[Advaita-l] shudra

[Michael Shepherd]

Anbuji,

I'm a somewhat 'liberated' poet. I write something down; then try to
understand what I've written..

What I was implying was : we are all the self, complete. Nothing is not
known to us. We may be born, or designated, sudra, vaisya, kshatriya,
brahmin. Yet every day most of us are required to fulfil the role
of --obedient service under instruction; exchanging our goods and services;
commanding and defending others; and even, some of us, finding time to study
the scriptures (or at least, studying ourselves, aided by that wonderful
atman...).

So the varna have their realities and actualities, and we experience them. I
would even dare to suggest (remembering my own suffering while trying to
find the 'right place in society' ... I want to know the truth, think from
the truth, act from the truth, etc.) -- that a happy man knows all varna;
while at that moment, acting out one role or another... and knowing that
they are roles...

I don't know whether that helps. Probably not !

Michael




-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Anbu
sivam2
Sent: 24 August 2009 14:57
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra



Michaelji,
I wish to understand you more clearly when you say: " we pass through all
varna from
sudra to brahmana in a single working day !"

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 4:54 AM, Michael Shepherd <
michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Gentlemen
>
> Just to record the fact  that I've now purchased Professor Ram Sharan
> Sharma's superb and painstaking 'Sudras in Ancient India' subtitled 'A
> social history of the lower order down to circa AD 600' (revised since the
> original publication in 1958).
>
> I think this should answer all my questions, and perhaps those of others :
> for instance, giving the several references in the RgVeda to the tribes of
> Daasa and Dasyu..
>
> Professor Sharma's conclusion after sifting the evidence is that 'the
> RgVedic society had no recognisable sudra order.' The book follows the
> subsequent fortunes and misfortunes of the 'lower order'.
>
> The conclusion would seem to be that today, we pass through all varna from
> sudra to brahmana in a single working day ! So perhaps we are fortunate to
> live in the kaliyuga after all, as the sages tell us: from the depths, we
> can only rise !
>
> Thank you all for your patience.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Jaldhar
> H. Vyas
> Sent: 20 August 2009 05:54
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] shudra
>
>
>
> On Mon, 17 Aug 2009, Michael Shepherd wrote:
>
> > I would be happy to clear up this matter of 'shudra' with the help of
> > members here : it is clearly an aspect of advaita, yet there seems to be
> a
> > confusion about the real meaning of the term -- and thus, whether it has
> any
> > relevance in today's society..
> >
> > The confusions seem to be two in particular : first, that varna and jati
> and
> > 'caste' are randomly used in relation to shudra; and second, that by
> > translating it as 'labourer' rather than 'servant' there is a sense of
> > inferiority implied.
> >
>
> A big problem is the varna system as depicted in books bears little
> relation to the system that actually exists in Indian society.  The Shudra
> varna as a sociological category is meaningless.  Shudra castes include
> economically dominant landholders, professionals and artisans as well as
> the
> oppressed and downtrodden.  And this is not new, in fact it has been the
> state of affairs for all of Indias recorded history.  Even in the shastras
> it is not cut and dry.  For instance of the two examples Shankaracharya
> gives of Shudras who were jnanis, one Dharmavyadha was a hunter and
> butcher of meat but the other Vidura was the minister of the Kurus, hardly
> a servile position.
>
> > Yet if the definition of 'servant' and 'service' is applied, it is
> > immediately obvious that one can serve kings, ministers, brahmins,
> > kshatriyas, and anyone else -- paid or unpaid -- with the highest
> > faithfulness, skills, devotion, and knowledge.
> >
> > How then can any spiritual gifts be denied to shudras ? How can shudra
be
> > seen as
> > next to dalit in some map of society ?
> >
>
> If Shudra means anything at all it is they are not dvija or twice-born.
> That means they are not entitled to initiation into the study of the
> Vedas.  The problem is that the Upanishads are the basis of Vedanta and
> being part of the Vedas, it would prima facie seem to mean that Shudras
> (and women, and foreigners etc.) are not eligible to study Vedanta and
> achieve moksha.  This view was indeed held by some thinkers and even in
> the Smarta tradition, there are some orders that do not accept non-dvija
> or non-Brahmanas.
>
> But this is not the majority view and Shankaracharya
> explains why.  The function of the karmakanda of the Vedas is to
> produce the desired goal (icchita phala) by means of accumulating
> merit and avoiding sin.  This goal once acquired is enjoyed until
> it becomes exhausted whereupon the cycle has to begin again.  Adhikara or
> eligibility for karma legitimately depends on external factors (along with
> caste they could include, gender, age, wealth, region, level of education,
> etc.) because the body itself is the product of this process of karma.
> However jnana is different.  Brahman is not a thing to be acquired neither
> can it be lost as it is the indwelling essence of all that is.  One who
> posesses qualities such as chetana (awareness), viveka (the ability to
> discriminate between real and non-real,) vairagya (renunciation of
> material things) etc. has the adhikara to know Brahman.  And as it is
> plainly evident that the non-dvija are capable of posessing such
> qualities.
>
> So much for theory but the practical problem still remains.  Without
> access to the Vedas _how_ will non-dvija get the knowledge that leads to
> liberation?  Bhagavan Krishna Dvaipayana who is called Vedavyasa because
> of organizing the Vedas into four, also took the essence of the Vedas and
> composed the Mahabharata (which contains the Bhagavadgita, Sanatasujatiyam
> etc.) and the 18 puranas culminating in the Bhagavata.  By studying these
> (which are therefore collectively known as the fifth veda,) the non-dvija
> can also receive the same spiritual gifts available to the Brahmanas,
> Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
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