[Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive

[Michael Shepherd]

Suresh

I find your statement very agreeable. Perhaps you could copy it under the
title you suggest -- as I am still pursuing the question I originally posed
here. Since then the discussion has ranged far and wide, deep and high !

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
[mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Suresh
Marur
Sent: 06 November 2009 06:06
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
supportive



I like the way you desribe it too. The thought that awareness/consciousness
(Brahman) is everything is what the Shruti states. And that is what we
contemplate on in the process of unfolding the truth for ourselves as part
of our sadhana.

This is however the eternal paradox and I believe most beginners like me get
stuck.

Here is my understanding:

The shruti states that liberation is a state of knowledge complete in itself
and non-dual (sat-chit-ananda; Aham-Brahma-Asmi). This cannot be a thought
in itself but rather a cessation of it (not by will but by complete
absorption in oneself). It therefore cannot be "attained" by Karma or any
action for that matter. Also, this statement of the shruti cannot be proved
or disproved inellectually and the shruti itself must be taken as the
pramana. This is where the shraddha aspect is so imporant and is the basis
for progress.

Unfortunately however, when we start the process, we are in ignorance
(otherwise there would be no process) and the process to the removal of
ignorance is the sravanam, mananam and nidhidhyasanam. This process in
itself must be backed up by upasana of some kind that leads to purification
of the mind without which the whole vedantic process becomes an intellectual
exercise (further strengthning the ego) . It is tempting to think that by
jumping to Vedanta, we can short-circuit the process of upasana/karma yoga
(which is not very far from what Arjuna thought when he learnt that there is
an "option" called gyana yoga which could be an option to the uncofortable
truth of fighting a bloody battle).

This is where, I believe Upasana, Karma Yoga and Vedantic study must ALL
occur for progress to happen. It is a tight feedback loop where progress in
one area leads to progress in others. The process of Upasana and Karmayoga
together help us attain the sampattis that lead to weakening the hold of the
ego. The weakened ego allows for better understanding of the shruti,
increases sradhha and this feeds back into itself. Once a person has
attained Jeevan Mukti he however continues to play the game of upasana and
karma for the others in the world to see until Videha mukti. This is what
our great acharyals have done for all of us to see and emulate for thousands
of years and maintained the paramparaa.

Hence the question of "What happens after liberation" or "What next" or "So
what" ia a moot question which I have often seen in purely intellectual
discussions on moksha, nirvana etc. The question itself implies an incorrect
understanding of of moksha.

I would like to solicit arguments for or against this so I can refine my own
understanding. If I get some comments, I would then like to change the
Subject of the discussion to "The process of unfoldment of truth".

Hari Om.

- Suresh

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Michael Shepherd <
michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> I'd go along with that ! It's kaivalya as described in the YogaSutras,
when
> buddhi becomes unnecessary.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of Sunil
> Bhattacharjya
> Sent: 05 November 2009 08:20
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
> supportive
>
>
>
> I think the thought becomes the awareness that everything is Brahman, me
> included.
>
> --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Suresh Marur <suresh.marur at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Suresh Marur <suresh.marur at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually
supportive
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 11:45 PM
>
> On your last comment in "thought" to remove "thought", I came across a
> recent question and answer that were quite intriguing.
>
> Q: Vedanta at the end of the day is still a thought process. So how can it
> lead to knowledge as it is but a thought.
>
> The answer was even better:
>
> A: If we were to say that our thoughts are a dream, Vedanta is like the
> lion
> in the dream that when we "see", shakes us out of the dream and launches
us
> into "waking".
>
> - Suresh
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Michael Shepherd <
> michael at shepherd87.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Dear Shrinivas,
> >
> > Thank you for that response. It's just those 'labels' of experience
thatr
> I
> > wanted to look at -- particularly the 'dreaming' state.
> >
> > My 'taste' of the fourth state showed its simplicity : the bodily senses
> > were clear and fully available to sense; the mind was clear and fully
> > available to think; and all I can say of the 'spirit' was that it seemed
> > totally at rest. A perfect and blissful condition all round !
> >
> > But as you say, our 'daily experience' during the 'waking hours' is a
> > mixture of perfect sensing,'dreaming' or clear thought, and continual
> > swinging between mental and sensory 'rest' and activity.
> >
> > I am intrigued by whether we could rename the 'dreaming' state --
whether
> > 'day-dreaming' or 'night-dreaming' -- as quite simply the 'thoughtful'
> > state. During the day, it's voluntary' during the night, it's
> involuntary;
> > but in the fourth state, it would appear to be at rest and in effect,
> > unnecessary.
> >
> > I guess the answer is, if the presence of atman as witness is held in
> mind
> > at all times, all these questions don't matter !
> >
> > But I'm just intrigued, technically, as to the power of the 'dreams' of
> art
> > to use illusion to remove illusion, thorn to remove thorn ! Or by my
> > definition above, thought to remove thought, ahamkara to remove ahamkara
> !
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > [mailto:advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org]On Behalf Of
> > Shrinivas Gadkari
> > Sent: 04 November 2009 06:25
> > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > Subject: [Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive
> >
> >
> >
> > Namaste,
> >
> > Revisiting this thread after several days:
> > In our daily experience we are awake, we sleep and we
> > see dreams. Now we have three states of consciousness
> > "awake state", "dream state" and "sleep state".
> >
> > Based on my understanding and experience it will be too
> > hasty a conclusion to equate:
> > "awake state" = what we commonly mean by "awake experience",
> > "dream state" = what we commonly mean by "dream experience",
> > "sleep state" = what we commonly mean by "sleep experience".
> >
> > It is true that "dream state" dominates the "dream experience",
> > and "sleep state" dominates the "deep sleep experience",
> > However, the "awake experience" (based on my understanding)
> > is quite complex. Though the "awake state" is easily
> > recognized in "awake experience", there are interspersed
> > experiences of "dream state" and "sleep state" in
> > the "awake experience". Recognizing/ examining this
> > phenomenon, in my opinion, forms the foundation for
> > study/ exploration/ understanding of the three states
> > of consciousness. hari om.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Shrinivas
> >
> >
> >
> >
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