay Srivastva prabhuji
Hare Krishna


SS prabhuji:

You wrote:

"Kindly note that I am not denying  the  fact  that  the  waking
state is the one in which alone real action  is  possible.."

Why so? If I am giving equal validity to both the states, why do I
insist that "real" action can be done only in the waking state? (I am
taking "real" in vyAvhArik sense since no "real" action is possible in
pramArthik sense.)

bhaskar :

prabhuji, I think you've answered your own question here..the real action
what I am talking here is from the stand point of vyavahAra where in we
uphold the unwarranted reality of waking state..This is the normal belief
system that is prevalent in our day to day affair..

It is to be noted that there are three  different methodologies we have to
adopt to understand the three states in totality, i.e.

01. Loukika or vyAvahArika drushti
02.  shAstra drushti
03. sAkshi drushti (witness view point) based on our day to day experience.


SS prabhuji:

And from whose standpoint is this claim being made? If I am making
this claim from waker's point of view, it is mere tautology since
waker will always find anything "real" only in waking state. If I am
making this claim from avasthAtita sAkshi standpoint, again, it does
not make sense since actin in both states will be equally real or
unreal.

bhaskar :

When we are talking about all the three states...from which stand point we
are talking??  are we not making all the three states as *vishaya* for us??
This is called witness view point (03 above) where our chEtana objectifying
all the three states to analyse...you may ask " are we not doing this from
waking state"  shankara asks how can you objectify the waking state being
there in that same state?? can you sit on your own shoulder..he asks
humorously :-))

SS prabhuji:

Clearly, philosophical appreciation of this position is not dubted.
The question is, should it affect our treatment of actions as of now?
More specifically in the current context of rAslIlA, can we say that
the rAslIlA of swapna (assuming *swapna* interpretation to be correct
for the time being) has the same validity as of jAgrat?

bhaskar :

I think this question has been answered by Sri Amuthan Arunkumar prabhuji
in rAsa lIla thread...wet dreams do cause real ejaculation says an advaita
prakaraNa grantha called  prabhOdha sudhAkara :-))

SS prabhuji:

> Yes, this is what exactly I've discussed in my subject mail...we cannot
> make arbitrary remarks on other two states by holding one state's
> reality....either we have to accept all states are equally real  or all
the
> three states are mere superimposition on Atman...

I am again lost here. I can philosophically appreciate this position
for an avasthAtita purusha. But since this argument is being made by
me in my waking state, how far am I justified in this claim?

bhaskar :

I am failed to understand the logic behind attributing of some assertions
to jnAni-s and something to ajnAni-s in shankara bhAshya vAkya...shruti
says ahaM brahmAsmi..tattvamasi etc. are we not upholding this truth
despite ajnAna??  when shankara asks us to analyse three states from sAkshi
view point...we cannot say " no that is meant only for jnAni-s*..Further,
if you see ItarEya upanishad it says Atman has only three avastha-s & all
these three avasthA are mere dreams *tasya traya AvasatAH trayaH svapnAH*,
while commenting on this shruti shankara says : nanu jAgaritaM prabhOdha
rUpatvAt na svapnaH naivam *svapna Eva* katham??
*paramArthasvAtmaprabhOdhAbhAvAt, svapnavat asadvastu darshanAccha*...To
whom shankara advicing this?? obviously for those who upholding the reality
of waking world..is it not prabhuji??  we cannot push it aside and say
...no, this is not for us, this statement is meant for *avasthAtIta
purusha*....

As I've stated the  practical utility of the waking state cannot be
neglected since we are seriously entangled in that state :-)).  But atleast
being the students of shAstra we should know that the true nature of ours
ultimately something which transcends all these three states (na antaH
prajna..na bahi prajnaH says mAndUkya).  shankara beautifully explains this
in Itareya shruti bhashya which I quoted above.  He says, though we are in
waking state & doing shAstra & loukika vyavahAra it is still in the realm
of avidya.  Hence we've to treat jAgrat also as good as dream.  I hope you
agree if this rigorous argument in favour of waker holds good even when a
dreamer in dream thinking that he is waker & arguing about dreaming & its
futility is it not prabhuji??

praNAm

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar