[Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4

[Tapas]

The analysis was excellent
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anbu sivam2" <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" 
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 4:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4


> Dear Sunilji,
>
> When I said "Karma is maaya.  Gnaanis are beyond it." I was stating a
> profound truth of advaitha.
>
> In dwaitha prapancham we have pasu and pathi and they have work to do.
>
> Pasu does both Kamya and Nishkaamya karma.  As Sadanandaji put it 
> "Niskaama
> only means no self-centered desire". I am sure you will have no difficulty
> in accepting this fact.
>
> Talking of dwaitha prapancham there are two views.  One sees that I am 
> real,
> you are real and He is real.  In other words each one is a separate 
> entity.
> In this scheme of things God is powerful and all submit to his authority.
> The relationship is like the one between Raja and praja.  In this scheme 
> of
> things a jeeva performs karma as destined by his varna and aasrama.  No
> violation is tolerated.
>
> The other view is - I am real, all others are God in different forms.  In
> this view the identity of you apart and different from all others is an
> alienation that has to be overcome.  A person who thinks he is alien does
> kaamya karma and the one who has overcome the alienation does nishkaama
> karma. Kaamya karma brings its rewards that is enjoyed in newer janmas. 
> You
> can feel alinated and that is your option that has pitfalls.  But if you 
> try
> to alienate another from God then you are attacking God, an act considered
> asuric and will be liable for severe punishment.
>
> When pathi does the work such as parithraaNaaya sadhunaam, vinaasaaya cha
> dhushkrithaam etc. as in the case of Krishna we term it as Nishkaama
> karmam.  If you see Him as one like you and me then his work is nishkaama
> karmam that is different from a person who does a karma with the fruit of 
> it
> in mind.  If you see him as the entire prapancham working to preserve
> Himself then you can even term it as kaamya karmam!
>
> So when you see a Gnani as one who has identified himself with God then 
> you
> see him as doing nishkaama karmam.
>
> As soon as you use the word God or Easwara (pathi) then pasu as a separate
> entity (jeeva) is sine qua non.  From this standpoint you have both 
> dwaitha
> and visishtaadvaita philosophies elucidating the role and goal of these 
> two
> entities.
>
> In Advaitha we have a slightly different understanding.  A gnaani is seen 
> to
> do karma due to praarabhda but as far as he is concerned he has no
> attachment with his own body or that of the universe.  They simply do not
> exist for him.
>
> This is how I happened to write earlier as "(c) Therefore a person does a
> karma 'impelled' by his ahamkaara (shall we say that this is destined!).
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 2:31 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Anbuji,
>>
>> It happened exactly as I feared. I said "This is to say in short. A guru
>> may elaborate this  in an hour-long or a day-long lecture."  I should 
>> have
>> elaborated what I said. A small attempt follows:
>>
>> Look at this way. A jnani, the jivanmukta, who sees through the veil of
>> Maya, who sees "Sarvam khalvidam Brahma" too has to work while living in
>> this world like Lord Krishna too performed work. What do you think the
>> attitude to the work thay have or had ? I was referring to that attitude. 
>> A
>> true Niskaama karmi has and must have that attitude. I call this type of
>> person only as  the Niskaama karmi. Are you calling  all the work done by
>> everybody all the time as niskaama karma?  When a person has the right
>> attitude towards doing Niskaama karma his behaviour pattern changes 
>> entirely
>> even though it might some take time for fachieving that.  A whole lot of
>> things change with Samadristi. When Lord Buddha was accused by a woman of
>> molesting her he smiled and felt pity for her. Can you smile when people
>> accuse you falsely?  If you give  some examples of the niskaama karma, 
>> which
>> according to you are being done by everybody all the time, we can analyse
>> them
>>  here and now. Nice to know from you that everybody in the world had
>> overcome his or her personal desires.
>>
>> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
>> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 8:58 PM
>>
>> Quote: "When do we do Niskaama karma?"
