[Advaita-l] Apaurusheyatva of Vedas.

[kuntimaddi sadananda]

Shree Ramakrishna PraNAms
 
There is a difference between pratyaksha and shabda.
 
Pratyaksha is direct and immediate - there is no shraddhaa involved there other than the fact that what I see is what is there. This is part of transactional knowledge in the sense that jnaanedriyas which provide the attributive knowledge of the object out there, is confirmed by the karmendriyas involving transacting with the object that is perceived. The objects are transactionally real as much as perceptually real. That is part of vyaavahaarika satyam. Here we are excluding hallucinations of the mind or bhrama where the knowledge is not based on jnaanedriyas. The errors in perception have been discussed elaborately in the Vedanta paribhaasha. These bhramaas come under praatibhaasika not vyaavahaarika satyam. The distinction should be understood between prama and bhrama.
 
Shabda points out the pramA via the words of aapta vaakyam which I take it as pramaa not by any transactions but by mere word of the mouth of the speaker. The example of reporter on TV I gave illustrates the fact. The propaganda missions are successful only because of what the listeners hear is believed to be true.  
 
anumaana depends on pratyaksha for validation in terms of vyaapti – here there is no faith involved since vyaapti establishes the basis for validation.
 
Shabda is pure faith in the words of the trust worthy. Its subsequent confirmation or non-confirmation would only establish the trust worthiness or non-trustworthiness of the speaker. Vedanta with jiivan muktas establishing the trustworthiness of the teaching. In that sense advaita doctrine stands tall since liberation is possible right here and right now, not after death confirmation that liberation is possible while living here is a refressing faith. 
 
However I still maintain that a statement by Y that some X has realized is statement of faith of Y about X. There is no validation of the statement other than a statement of X itself which again has to be accepted as word of faith. 
 
Let us take example Bhagavan Raman maharshi – Let ask a question - Is he realized (no affence is intended for those who are disciples of Bhagavan Ramana- I have taught Bhagavan Ramana maharshis texts too) – That he has realized - Is it a statement of fact or is it a statement of faith. To me what he teaches is what is taught in Vedanta - the same with respect to Nisarga datta maharaj since Vedanta is accepted as pramANa. Therefore my faith in him that he has realized - and from then on it is of least importance to me whether he is not not since answer to the question has no consequence. Now I am taking not the statements of some of his disciples that he has realzied but conformation of the Vedanta as pramANa for the validation too. Ultimately it is my faith that he has realized helps me to follow his teachings. If some disciples of Bhagavan Ramana say - all you have to do is inquire who am I and there is no need to study the scriptures, then I
 say their understanding of Bhagavan Ramana is wrong, since who am I inquire at the most gives the tvam padaartham and the equation involves the understanding of tat and the identity of the two. For that vedanta alone is pramANa.
 
Hence, in that sense I accept all scriptures in as much as they agree with Vedanta, but discard or reject those that deviates from Vedanta – why?  Vedanta is accepted as pramANa not because it is apourusheyam as for as I am concerned, but it reveals the truth that is confirmed again and again by the sages of the yore and also logical and self-consistent. Here I am using logic in the sense applicable within the realm of Vedanta.
 
In answer to your post, the validity of pratyaksha is not based faith in the sense of the word used for aapta vaakyam in the shabda pramANa. Pratyaksham is vyaavahaarika satyam. Vedanta points not about vyaavahaarika but paaramaarthika where no validation is possible until one realizes himself – for that full faith in the words of Vedanta is required. Hence faith comes first before validation. I hope I am clear. 
Hari Om!
Sadananda

Hari Om!
Sadananda
 
 


--- On Tue, 9/13/11, Ramakrishna Upadrasta <uramakrishna at gmail.com> wrote:


praNAms Shri Sadananda-ji,

What I think Shri LalitalalitaH is saying is that the use of word
shraddha for verbal testimony is either redundant (because such a
presence of shraddha is needed for all pramaaNA) or leads to regress.

Swami Satprakashananda-ji's book also seems to be saying exactly what
Shri LalitalalitaH is saying. For accepting a verbal testimony, the
additional clause of shraddha is not necessary, unless it is needed
for all means of knowledge. This is because "validity of knowledge is
intrinsic", while its invalidity is extrinsic [1].


Perhaps there are a couple of shraddha-s which you are talking about:

1. shraddha to accept any verbal testimony
2. shraddha to accept a verbal testimony from vedas.
3.  shraddha to accept the verbal testimony from vedas impliying the
jIva-bhahma-aikyaM.

For 1, the qualifier is not needed. Shri LalitalaalitaH is saying this.
For 2 is it needed for any mumuxus that accept pUrva-mImAMsa's
epistemology (all of us vedantins). One of the mails of Shri Omkar,
when he is asking about svataH pramaaNa is questioning this.
For 3, it is of course needed for advaitins from the famous
viveka-chUDAmaNi verse (all the advaita vedantins among us).

namaste
Ramakrishna

[1] Maybe the qualifier that is needed here that accepting truth
propositions for all pramA is inherent to human beings (and perhaps
even to the machine models we build).



2011/9/12 kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>:
> Shreeman - PraNAms
>
> In a way yes. Shraddhaa gets ingrained since baby as she grows and develops faith in the words of the first teacher - the mother. That I cannot see, nor prove by the logic that I know, I tend to accept based on the trustworthyness of the teacher that is teaching me - is this not true? The mental frame to accept is essential ingradient for shraddha and therefore much emphasis on the  four fold qualifications for brahma jignaasaa.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 9/12/11, श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <lalitaalaalitah at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <lalitaalaalitah at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Apaurusheyatva of Vedas.
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Date: Monday, September 12, 2011, 7:18 AM
>
>
> *श्रीमल्ललितालालितः <http://www.lalitaalaalitah.com>
> lalitAlAlitaH <http://about.me/lalitaalaalitah/bio>*
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 16:38, kuntimaddi sadananda <
> kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Shraddha is defined as - shaastraya guruvaakyasya satyabudhyavadhaaraNaa
>> saa shraddhaa - says Sankara in VevekachuDAmaNi. - that what shastras say
>> and the interpretation of them by the teacher are indeed true - without that
>> faith - no knowledge will takes place - shraddhaavan labhate jnaanam. This
>> is intrinsic nature of Shabda pramANa whether we agree or not.
>>
>
> 'words of shAstra nad gutu are true'  - this determination is shraddhA.
> But, tell me it's origin.
> Again shraddhA is cause of such shraddhA ??
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