[Advaita-l] Eternal Loka

[V Subrahmanian]

On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Srinath Vedagarbha <svedagarbha at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 2:41 PM, V Subrahmanian
> <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Who uses pratyakSha pramANa?  It is the pramAtA.  This entity is
> > fundamentally consciousness.  So, an eternal world which is
> proved/revealed
> > through pratyakSha is undeniably dependent on that pramANa and through
> > that, the pramAtA, and through him, Conscousness.
>
>
> Well, the knowledge-of-existence is different from Existence itself.
> In your analysis, the knowledge of existence of world is dependent on
> pramAta, but the existence (of pramEya) itself is not dependent.
>

The Chandogya shruti, for instance, says:

‘सन्मूलाः सोम्येमाः सर्वाः प्रजाः सदायतनाः सत्प्रतिष्ठाः’ – ‘Sanmoolãhã
somyemãhã sarvãhã prajãhã sadãyatanãhã satpratishthãhã’ – ‘Whatever
creation can be seen, has all been created from that sat – Brahman.  Also, Sat
is the cause of the sustenance and dissolution of creation’ (Chãndogya
Upanishad: 6/8/4).
Thus, O Shvetketu, that Brahman and Parabrahman are the cause of all. Sat
is the ãtmã of all; Sat pervades all, control all and support all.

The Lord says in the Bh.GitA:
मत्तः परतरं नान्यत्किञ्चिदस्ति धनञ्जय |
मयि सर्वमिदं प्रोतं सूत्रे मणिगणा इव ||७- ७||

"Sri Krishna said: O Arjuna, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything
rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."

Since the pramAtA is both sat and chit, the prameya is dependent for both
its existence and knowability on the pramAtA consciousness.


> In fact, one can argue in opposite way -- unless pramEya vastu exist
> in the first place,  knowledge of its existence cannot be generated in
> the pramatar. Otherwise, why dont you see gold coins everywhere? Why
> only see in some places?
>
> It is suffice to say any janita jnAyana (in pramatar) is as much
> dependent on pramEya as on pramatar. Both pramEya and pramatar has
> equal stake in jnana if it wants to be called as "yathArtha-jnAna". Or
> else why do you term some ayathArtha jnAna and other or not? Why call
> only snake knowledge is brAnti (prathibhAsika) and rope knowledge is
> yathArtha (vyavaharika sattya)? According to you, since both are
> equally depend on you the "pramatar", both knowledge must be mithya
> only.
>

Yes.  One is prAtibhAsika mithyA and the other is vyAvahArika mithyA. The
first one is negated in the vyavahAra itself and the second one is negated
from the pAramArthika jnAna.

>
> Taking one step further, the very knowledge of type "I am Conscious
> pramatar" itself cannot be generated unless I show up in this body
> complex. We do not see Conscious pramatar apprehending any knowledge
> in its aSharIri form. I am not sure about you, but I did not know
> about myself (that I exist) before I got birth and struck in this body
> complex! In this sense pramatar is as much depend on dEha which is
> hosting it.
>

It is because the nature of the Pure Consciousness of the Upanishad is that
it will not be experienced unless through some or the other upAdhi.  The
body/mind is one such upAdhi through which the Consciousness is
experienced.  'adRShTo draShTA'  'anAshino'prameyasya..' are the shruti and
smRti texts to show that the Pure Consciousness is the unseen Seer and the
one that never becomes a prameya, a viShaya.

>
>
> >Anything that has to
> > depend for its very existence/revelation on something else is unreal,
> just
> > like the superimposed snake that has no existence of its own but has to
> > invariably exist on the existence borrowed from the rope.
>
> Since knowledge about very pramatar is dependent on this body, hence
> very Conscious pramatar is mithya as per your own logic? I wonder.
>

Try to delve deeply on the above mentioned concept and you will understand
the vedantic position.

>
>
> > It might give
> > one some solace to think 'the world is eternal.'  That is avichAita
> dRShTi
> > for Vedanta.  The vichArita dRShTi, the enquired-into view is different.
> > That is what a follower of Vedanta will accept.
> >
>
> That vichArita dRShti is not so "vichArita" after all after one
> applies vigorous vichAra!
>

If you study under a qualified Acharya you will get a glimpse of what
Vedanta vichAra is.

regards
vs

>
> /SV
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