[Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will

[Sunil Bhattacharjya]

Dear Maheshji,
 
You have asked a pertinent question, which I think Adi Sankaracharya replied to long ago. The self-realised, who is yet to become Videhamukta, do act and is a living person but the quality of his action is Sattvic and not in individual-self-interest. If you turn the heater off do the coils cool down instantly? Did not Lord Buddha talk after his awakening? Did not Lord Krishna Himself talk? 
 
Sincerely,
 
Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Thu, 5/21/09, Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 7:19 AM


Pranams Sadananda-ji!

I am in agreement with your position that a Master answers an individual's
questions are based on the individual's spiritual development. It is fairly
well know that the Buddha, on being asked if God existed, by two different
persons, replied Yes to the first and No to the second.

However, that does not mean that I abandon my position, the reason for which
is given in another thread. And on a less important note, one does not know
how advanced the below disciple was & so one can't discount the answer
completely.

I would like to pose one more question to you which may appear to veer away
from the original topic but then maybe not: You write:

>> I am never a doer or enjoyer.

In the case of a self-realized person, who is the doer? When I see him or
her act in the world  - who is it who walks, talks, sleeps, laughs? Who is
that who answers the question put by the disciple?

Thanks, Mahesh



On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:30 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> PraNams to all
>
> First I am not sure why I did not see my post directly other than
> referenced by Shree Maheshji and then by others although it was there in the
> archives list. The same problem I had with my previous post too.
>
> Anyway - Shree Maheshji - I give importance to only the texts - Upadesha
> saara and Sad darshaNam of Bhagavaan Ramana since most of other talks are
> conversations and the answers more relevant to the questioner than for
> general audience. Those are custom made depending on the student who is
> asking the question and his background. While the books are for the audience
> at large. The talks have to be understood from the contextual point. This is
> only my opinion.
>
>
> The point that was made by Bhagavan Ramana in the sloka is that free will
> is there to deal with the situation that one is facing and the situation
> that one is facing is due to past actions. Hence what I have is destiny, and
> what I do with what I have is purushaartha. This is the beginning-less
> cycle. Both arise due to ignorance which is anaadi. These go together only
> because there is katRitva bhaava that is  I am kartaa notion is there. That
> is only a notion, and therefore both what I have and what I do with what I
> have, both are result of the basic notion that I am a doer. That very
> conclusion is the essence of the problem and arises due to lack of
> substantive knowledge that - akartaaham abhoktaaham, ahamevaaham avyayaH. I
> am never a doer or enjoyer.
>
> The rest of the discussion is not much relevant to me.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
> --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > From: Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> >
> > >
> > > PraNAms to all
> > >
> > > Interestingly this topic keeps coming back again and
> > again and appearing in
> > > the both the lists at this time.
> > >
> > > I am not going to discuss this issue - other than
> > restate a statement I
> > > have made before: Free will is there until I am free
> > from will.
> > >
> > > Here is a beautiful sloka from Bhagavaan Ramana in Sat
> > DarShaNam in the
> > > text we are taking in the coming Memorial Day weekend
> > camp, related to this
> > > topic, and it may be of interest to some. He says, as
> > always in his
> > > characteristic style of brevity:
> > >
> > > vidheH prayatnasya ca ko2pivaadaH
> > > tayor dvayor muulamajaanataam syaat|
> > > vidheH prayatnasya ca muulavastu
> > > sanjaanataam naiva vidhirna yatnaH|| - sloka 21
> > >
> > > Vidhi stands for fate and prayatna stands for
> > freewill. He says the debate
> > > of fate and freewill is a universal and unending
> > debate. Some say it is fate
> > > and some say it is freewill that controls. Efforts
> > determine our fate and
> > > fate determines your freewill. What I have is fate and
> > what I do with what I
> > > have is free will. I have at anytime these two things
> > simultaneously since I
> > > have no choice but to choose - kartum shakyam akarturm
> > shakyam, anyathaa
> > > kartum shakyam - to do, not to do or to do another way
> > - these choice-less
> > > choices is there because of the present situation to
> > deal with due my fate.
> > > At any time I am faced with these two. Now which comes
> > first - is it fate or
> > > free will. That question is invalid because the
> > ignorance is anaadi -
> > > beginning less. The birth, sustenance and death are
> > cyclic and no beginning
> > > and no end until I get out of this punarapi jananam
> > punarapi maranam cycle.
> > > How do I get out of it?
> > >
> > > Bhagavaan Ramana says -this discussion is there only
> > because one does not
> > > understand - tayor dvayoH muulam - here moolam is the
> > adhiShTaanam or the
> > > substantive of both the freewill and the fate - both
> > arise with the notion
> > > of ahankaara - the notion that I am an individual
> > separate from the jagat
> > > the universe and hence separate from Iswara, the
> > creator of this universe.
> > >
> > > Hence Bhagavaan recommends not to indulge in this
> > useless discussion of is
> > > it freewill or fate which is final, what is final is
> > the substantive of both
> > > - the very existence-consciousness that I am - where
> > both jiiva, jagat and
> > > Iswara resolve into one and where both freewill and
> > fate get transcended.
> > >
> > > Hence he says, vidheH prayatnasya ca muulavastu
> > samjaanataam - for those
> > > who know the substantive of both the fate and free
> > will - the very
> > > existence-consciousness because of which both seems to
> > exist and because of
> > > which one is aware of both, that muula vastu or that
> > absolute reality - one
> > > who knows that for him naiva vidhiH na yatnaH - there
> > is no freewill or
> > > fate.
> > >
> > > A beautiful teaching indeed. My prostrations to that
> > sage of Arunaachala.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hari Om!
> > > Sadananda
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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