>>
>> We all do it all the time!  Though unconsciously.  We do it because of
>> love!!
>>
>> 'Aathmanasthu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavathi' says the Veda.  This
>> AATHMAKAAMAM is so very natural!
>>
>> So tell me do people really do nishkaama karmam on the basis of
>> samadrishti?
>>
>> Karma is maaya.  Gnaanis are beyond it.  This is Vedantham.
>>
>> Aagamists keep karma and maayai separate and apart.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
>> sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Ambuji,
>> >
>> > Yes, you got the point. When do we do Niskaama karma? When we have the
>> > Samadrishti we think that other's interest is as important as mine. 
>> > Here
>> the
>> > Samadrishti and love are synonymous. Lord Krishna said in the Uttara 
>> > Gita
>> > "Sarvatra Samadarshinaam". It means a Samadarshi can  can see God
>> > everywhere, which itself is the Brahmajnana.
>> >
>> > As regards the sequence of logic I would say that it is a fuzzy logic.
>> When
>> > you do Nishkaama work you have the Samadrishti and when you have
>> Samadrishti
>> > you do Nishkaama work. This is to say in short. A gurur may elaborate
>> this
>> > in an hour-long or a day-long lecture.
>> >
>> > Bande Krishnam Jagadgurum.
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Mon, 11/9/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
>> > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
>> > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 4:29 AM
>> >
>> > Nishkaama karma is not necessarily a karma dedicated to the lord.  Any
>> > karma
>> > done for the benefit of someone else is nishkaama karma.  Therefore the
>> > basis of nishkaama karma is LOVE.
>> >
>> > THE ROOT OF LOVE IS AATHMAKAAMAM.  This constantly happens in everyone
>> > unconciously.
>> >
>> > If one does not have the love no vairagya can enable the person to
>> perform
>> > nishkaama karma.    You have to check on the sequence of the logic of
>> your
>> > argument.
>> >
>> > GNANA is the conscious knowledge of 'who am I', the realization that 
>> > one
>> is
>> > Sat-Chit-Aananda.  This cannot be attained without the help of the 
>> > Guru.
>> >
>> > Dwaithis do not believe in the greatness of the Guru.  For advaitins 
>> > the
>> > Guru is supreme for he alone brings the release.  Even God has to come 
>> > to
>> > him in the form of the Guru to be of ultimate use to him.  Such is the
>> > greatness of the Guru.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 5:23 AM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
>> > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Anbuji,
>> > >
>> > > (f)
>> > > The highest jnana is oneness with the Lord. No jnana is available
>> without
>> > > the grace of God. Only in our Ahamkar we think that we can acquire
>> Jnana.
>> > My
>> > > personal belief is that once one achieves the vairagya, which is so
>> > > necessary for being able to perform Niskaama karma, one does not have
>> to
>> > > look back.God will give or arrange to give  the jana that the 
>> > > niskaama
>> > karmi
>> > > is no different from Him. Once a person gets the jnana by His grace
>> then
>> > he
>> > > may leave the separateness on his or her Videhamukti or may not part
>> with
>> > > the deha till a futuredate willingly as Hanuman is said to have done.
>> > >
>> > > g)
>> > > Yes the Lord will help. Guru may come in  diferent form. Did not
>> > Dattatreya
>> > > have 24 gurus each so different from the other.
>> > >
>> > > --- On Sun, 11/8/09, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > From: Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
>> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
>> > > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
>> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 3:23 PM
>> > >
>> > > Sunilji,
>> > >
>> > > (a) All karmas, irrespective of the fact it is kaamya karma or
>> otherwise,
>> > > bear fruit.  If they don't bear fruit then karmas would be 
>> > > meaningless.
>> > >
>> > > (b) No karma is possible without 'ahamkaaram' the causality that 
>> > > impels
>> > one
>> > > to do.
