[Advaita-l] The Jnani's feeling of physical pain

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri praveen prabhuji
Hare Krishna

Kindly pardon me for this very belated reply...I was down with severe 
conjunctivitis (popularly known as 'Madras Eye' here in Bangalore :-)) & 
hectic karma at office :-)) Today only I am reading all these mails in 
detail.  Hope you wont mind my share of thoughts here. 





Hari OM, Bhaskar ji,


On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
>
>>  You might have observed prabhuji, jnAni's prArabdha is not only
> restricted ONLY to the continuation of his body after the dawn of jnAna,
> but it has its own influence on jnAni's mind as well, due to his/her
> prArabdha sometimes, as against his Atma jnAna, he may get angry, he may
> be sad sometime, but after getting these rAgAdi feelings in his mind,

praveen prabhuji :

Of course, I meant dehAdi when I said body... and when prArabdha affects 
it, it may generate whatever feelings its due to generate, but the j~nAni 
abiding in brahmabhAva may not have anything to do with it. 

bhaskar :

If jnAni, who is completely abiding in brahmabhAva (or brahman himself), 
does not have to do anything with prArabdha, kindly tell me whose 
suffering is this?? jnAni's?? or BMI of jnAni??  jnAni, abiding himself in 
brahmabhAva, anyway cannot have dehAtma buddhi, so sufferings & feelings 
cannot touch 'him' anyway...So, if at all we are seeing the feeling & 
suffering of jnAni's body, then definitely it is our own superimposition 
of dehAtma buddhi on the jnAni and asserting that see ramaNa is 
acknowleding the pain in 'his' body, krishna getting angry, rAma weeping 
for his wife etc. is it not?? 

praveen prabhuji :

This is not the same as saying that aj~nAnis have superimposed those 
rAgAdi on the j~nAni.

bhaskar :

IMO, there are only two options available for us here...Either we have to 
accept that jnAni, even after having Atma jnAna or abiding himself in Atma 
bhAva would occasionally get rAgAdi feelings (vAsana-s) by identifying 
himself with the BMI OR having realized the truth that he is 'ashareeri' 
always, he does not/cannot have dehAtma buddhi to feel the feelings of 
rAga, dvesha...So, socalled activities/attitudes of jnAni-s are merely in 
the perception of ajnAni-s who cannot go beyond the realms of jnAni-s BMI. 
 Kindly tell me which one we should opt here.

> immediately he takes the help of his achieved jnAna & tries to subdue
> it...

praveen prabhuji :

This is what I have trouble understanding. The subduing of it need not be 
an active involvement the way this statement makes it appear. Its the same 
prArabdha that subdues it. The forest fires need not necessarily spread, 
it may just be a spark that dies off on its own.

bhaskar :

I am sorry, I am finding it difficult to catch your thoughts here.  Do you 
mean to say here jnAni's jnAna (Atma jnAna) does not have anything to do 
with his attitude & controlling of his emotions??  If everything taking 
care by his prArabdha itself then what is the use of jnAna??  As per 
standard theory, jnAna cannot influence the prArabdha karma phala of the 
'present' jnAni, so jnAni with the influence of his prArabdha may get 
kAma, krOdha due to 'external' stimulations, if his prArabdha is such that 
he has to 'get-on' with these vipareeta pratyaya-s/vAsana-s, then jnAni 
will be the victim of these rAgAdi vAsana-s is it not?? His prArabdha may 
prompt him 'kill' some one or hurt someone, there is absolutely no control 
over it from jnAni's side!!   Kindly clarify your stand prabhuji.  Anyway, 
shankara in bruhadAraNyaka says very clearly that there is no vipareeta 
pratyaya for the jnAni, whether there is influence of prArabdha or not. 


And this suppression time again depends on his prArabdha janita
> dehendriya-s...

praveen prabhuji :

Which really means its not really with active participation, doesn't it?

bhaskar :

Frankly, I dont know the answer to this question, since it is not my 
stand.  Anyway, as I understood, suppression time may vary from jnAni to 
jnAni depending upon the 'set' of BMI he has, again this BMI is the result 
of his prArabdha.  But it seems that this prArabdha is the cause for his 
subsequent kAma krodhAdi feelings as well apart from mere continuation of 
his 'body' !! 

