[Advaita-l] Concept of soul

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

--- Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com> wrote:


> We seem to changing the books here. The "standard"
> understanding is that a
> subtle body "takes birth" as "fresh" new life. Now
> we seem to say that when
> there is a mutation of a cell (assuming that is what
> cancer is), a subtle
> body enters it. And even if we grant this, what
> happens when the culture
> turns out to be benign? What is the enlivining
> principle of the normal cells
> now? When I give blood, my RBCs are intact and
> normal but not within my
> body. What is their enlivining principle?

Maheshji - PraNAms

The basic understanding is 'Life' pulsates when the
upaadhis are conducive. This is true any where in the
universe, not necessarily only on this earth.

Second understanding from Vedanta point is any
conducive environment is nothing but the union of the
subtle and gross bodies. Subtle bodies are anaadi or
beginning less - that is how Krishna starts his
GeetOpadesha. End of subtle body occurs when there is
no karma left. Adhyaasa or error is when the
antahkaraNa is taken as real rather than just
reflected consciousness. 

Third understanding that follows is death is when the
subtle body leaves the gross body. Ch. Up provides a
detailed description of how subtle body travels and
take up life as baby through father to mother as it
enters the world. The very conception is the beginning
of 'Life' where the gross body has become conducive
for subtle body to take its roots. If it aborted it
only means that subtle body has to find another host
to settle! - same story as benign cells that you
mentioned. 

Now you can apply these principles to either cancer
cells that are living or dead, or bacteria living or
dead, or even to virus, living or dead, or to the new
cells that scientists have assembled, whether they
become alive or dead. The story is the same. Subtle
body enters when the upaadhis or gross cells or
assemblage of the cells.  This is true whether the
cells are 'so-called' natural by mutation or arising
from infection or 'so-called' man-made which are
nothing but assemblage using what is available.  In
principle there is no creation other than assemblage
of what is there since any thing new is violation of
law of conservation propounded by Lord Krishna - that
which is non-existent cannot come into existence and
that which exists cannot cease to exist. All creation
is just assemblage and destruction is dissembling,
since they are fundamentally made of parts,
amShatvaat. Consciousness is niramshaH, therefore
indestructible. 

You can apply these principles to any cells - benign
or not. The story is the same. 

The reason the subtle bodies exists is due to karma,
says Vedanta. They are beginningless since the
fundamental cause is ignorance which is anaadi. The
whole creation, so called man made or god-made is
essentially due to this karma which is due to
ignorance. Subtle bodies will find a gross body that
is determined by kaaraNa Shariira (vaasanaas) which is
nothing but karma in subtle form. Hence Krishna
defines karma in Ch. 8. as that which is the cause for
creation. 

I know you question does not pertain directly to all
the above -  I am providing in general sense so that
you can apply to all the cases you mentioned. The
vedantic model is self-consistent and factual as I
take myself what I am not identifying myself with the
subtle body which assumes different gross bodies -
like 'vaasamsi jiirNaani yathaa vihaaya' - that is the
fundamental truth - valid for all 'Life' forms-
starting from virus. 

With this I take leave from this topic since I have
stated all that I understand. 

By the by kuntimaddi is village name in Andhra.  For
some reason my father named me as Sadananda - He must
have good reason.

Hari Om!
Sadananda


> 
> Thanks, Mahesh
> 
> 
> On 8/23/07, kuntimaddi sadananda
> <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Maheshji - PraNAms
> >
> > Here is my understanding.
> >
> > --- Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > 1. What happens when some cells are extraced
> from
> > > your body as a tissue
> > > culture or suitably preserved while outside you.
> The
> > > individual cells of
> > > this culture continue to exhibit the same
> behavior
> > > as when they were in your
> > > body. They are living without the enlivining
> > > principle of your subtle body.
> > > According to your explanation, how is that
> possible?
> > >
> > First, when the cells are extracted, they are no
> more
> > my cells - They were part of me as one organism
> when
> > they are integrated as one - that is the reason I
> > mentioned about the cancer cells.  These cancer
> cells
> > or the tissue cells that are extracted are taken
> over
> > by another subtle bodies that is of unicelluar
> nature
> > since they function and reproduce. Life is
> pulsating
> > there in each of these cells as an entity. That
> life
> > or life forms are differnt from mine. When you
> prick
> > them, I do not feel the pain  since their subtle
> > bodies are differnt from mine.  They grow and
> multiply
> > accoding to their capabilities - but they are not
> me.
> > In fact you may be able to use them to clone
> anther
> > multi cell organism and that organism is differnt
> from
> > me with their own vaasanas and subtle body to go
> > through their life.  Cloning process is exactly
> that.
> > Why even when the conception occurs, two cells
> > joinging as one and growing - it grows as separate
> > individual.  In the unicellular experiement you
> > mentioned, the culture cells can also eat one
> another
> > since each wants to survive at the expense of
> others
> > if there is no other source of food. Each has mind
> of
> > their own!
> >
> > Organism is one as long as they are integrated as
> one
> > and that integrated oneness is due to subtle body
> that
> > is pervading as one. If there are many organisms
> in my
> > body, each organism behaves differently competing
> with
> > each other - since each is organized as separate
> > entities and behave as separate entities.
> Therefore
> > they have minds of their own that differ from
> mine.
> > And they live at the expense of the host and can
> > destroy the host for their survival. I have to
> leave
> > that body and find another one that is more
> conducive
> > or join the adviatin list to transcend my subtle
> body!
> >
> > The point is the life pulsates or enlivens
> whereever
> > and whenever the uppadhis or equipments are
> conducive
> > to express that all pervading light of
> consciousness.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2. Why do you differentiate between bacteria
> > > (prokaryote) and other cells
> > > in your body (eurkaryote). They are both living.
> Why
> > > does one have its own
> > > subtle body while the other not?
> >
> > No, I am not differentiating them - they have
> their
> > own subtle bodies compare to mine. Like we have
> big
> > apartment where I am living but some intruders
> also
> > come and live - unless I get rid of them they may
> > occupy the whole place and kick me out. The cells
> that
> > are integrated as one organism are governed by one
> > subtle body. Those cells that disintegrate and
> behave
> > not as integral unit as one organism but behave
> like
> > different organisms, since their organization
> differs
> > from mine.  The difference arrises since they show
> > that they have mind of their own - and that mind
> is
> > what we call their subtle bodies.
> >
> > Anyway that is how I understand as life. It is the
> > expression of consciousness in the subtle and
> gross
> > bodies depending on their capabilities to reflect.
> > Scientist as Vidya is pointing is only trying
> assemble
> > (not create) from nature what he sees are physical
> > requirements for consciousness to express.  A
> > scientist does not creat a life - life is the
> > expression of all pervading consciousness in the
> > matter that is suitable to express.
> >
> > In the gross body - it expresses as just
> existence. In
> > the more sophisticated cells, it can express as
> life,
> > if the physiological functions can take place due
> to
> > subtle body.
> >
> >
> > Hari Om!
> > Sadananda
> >
> >
> >
> >
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