>> > >
>> > > (c) Therefore a person does a karma 'impelled' by his ahamkaara 
>> > > (shall
>> we
>> > > say that this is destined!).  He covets the fruit for himself or he
>> > > dedicates it to Eawara - this is his option.
>> > >
>> > > (d) A person who covets the fruit has to come to enjoy it.  This is 
>> > > the
>> > > cause of janma.  A person who does not covet has no reason to be 
>> > > born.
>> > >
>> > > (e) Easwara who is the karmaphala dhaatha would have no reason to 
>> > > cause
>> > the
>> > > birth of a jeeva if he had dedicated all the fruits of his karmas to
>> > > Easwara.  But would that be a true release?
>> > >
>> > > (f) A true release is freedom from ignorance.  A jeeva who has
>> dedicated
>> > > the
>> > > fruits of his karma out of his love for Easwara is still ignorant. 
>> > > It
>> is
>> > > not logical to say that a person desiring the knowledge of the Self
>> would
>> > > then go about performing karma and dedicateing its fruit to Easwara.
>> > > Actually
>> > > a person's desire for knowledge arises from his realization that all
>> > karmas
>> > > are vain ultimately.
>> > >
>> > > (g) This is where the point made in (a) comes to play.  Nishkaama 
>> > > karma
>> > > bears its fruit to the jeeva who performed it by way of his acquiring 
>> > > a
>> > > Guru.  Easwara himself comes to him in the form of a Guru and teaches
>> him
>> > > the knowledge of the Self.  Aachaaryavaan PurushO Veda.  The jeeva 
>> > > then
>> > > knows who he is and gets released.
>> > >
>> > > Krishna was the Guru and the Gopis were his sishyas and they learnt
>> their
>> > > Oneness with Him through his leelas.  This shows that the teaching
>> comes
>> > in
>> > > different forms and ways from a Guru who himself dons various forms.
>> > >  Arunachala mountain was Bhagavan Ramana's Guru.  He can even be
>> > formless.
>> > >
>> > > This is the scheme of things with regard to Nishkaama karma.
>> > >
>> > > This may perhaps answer your question:  "After doing Niaskaama karma
>> has
>> > he
>> > > to worry if he would have the fate of Trishanku or will he fall to 
>> > > the
>> > ways
>> > > full of desire?
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
>> > > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Sadanandaji,
>> > > >
>> > > > Namaste,
>> > > >
>> > > > Do you think a man would do niskaama karma without pure mind and
>> > without
>> > > a
>> > > > longing for moksha, whether directly or indirectly. I am talking of
>> > > doing
>> > > > niskaama karma day in and day out. and not what one might do once 
>> > > > in
>> a
>> > > way.
>> > > >
>> > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya
>> > > >
>> > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya
>> > > >
>> > > > --- On Sat, 11/7/09, kuntimaddi sadananda 
>> > > > <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > From: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>> > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] A Perspective - 4
>> > > > To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
>> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>> > > > Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 7:31 AM
>> > > >
>> > > > Sunilji - PraNAms
>> > > >
>> > > > Yes If Krishna finds that the yogi has a pure mind and is longing 
>> > > > for
>> > > > moksha, then either he will make sure that the yogi will get proper
>> > > teacher
>> > > > or he himslef will comedown and teach.
>> > > >
>> > > > When the student is ready for knowlede and want to have that
>> knowledge,
>> > > he
>> > > > wlll find the appropriate teacher- that is the law.
>> > > >
>> > > > Hari Om!
>> > > > Sadananda
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Sunil Bhattacharjya <
>> > sunil_bhattacharjya at yahoo.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > dedicated Niskaama karma yogi dedeicates the karma phal to
>> > > > > Lord Krishna will Lord Krishna ever abandon him? After doing
>> > > > > Niaskaama karma has he to worry if he would have the fate of
>> > > > > Trishanku or will he fall to the ways full of desire? Would
>> > > > > Lord Krishna not come to his rescue, in whatever form, to
>> > > > > give him the ultimate knowledge?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
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