[Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

Maheshji - PraNAms

Krishna answered your question. 

Neither jnaani nor ajnaani really acts. 

PrakRityaivaca karmaani kriyamaanaani sarvashaH
yaH pasyati tathaatmaanam akartaaramsa pasyati||

all actions are done by the prakRiti alone. One who sees that clearly and recognizes that he is and was never an actor alone clearly sees. The anjnaani thinks that he is the one who is doer and because of that kartRitva bhaava he reeps the results and suffers. 

In the 5th chapter Krishna says
naiva kinchit  karomiiti yuktomanyeta tatvavit
pasyan shRinvan spRishan jighran ashnan gacchan svapan svapan 

..........
.......
indriyaNiidriyaartheshu vartante iti dhaarayan|

Actions will go on by jnaanedriayas and karmendriays for both the jnaani and ajnaani.

One knows that I am the substantive of all- and in my presence prakRiti is acting. All manifestations of prakRiti becomes vibhuuti.

For anjaani, he has the notion that I am a doer and enjoyer due to the lack of correct knowledge.

In Sad darshanam Bhagavaan Ramana addresses these in sloka 19 and 20.  From the point of physical body etc there is no difference between jnaani and ajnaani. Hence vedanta does not address the physical problems. Vedanta addresses the psychological problems associated with the physical problems - that is what is called samsaara. A child may have a physical problem due to ill health. Mother may go through psychological problems because of her attachment to the child. Concern for the welfare of  the child is different from worry about the welfare of the child. Gitopadesha starts because of Arjuna's psychological problems. Otherwise there is no difference between jnaani and ajnaani. Neither one is really a doer at any time. The whole adhyaasa bhaashya of Shankara starts with this. 

By the by, did you see my mail on the list serve or in archieves? For some reason I do not get my posts, I have to ask Shree Jaldhar or Shree Vidya. 

Hari Om!





