[Advaita-l] Fwd: Eternal Loka

V Subrahmanian v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Wed Nov 7 20:04:54 CST 2012

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Eternal Loka
To: Rajaram Venkataramani <rajaramvenk at gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Rajaram Venkataramani <
rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:

> RV: In SBh 10.3.7 - 8, it is said that Devaki is (devakyam deva-rupinyam)
> sakshat Hari. In SBh 12.13.19, it is said that Brahma, Narada, Vyasa, Sukha
> and Parikshit are avatars of Hari only. In SBh 12.8.32, it is said that
> Nara and Narayana are incarnations of Hari only (nara narayano hari:). Most
> of these characters are incarnations of Hari Himself. I fail to see any
> scriptural support for Swami Paramarthananda's opinion that puranic
> characters attained krama mukti.

According to Advaita, on the basis of the Upanishads, everyone is an
'incarnation' of Brahman.  Yet all these jiva-s have to put in efforts to
attain jnanam and through that, moksha. In the Bhagavatam itself soon after
janma, Krishna addresses Devaki-Vasudeva that you have been giving birth to
Me for the last three births of yours but failed to know Me. That shows
that Devaki-Vasudeva couple are jiva-s in ignorance.

Narada is an aspirant of Jnana, himself declaring: I am miserable as I do
not know My self.  And seeks instruction from Sanatkumara in the Chandogya
Upanishad seventh chapter.

For Vyasa, Shankara says: A sage named 'apAntaratamas' incarnated as Vyasa
at the confluence of the Dvapara and Kali yugas. He is an AdhikArika
puruSha according to Shankara in the BSB.  Such a person is a jivanmukta
with special portfolio till his prarabdha karma exhausts and thereafter a
videha mukta.

Shuka according to the Jivanmukti viveka of Vidyaranya Swamin was first
instructed on Self-knowledge by his father Vyasa himself but as he was not
getting the conviction he was sent by Vyasa to Janaka.  Upon being
instructed by Janaka Shuka became enlightened.

Parikshit, owing to a curse, renounced his kingdom and sought to hear the
Bhagavat tattvam from Shuka muni and finally got it.

Swami Paramarthananda has spoken about the Gopi-s alone, as per my
listening to his Uddhavagita lectures.

> >
> RV: If your argument is right, then there can no inconceivable form.
> Sankara refers to the ever existent inconceivable form of Ishwara (BG
> 8.9).  Madhusudana clearly says that these forms of the lord are NOT made
> of five elements. We only have experience of forms made of five elements.

We have discussed this enough before and there is no point in going into it
again.  You can study the sub-commentaries for the above Gita verse.

> >
> RV: My main point Siva and Vishnu are not in bondage but they are able to
> engage in devotion to each other.

Let them engage so.  That does not contradict the Turiya state of the
Upanishadic teaching.  The idea of Shiva and Vishnu duality persists in the
pre-Turiya states alone.   We have examples of one jivanmukta engaging in
devotion of another one, alive or not, both being well aware that their
bodies are unreal.  What is required for such practices is a body.  And a
body for Brahman is not admitted in the Upanishads as an absolute reality.

>> regards
>> subrahmanian.v

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