[Advaita-l] Fwd: A perspective -20

V Subrahmanian v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Thu Feb 25 05:54:20 CST 2010

Dear Anbu ji,

Pl. see my responses in [ ]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Sri Subramanian,
> In the first post under this thread I wrote: " Advaitha teaches us that
> giving up the intellect enables one to become one with this Reality."

[ This is not the teaching of traditional Advaita of Shankara's.]

>  *A gnyani is one with the reality and as such he is asangan.*

[This is true]

> That would be the acquiring of aathmagnyaanam which can be obtained only by
> the surrender to the Guru.  Such ability to surrender to a Guru comes out
> of
> sukrutham in many many births.

[There are no issues on this.]

> Then what happens between him and the Guru is one-on-one and does not
> involve any set pattern and the upadesa may involve words or not even
> words.  Bhagavan Ramana gave nayana dheeksha to many people.

[If Bhagavan Krishna, Himself PUrNa, could have approved such methods of
'nayana deeksha' why did He not do that for Arjuna?  Why did He ask him to
acquire Jnanam by 'tad viddhi praNipaatena pariprashnena sevayaa?' ]

>  My examples from Ramayana and Bhagavatha are in these lines.

[I do not think Ahalya became a Jnani after the shaapa vimochanam.]

> Who can assert that the intellect was involved in all these?

[Since Ahalya's case is out of this, it could well be said in the case of
Gopis that the intellect had become pari pakvam to intuit only the
antaraatma dRk, sAkshi, to the exclusion of every thing else.  This is what
Krishna advises in the 6th chapter: na kinchidapi chintayet.  The Gopi-s
could be said to have had this ability.  Constant, one pointed, Krishna
chintanam can take place only in the intellect.  So, where is the
destruction or giving up of the intellect?  In the Panchadashi Vidyaranya
gives the example of a woman constantly thinking of her paramour even when
engaged in her daily routine.]

> What I am saying is that it is preposterous to say that a gnyaani needs the
> mind to carry on in this world.  He is there exhausting his praarabhdha
> karma but he is asangan.  What he seems to be doing is a destiny that he
> knows unlike the agnyaani but may not care for he is asangan.

[Sir, pl. note that for carrying on in this world the Jnani definitely needs
the mind.  Supposing he is writing a book.  Will he not consult several
other books and select and reject material?  How is this possible without a
mind?  How will he distinguish between what is required for him from what is
not?  If he has to show compassion, care, etc. to others, how will this be
possible without the mind?  Bhagavan has taught in the Gita that these are
all faculties of the mind. If he  is an Acharya, a shortriya brahmanishtha,
how can he teach various students of various levels unless he distinguishes,
discriminates, etc.  It is a wrong notion that the jnani would have no

According to the Vedanta, prarabdha karma is the one where the present
body-mind complex that has begun will run its destined course and only then
cease.  How can we admit that only the physical body of the Jnani without
the mind will continue? ]

> Why so?  Because the world is a product of karma and Easwara as Karmaphala
> Dhaatha has to ensure that the phala that he has dispensed is not overcome
> by any means.  He ensures this by being the space, time and causality and
> the jeeva too!

[ When He is the jeeva, will He be just the jiva's body and not the  mind,
intellect, ahankara also?  If he is not always in samadhi, he will have to
interact with the world.  If someone calls him by name, how will he respond
if he has no mind, ahankara? The notion of 'mind is lost with
self-realization' is a concept that is not acceptable to Vedanta.]

> Now tell me how can anyone with only a useless weapon as an
> intellect can challenge his will?

[The intellect is required to go along with the prarabdha even if not for
challenging Iswara's will.  Let me also tell you that there are some videos
available on the Paramacharya of Kanchi.  One can see, over the years, the
Acharya had to be prompted by those around Him for suitable words, names,
dates, etc.  This was not required when He was young in His thirties and
forties. I have seen those videos too.  That shows that the intellect takes
the beating of ageing. This is the natural course of Prakriti to which even
a jnani is subject. Of course it is needless to say that his AtmajnAnam will
not be affected by these.  The Panchadashi Chapter 2 last few shlokas are
specifically on this. ]

