[Advaita-l] Fwd: A perspective -20

[Anbu sivam2]

Dear Sri Subramanian,

In the first post under this thread I wrote: " Advaitha teaches us that
giving up the intellect enables one to become one with this Reality."

This seems to have triggered the discussion.  I have within my ability
justified my statement since then.  *A gnyani is one with the reality and as
such he is asangan.*   I have dealt on this subject of being asangan on my
commentary on the 100th verse of Sivaanandhalahari in the following link
while commenting on BhagavathpaadhaaL's use of the word "sthOthrENaalam".

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2010-February/045438.html

*As far agnyaani his first step is to realize that he suffers from
thaapathrayam which alone impels him to seek release.*  (If he is happy with
what goes on with him and the world then he wouldn't seek to alter it.)
That would be the acquiring of aathmagnyaanam which can be obtained only by
the surrender to the Guru.  Such ability to surrender to a Guru comes out of
sukrutham in many many births.

Then what happens between him and the Guru is one-on-one and does not
involve any set pattern and the upadesa may involve words or not even
words.  Bhagavan Ramana gave nayana dheeksha to many people.  My examples
from Ramayana and Bhagavatha are in these lines.

Who can assert that the intellect was involved in all these?

You have said: "If there is no mind, a human and a stone are non
different."  True.  But what distinguishes a gnyaani and agnyaani is that
one does not have a mind while the other has. (Perhaps that would put the
gnyaani as equal to a stone!!).  No, no this is just aside and lightly put!
What I am saying is that it is preposterous to say that a gnyaani needs the
mind to carry on in this world.  He is there exhausting his praarabhdha
karma but he is asangan.  What he seems to be doing is a destiny that he
knows unlike the agnyaani but may not care for he is asangan.

On the Vyavahaarika sattha I have stated that it is God's creation and
nothing in the world moves without Him who moves without Himself moving.  In
other words, everything is pre-destined.

Why so?  Because the world is a product of karma and Easwara as Karmaphala
Dhaatha has to ensure that the phala that he has dispensed is not overcome
by any means.  He ensures this by being the space, time and causality and
the jeeva too!  Now tell me how can anyone with only a useless weapon as an
intellect can challenge his will?  Our puraNas are replete with instances
that such overcoming of the Lord is impossible.

On this question a devotee asked Bhagavan Ramana if everything has been
destined then what about his sneezing and his hiccups?  Were they destined
too?   And Bhagavan said: "YES"!

>From this you can figure out the ability of the intellect.

In any case there is no substitute to the first step that I have stated
above.

Subhamasthu,
Anbu


On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:54 PM, V Subrahmanian
<v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:

> Namaste Anbu ji,
>
> There appears to be a need for some clarifications on your observations.
> Pl. permit me to make some points in [ ]
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Sadanandaji,
> >
> > Pranaams.
> >
> > Since you have said it was your last posting, I suppose this response of
> > mine would be for the benefit of the readers.
> >
> > Quote: "No knowledge can take place without the mind, including
> > self-knowledge."
> >
> > This is not correct.  Self-awareness is not dependent on the mind for
> such
> > realization is an inalienable right of every jeeva and therefore cannot
> be
> > conditioned.
>
>
> [ There is in Advaita Vedanta a distinction made between 'svarUpa jnAnam'
> and 'vRtti jnAnam'.  The former is nitya and aparoksha and is not in need
> of
> the mind.  However, the latter arises/is possible ONLY with the
> instrumentality of the mind.  While a jnAni and an ajnAni have svarupa
> jnanam what differentiates the jnani from the other is this:
>
> The jnani, owing to his sadhana under a Guru, has trained his mind and made
> the 'akhanDAkAra vritti' jnAnam possible.  This special vritti which has
> the
> Atma for its form destroys the avidya aavaraNam and itself gets destroyed.
> The example given is the 'veTTiyAn's kombu'.  He kindles the fire in the
> grave yard with this kombu and finally consigns the kombu too into the
> fire.  You know this.  But this is a must.  It is this vRtti jnAnam that
> requires the mind mandatorily.  manasaiva anu drashTavyam, buddhigraahyam
> attendriyam, etc are just two of the hundreds of shruti and smriti passages
> that insist on the inevitable, unavoidable, instrumentality of the mind for
> attaining self-realization.
>
> In an ajnAni this Vritti has not taken place and the avidya aavaraNam has
> therefore not gone and so he continues in ignorance.  For him the svarupa
> jnanam though available as a birth right, is not experienced distinctly
> like
> the jnani does.  It is all mixed up with samsaric vrittis and that is what
> keeps him in samsara.  The jnani, even though can engage in worldly
> affairs,
> knows to discriminate between the svarupa jnanam and the vritti jnanams of
> worldly affairs and acts without losing his realized state.  The
> Panchadashi
> has several shlokas to demonstrate this.  Even the Vivekachudamani has such
> verses.
>
> Even for Ramana Bhagavan the death experience that launched him into
> realization took place only thru the instrumentality of the mind.  It cant
> be otherwise.  If there is no mind, a human and a stone are non different.
> Atma chaitanyam is all pervading and is in and thru all things, both
> sentient and insentient.  All sentient beings have this thing called
> 'chidAbhAsa' the reflected consciousness and that is what distinguishes
> them
> from inanimate objects.  While only the former can hope to get
> self-realization, the latter do not have that possibility.  ]
>
>
>
> >  A person has misidentification by ignorance due to the play of
> > Maya.  Mind is a tool of Maya if I am allowed to put it that way. Guru
> > removes the ignorance and the misidentification is destroyed and the Self
> > is
> > revealed.  The form and manner in which the Guru removes the ignorance is
> > not to be asserted in any particular way.
> >
>
> [Even the best Guru can remove one's ignorance only thru the
> instrumentality
> of the mind.  The upadesha can work only if there is a prepared mind.  In
> the absence of the prepared mind no Atma jnanam can take place.  It is
> another thing that the Guru can help preparing the mind very rapidly.  But
> ultimately Atman realization is possible only thru the mind.  That is the
> teaching of Shankaracharya's Advaita thru the Bhashyams.]
>
>
> The word belief is often used euphemistically indicating that it
> > makes no sense.  All Bhaagavathaas believe that the Gopis got release in
> > their play with Lord Krishna but such would not be release for some who
> > would hold that the intellect by its dissection and discovery alone is
> the
> > liberator.
> >
>
> [There is in the Bhagavatam this verse of the Gopika:  na khalu gopikaa
> nandano bhavaan. sakala dehinaam antaraatma dRk. This means: the gopis
> realised Krishna not as the child of Yashodha but as the Saakshi of
> everyone's intellect.  It is this realization that makes them different
> from
> others.]
>
>
> > The reason I took the trouble to post my commentary on
> > Sivaanandalahari is to show that our AachaaryaaL was very much emphatic
> on
> > the bhakthi maarga and insisted on the surreder at the lotus feet of
> > ParamEswara.
> >
> > Truly the mind has the dual role of hiding the 'I' and then finding it
> out!
> > One can play by its rule OR surrender to the Guru and get relieved of
> this
> > mind.  It is a choice.  The reason a person would surrender to a Guru is
> to
> > relieve himself of the thaapathrayam and nothing else. The Guru will kill
> > the mind rather than delight it with his feedings.  Actually the real
> Guru
> > will make the sishya cry and cry by putting down his ego and dumping it.
> > The
> > death of this mind which is the root cause of thaapathrayam, alone is the
> > liberation.
> >
>
> [All this only means that the troublesome mind is tamed and rendered pure
> so
> that Atman realization can take place.  Without the medium of the mind no
> one can get realization.  This is the Vedanta Siddhanta that is inviolable.
> There is no escape from this method.  Whether it is bhakti marga or jnana
> marga, this alone is the way.  Pl look into the verses 24 and 25 of the
> 13th
> Chapter of the Bhagavadgita with the Acharya's Bhashyam and preferably with
> Anandagiri's teeka. ''dhyAnena Atmani pashyanti kechid aatmaanam
> aatmana...Here the word Atmani in the saptami means: 'in the intellect,
> buddhau'.  It will clarify the Vedantic position as taught by
> Shankaracharya.]
>
> My intention is to bring out the traditional Advaitic position on the
> subject and definitely not to counter the views expressed by you.
>
> Warm regards,
> subrahmanian.v
>
>