--- On Thu, 5/21/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 6:26 PM
> Dear Maheshji,
>  
> You have asked a pertinent question, which I think Adi
> Sankaracharya replied to long ago. The self-realised, who is
> yet to become Videhamukta, do act and is a living person
> but the quality of his action is Sattvic and not in
> individual-self-interest. If you turn the heater off do the
> coils cool down instantly? Did not Lord Buddha talk after
> his awakening? Did not Lord Krishna Himself talk? 
>  
> Sincerely,
>  
> Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
> 
> --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Disccussion on Free-will
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 7:19 AM
> 
> 
> Pranams Sadananda-ji!
> 
> I am in agreement with your position that a Master answers
> an individual's
> questions are based on the individual's spiritual
> development. It is fairly
> well know that the Buddha, on being asked if God existed,
> by two different
> persons, replied Yes to the first and No to the second.
> 
> However, that does not mean that I abandon my position, the
> reason for which
> is given in another thread. And on a less important note,
> one does not know
> how advanced the below disciple was & so one can't
> discount the answer
> completely.
> 
> I would like to pose one more question to you which may
> appear to veer away
> from the original topic but then maybe not: You write:
> 
> >> I am never a doer or enjoyer.
> 
> In the case of a self-realized person, who is the doer?
> When I see him or
> her act in the world  - who is it who walks, talks,
> sleeps, laughs? Who is
> that who answers the question put by the disciple?
> 
> Thanks, Mahesh
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 4:30 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > PraNams to all
> >
> > First I am not sure why I did not see my post directly
> other than
> > referenced by Shree Maheshji and then by others
> although it was there in the
> > archives list. The same problem I had with my previous
> post too.
> >
> > Anyway - Shree Maheshji - I give importance to only
> the texts - Upadesha
> > saara and Sad darshaNam of Bhagavaan Ramana since most
> of other talks are
> > conversations and the answers more relevant to the
> questioner than for
> > general audience. Those are custom made depending on
> the student who is
> > asking the question and his background. While the
> books are for the audience
> > at large. The talks have to be understood from the
> contextual point. This is
> > only my opinion.
> >
> >
> > The point that was made by Bhagavan Ramana in the
> sloka is that free will
> > is there to deal with the situation that one is facing
> and the situation
> > that one is facing is due to past actions. Hence what
> I have is destiny, and
> > what I do with what I have is purushaartha. This is
> the beginning-less
> > cycle. Both arise due to ignorance which is anaadi.
> These go together only
> > because there is katRitva bhaava that is  I am kartaa
> notion is there. That
> > is only a notion, and therefore both what I have and
> what I do with what I
> > have, both are result of the basic notion that I am a
> doer. That very
> > conclusion is the essence of the problem and arises
> due to lack of
> > substantive knowledge that - akartaaham abhoktaaham,
> ahamevaaham avyayaH. I
> > am never a doer or enjoyer.
> >
> > The rest of the discussion is not much relevant to
> me.
> >
> > Hari Om!
> > Sadananda
> >
> >
> > --- On Wed, 5/20/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > From: Mahesh Ursekar <mahesh.ursekar at gmail.com>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > PraNAms to all
> > > >
> > > > Interestingly this topic keeps coming back
> again and
> > > again and appearing in
> > > > the both the lists at this time.
> > > >
> > > > I am not going to discuss this issue - other
> than
> > > restate a statement I
> > > > have made before: Free will is there until I
> am free
> > > from will.
> > > >
> > > > Here is a beautiful sloka from Bhagavaan
> Ramana in Sat
> > > DarShaNam in the
> > > > text we are taking in the coming Memorial
> Day weekend
> > > camp, related to this
> > > > topic, and it may be of interest to some. He
> says, as
> > > always in his
> > > > characteristic style of brevity:
> > > >
> > > > vidheH prayatnasya ca ko2pivaadaH
> > > > tayor dvayor muulamajaanataam syaat|
> > > > vidheH prayatnasya ca muulavastu
> > > > sanjaanataam naiva vidhirna yatnaH|| - sloka
> 21
> > > >
> > > > Vidhi stands for fate and prayatna stands
> for
> > > freewill. He says the debate
> > > > of fate and freewill is a universal and
> unending
> > > debate. Some say it is fate
> > > > and some say it is freewill that controls.
> Efforts
> > > determine our fate and
> > > > fate determines your freewill. What I have
> is fate and
> > > what I do with what I
> > > > have is free will. I have at anytime these
> two things
> > > simultaneously since I
> > > > have no choice but to choose - kartum
> shakyam akarturm
> > > shakyam, anyathaa
> > > > kartum shakyam - to do, not to do or to do
> another way
> > > - these choice-less
> > > > choices is there because of the present
> situation to
> > > deal with due my fate.
> > > > At any time I am faced with these two. Now
> which comes
> > > first - is it fate or
> > > > free will. That question is invalid because
> the
> > > ignorance is anaadi -
> > > > beginning less. The birth, sustenance and
> death are
> > > cyclic and no beginning
> > > > and no end until I get out of this punarapi
> jananam
> > > punarapi maranam cycle.
> > > > How do I get out of it?
> > > >
> > > > Bhagavaan Ramana says -this discussion is
> there only
> > > because one does not
> > > > understand - tayor dvayoH muulam - here
> moolam is the
> > > adhiShTaanam or the
> > > > substantive of both the freewill and the
> fate - both
> > > arise with the notion
> > > > of ahankaara - the notion that I am an
> individual
> > > separate from the jagat
> > > > the universe and hence separate from Iswara,
> the
> > > creator of this universe.
> > > >
> > > > Hence Bhagavaan recommends not to indulge in
> this
> > > useless discussion of is
> > > > it freewill or fate which is final, what is
> final is
> > > the substantive of both
> > > > - the very existence-consciousness that I am
> - where
> > > both jiiva, jagat and
> > > > Iswara resolve into one and where both
> freewill and
> > > fate get transcended.
> > > >
> > > > Hence he says, vidheH prayatnasya ca
> muulavastu
> > > samjaanataam - for those
> > > > who know the substantive of both the fate
> and free
> > > will - the very
> > > > existence-consciousness because of which
> both seems to
> > > exist and because of
> > > > which one is aware of both, that muula vastu
> or that
> > > absolute reality - one
> > > > who knows that for him naiva vidhiH na
> yatnaH - there
> > > is no freewill or
> > > > fate.
> > > >
> > > > A beautiful teaching indeed. My prostrations
> to that
> > > sage of Arunaachala.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hari Om!
> > > > Sadananda
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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