Best regards,

> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 12:54 PM, V Subrahmanian
> <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:
> > Namaste Anbu ji,
> >
> > There appears to be a need for some clarifications on your observations.
> > Pl. permit me to make some points in [ ]
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Sadanandaji,
> > >
> > > Pranaams.
> > >
> > > Since you have said it was your last posting, I suppose this response
> of
> > > mine would be for the benefit of the readers.
> > >
> > > Quote: "No knowledge can take place without the mind, including
> > > self-knowledge."
> > >
> > > This is not correct.  Self-awareness is not dependent on the mind for
> > such
> > > realization is an inalienable right of every jeeva and therefore cannot
> > be
> > > conditioned.
> >
> >
> > [ There is in Advaita Vedanta a distinction made between 'svarUpa jnAnam'
> > and 'vRtti jnAnam'.  The former is nitya and aparoksha and is not in need
> > of
> > the mind.  However, the latter arises/is possible ONLY with the
> > instrumentality of the mind.  While a jnAni and an ajnAni have svarupa
> > jnanam what differentiates the jnani from the other is this:
> >
> > The jnani, owing to his sadhana under a Guru, has trained his mind and
> made
> > the 'akhanDAkAra vritti' jnAnam possible.  This special vritti which has
> > the
> > Atma for its form destroys the avidya aavaraNam and itself gets
> destroyed.
> > The example given is the 'veTTiyAn's kombu'.  He kindles the fire in the
> > grave yard with this kombu and finally consigns the kombu too into the
> > fire.  You know this.  But this is a must.  It is this vRtti jnAnam that
> > requires the mind mandatorily.  manasaiva anu drashTavyam, buddhigraahyam
> > attendriyam, etc are just two of the hundreds of shruti and smriti
> passages
> > that insist on the inevitable, unavoidable, instrumentality of the mind
> for
> > attaining self-realization.
> >
> > In an ajnAni this Vritti has not taken place and the avidya aavaraNam has
> > therefore not gone and so he continues in ignorance.  For him the svarupa
> > jnanam though available as a birth right, is not experienced distinctly
> > like
> > the jnani does.  It is all mixed up with samsaric vrittis and that is
> what
> > keeps him in samsara.  The jnani, even though can engage in worldly
> > affairs,
> > knows to discriminate between the svarupa jnanam and the vritti jnanams
> of
> > worldly affairs and acts without losing his realized state.  The
> > Panchadashi
> > has several shlokas to demonstrate this.  Even the Vivekachudamani has
> such
> > verses.
> >
> > Even for Ramana Bhagavan the death experience that launched him into
> > realization took place only thru the instrumentality of the mind.  It
> cant
> > be otherwise.  If there is no mind, a human and a stone are non
> different.
> > Atma chaitanyam is all pervading and is in and thru all things, both
> > sentient and insentient.  All sentient beings have this thing called
> > 'chidAbhAsa' the reflected consciousness and that is what distinguishes
> > them
> > from inanimate objects.  While only the former can hope to get
> > self-realization, the latter do not have that possibility.  ]
> >
> >
> >
> > >  A person has misidentification by ignorance due to the play of
> > > Maya.  Mind is a tool of Maya if I am allowed to put it that way. Guru
> > > removes the ignorance and the misidentification is destroyed and the
> Self
> > > is
> > > revealed.  The form and manner in which the Guru removes the ignorance
> is
> > > not to be asserted in any particular way.
> > >
> >
> > [Even the best Guru can remove one's ignorance only thru the
> > instrumentality
> > of the mind.  The upadesha can work only if there is a prepared mind.  In
> > the absence of the prepared mind no Atma jnanam can take place.  It is
> > another thing that the Guru can help preparing the mind very rapidly.
>  But
> > ultimately Atman realization is possible only thru the mind.  That is the
> > teaching of Shankaracharya's Advaita thru the Bhashyams.]
> >
> >
> > The word belief is often used euphemistically indicating that it
> > > makes no sense.  All Bhaagavathaas believe that the Gopis got release
> in
> > > their play with Lord Krishna but such would not be release for some who
> > > would hold that the intellect by its dissection and discovery alone is
> > the
> > > liberator.
> > >
> >
> > [There is in the Bhagavatam this verse of the Gopika:  na khalu gopikaa
> > nandano bhavaan. sakala dehinaam antaraatma dRk. This means: the gopis
> > realised Krishna not as the child of Yashodha but as the Saakshi of
> > everyone's intellect.  It is this realization that makes them different
> > from
> > others.]
> >
> >
> > > The reason I took the trouble to post my commentary on
> > > Sivaanandalahari is to show that our AachaaryaaL was very much emphatic
> > on
> > > the bhakthi maarga and insisted on the surreder at the lotus feet of
> > > ParamEswara.
> > >
> > > Truly the mind has the dual role of hiding the 'I' and then finding it
> > out!
> > > One can play by its rule OR surrender to the Guru and get relieved of
> > this
> > > mind.  It is a choice.  The reason a person would surrender to a Guru
> is
> > to
> > > relieve himself of the thaapathrayam and nothing else. The Guru will
> kill
> > > the mind rather than delight it with his feedings.  Actually the real
> > Guru
> > > will make the sishya cry and cry by putting down his ego and dumping
> it.
> > > The
> > > death of this mind which is the root cause of thaapathrayam, alone is
> the
> > > liberation.
> > >
> >
> > [All this only means that the troublesome mind is tamed and rendered pure
> > so
> > that Atman realization can take place.  Without the medium of the mind no
> > one can get realization.  This is the Vedanta Siddhanta that is
> inviolable.
> > There is no escape from this method.  Whether it is bhakti marga or jnana
> > marga, this alone is the way.  Pl look into the verses 24 and 25 of the
> > 13th
> > Chapter of the Bhagavadgita with the Acharya's Bhashyam and preferably
> with
> > Anandagiri's teeka. ''dhyAnena Atmani pashyanti kechid aatmaanam
> > aatmana...Here the word Atmani in the saptami means: 'in the intellect,
> > buddhau'.  It will clarify the Vedantic position as taught by
> > Shankaracharya.]
> >
> > My intention is to bring out the traditional Advaitic position on the
> > subject and definitely not to counter the views expressed by you.
> >
> > Warm regards,
> > subrahmanian.v
> >
> >
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