So, according to some perception, even jnAni gets the whip
> of his prArabdha karma & uses jnAna as against it & subdue it over a
> period of time.

praveen prabhuji :

I don't seem to understand *uses* j~nAna, 

bhaskar :

prabhuji, as per my understanding of the recent discussion on jnAni's 
cheshte, using of jnAna is something like this, whenever jnAni gets the 
feelings or pravrutti-s in his mind, immediately he takes the shelter 
under newly acquired jnAna and sits in a witness box & objectify these 
feelings and controls or subdue it by thinking about his jnAna svarUpa. 

praveen prabhuji :

but it gets subdued based on prArabdha sounds well, 

bhaskar :

but jnAna cannot influence prArabdha and there is no guarantee that 
prArabdha gets dissolved on its own!!  one jnAni's pratyaya may subdue 
immediately coz. of his prArabdha but another jnAni's vipareeta pratyaya 
may continue to be there longer time causing more harms again due to the 
influence of same prArabdha..It is logical (according to some others!!) to 
think so, because prArabdha continues 'as long as' he is there in his 
BMI...in other words, kAma krodhAdi pravrutti-s will be there for the 
jnAni as long as he is there in the complex of BMI and he cannot even get 
the help of his jnAna to subdue it..is this what you are trying to say 
here prabhuji?? 

praveen prabhuji :

because whatever level of citta shuddhi was achieved prior to j~nAna with 
active involvement, the vestige
remaining vAsanas would drop on their own in time, without active 
involvement.

bhaskar :

again, whether partial (or diffirent levels of purification) chitta 
shuddhi is enough to get svarUpa jnAna is a matter of further 
deliberation..shankara says in geeta bhAshya shama damAdi susamskruta 
manaH Atma darshane karaNaM and in the very first sUtra bhAshya too he 
talks about the qualification that is required for brahma jignAsa & jnAna 
..I dont think shankara assures us here that 'bhAgashaH' chitta shuddhi is 
enough to realize Atma jnAna!!??  He might have talked about it somewhere 
else, kindly let me know. 

But what happens between the interval (i.e.after getting
> the feeling and before subduing the same) is not in his hand, coz. 
during
> that time he will be completely under the influence of this rAgAdi
> vAsana-s which is the result of his prArabdha!!

praveen prabhuji :

Again, what happens getting the feeling and before subduing it is the
same prArabdha that subdues it too.

bhaskar :

So, as per the above statement, jnAna of the jnAni does not have any role 
to play here...so prArabdha and its influence is ONE and the SAME for both 
jnAni & ajnAni...and jnAni sometimes behave & indulge in activities like 
ajnAni due to his prArabdha karma phala.  Dont you think jnAni's life 
getting tuff because of this prArabdha:-))


> That the body has prArabdha and not AtmA/ j~nAni, as well as, the body 
is
> superimposed on the AtmA/ j~nAni are equally true in case of j~nAni or
> a~jnAni.
>
>>  Yes, that is the reason why attributing BMI to Atma even after jnAna 
is
> something alien to advaita siddhAnta.

praveen prabhuji :

But saying that the BMI which was earlier associated with prArabdha,
continues to have prArabdha does not at all mean that BMI is
attributed to Atma. 

bhaskar :

But haven't we attributing BMI to Atma jnAni who is nothing but jnAna 
svarUpa??

praveen prabhuji :

And if it is a superimposition by aj~nAnis on the j~nAni, then it was so 
earlier to rise of j~nAna too. Why
should this be a differentiating factor at all? What aj~nAnis see in a
jivanmukta BMI wouldn't have changed of any volition of the
ajnAnis. It cannot at all be a differentiating factor for the BMI that
existed earlier and exists now. Nor has what made the BMI live on
prior to j~nAna changed post j~nAna per se. The only thing
that has changed, in my humble understanding, is that the false claim
on BMI's doership by the mithyAtma.

bhaskar :

Yes, that is what we have been saying, we are always in reality always 
ashareeri only...shankara quite specific here that Atman's svabhAvika 
lakshana is 'ashareeratvaM' only and sashareeratvam is kevala 
mithyAkalpitaM. And jnAni even though looking like living in the body he 
is ashareeri only (dehavAniva lakshyate).   Despite knowing this fact from 
bhAshya vAkya-s, if we give undue importance to BMI & rAgAdi dOsha-s in 
the name of prArabdha is something untenable!! 

>>  IMHO, nothing special...if jnAni's body is something special then we
> would have preserved it by all possible means!! is it not:-))

It is indeed something special for aj~nAnis. It is an instrument that
facilitated the fructification of j~nAna. And so, traditionally, we
worship the samAdhi of j~nAnis, don't we?

bhaskar :

Yes, you are right prabhuji..jnAni's body & samAdhi-s are there for 
ajnAni-s, jnAni is always dehAteeta only. 


>>  it is shraddha of ajnAni's, who, with their limited conditioned mind
> which cannot go/think beyond jnAni's body coz. this ajnAni thinks that 
he
> is embodied one!!...And you would agree with me that when we are
> worshipping the jnAni-s in their physical form, it is implicitly
> understood that we are not offering our pooja ONLY to their physical 
body
> to make the jnAni-s body a special attraction over the advaya tattva 
:-))

But that we do to all worship, how else can offerings be made without
a channel? :)

bhaskar :

Yes, again agreed prabhuji...these channels, medium etc. are required for 
us, ajnAni-s, who cannot go beyond the dehAtma buddhi

praNAm,
--Praveen R. Bhat

praNAms onceagain
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar