[Advaita-l] Waking & Dream states - An objective outlook

[Sanjay Srivastava]

Thanks Bhaskar-ji. It makes it a lot clear. I will go through your post 
again and will get back to you if there are more doubts.

praNAm

On Friday, December 30, 2005, at 09:48  AM, bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com wrote:

>
> praNAms Sri Sanjay Srivastva prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
>
>
> SS prabhuji:
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Kindly note that I am not denying  the  fact  that  the  waking
> state is the one in which alone real action  is  possible.."
>
> Why so? If I am giving equal validity to both the states, why do I
> insist that "real" action can be done only in the waking state? (I am
> taking "real" in vyAvhArik sense since no "real" action is possible in
> pramArthik sense.)
>
> bhaskar :
>
> prabhuji, I think you've answered your own question here..the real 
> action
> what I am talking here is from the stand point of vyavahAra where in we
> uphold the unwarranted reality of waking state..This is the normal 
> belief
> system that is prevalent in our day to day affair..
>
> It is to be noted that there are three  different methodologies we 
> have to
> adopt to understand the three states in totality, i.e.
>
> 01. Loukika or vyAvahArika drushti
> 02.  shAstra drushti
> 03. sAkshi drushti (witness view point) based on our day to day 
> experience.
>
>
> SS prabhuji:
>
> And from whose standpoint is this claim being made? If I am making
> this claim from waker's point of view, it is mere tautology since
> waker will always find anything "real" only in waking state. If I am
> making this claim from avasthAtita sAkshi standpoint, again, it does
> not make sense since actin in both states will be equally real or
> unreal.
>
> bhaskar :
>
> When we are talking about all the three states...from which stand 
> point we
> are talking??  are we not making all the three states as *vishaya* for 
> us??
> This is called witness view point (03 above) where our chEtana 
> objectifying
> all the three states to analyse...you may ask " are we not doing this 
> from
> waking state"  shankara asks how can you objectify the waking state 
> being
> there in that same state?? can you sit on your own shoulder..he asks
> humorously :-))
>
> SS prabhuji:
>
> Clearly, philosophical appreciation of this position is not dubted.
> The question is, should it affect our treatment of actions as of now?
> More specifically in the current context of rAslIlA, can we say that
> the rAslIlA of swapna (assuming *swapna* interpretation to be correct
> for the time being) has the same validity as of jAgrat?
>
> bhaskar :
>
> I think this question has been answered by Sri Amuthan Arunkumar 
> prabhuji
> in rAsa lIla thread...wet dreams do cause real ejaculation says an 
> advaita
> prakaraNa grantha called  prabhOdha sudhAkara :-))
>
> SS prabhuji:
>
>> Yes, this is what exactly I've discussed in my subject mail...we 
>> cannot
>> make arbitrary remarks on other two states by holding one state's
>> reality....either we have to accept all states are equally real  or 
>> all
> the
>> three states are mere superimposition on Atman...
>
> I am again lost here. I can philosophically appreciate this position
> for an avasthAtita purusha. But since this argument is being made by
> me in my waking state, how far am I justified in this claim?
>
> bhaskar :
>
> I am failed to understand the logic behind attributing of some 
> assertions
> to jnAni-s and something to ajnAni-s in shankara bhAshya vAkya...shruti
> says ahaM brahmAsmi..tattvamasi etc. are we not upholding this truth
> despite ajnAna??  when shankara asks us to analyse three states from 
> sAkshi
> view point...we cannot say " no that is meant only for 
> jnAni-s*..Further,
> if you see ItarEya upanishad it says Atman has only three avastha-s & 
> all
> these three avasthA are mere dreams *tasya traya AvasatAH trayaH 
> svapnAH*,
> while commenting on this shruti shankara says : nanu jAgaritaM 
> prabhOdha
> rUpatvAt na svapnaH naivam *svapna Eva* katham??
> *paramArthasvAtmaprabhOdhAbhAvAt, svapnavat asadvastu 
> darshanAccha*...To
> whom shankara advicing this?? obviously for those who upholding the 
> reality
> of waking world..is it not prabhuji??  we cannot push it aside and say
> ...no, this is not for us, this statement is meant for *avasthAtIta
> purusha*....
>
> As I've stated the  practical utility of the waking state cannot be
> neglected since we are seriously entangled in that state :-)).  But 
> atleast
> being the students of shAstra we should know that the true nature of 
> ours
> ultimately something which transcends all these three states (na antaH
> prajna..na bahi prajnaH says mAndUkya).  shankara beautifully explains 
> this
> in Itareya shruti bhashya which I quoted above.  He says, though we 
> are in
> waking state & doing shAstra & loukika vyavahAra it is still in the 
> realm
> of avidya.  Hence we've to treat jAgrat also as good as dream.  I hope 
> you
> agree if this rigorous argument in favour of waker holds good even 
> when a
> dreamer in dream thinking that he is waker & arguing about dreaming & 
> its
> futility is it not prabhuji??
>
> praNAm
>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
>
>
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