[Advaita-l] Desire, Jnana and Moksha

[V Subrahmanian]

Dear Sri Venkatesh,

There is no disagreement by Shankara with any scripture or the JMV with any
scripture.  The JMV is pointing to a fact, vastu sthiti, in Yajnavalkya's
case which none can deny.  In the Taittiriya Upanishad shIkShaavalli we
have:

yAni asmAkam sucharitAni tAni sevitavyAni, no itarANi, tAni tvayopAsyAni,
no itarANi  [The Guru instructs the shishya: Whatever is noble/good conduct
in me , that you have to imbibe/follow/imitate and not others (that which
is not good/noble in me).  That shows that it is possible that there are
some habits/mannerisms/conduct that is admitted/recognized by the Acharya
himself which is not to be imbibed by the shishya.  Pl. read what Shankara
says in that bhashyam Tai.up.1.11.  'Even if shiShTa-s do something that is
censurable...which is against the Veda.....'  These are the things that
Shankara explains there.

In the shAntipATha for 'mA viviShAvahaiH' Shankara says: due to
inadvertence there can be aparaadha, dveSha etc. between the shishya and
the Acharya.  It is well known that Shankara has said (and Sureshwara too):
'sunipuNAnAmapi sUkShmAparaadhadarshanAt'  [even with extremely careful
(adepts) persons mistakes occur].

One might argue that the teacher of the Veda here is not a brahmavit.
Shankara says somewhere 'Acharyasya kRtArthatvAt ...since the Acharya is
kRtArtha, has attained the ultimate,...

As I said earlier, the Upanishads/Gita always give the most ideal
situation.  But the vastu sthiti can be different; it would be impossible
or at least very rare to find a perfect Acharya and shiShya that conform
hundred percent to the scriptural requirement.  The play of prArabdha is
what comes to be highlighted in all such cases where anger, desire, etc.
manifest in Jnanis.  The JMV explicitly says this while comparing the two
types of adhikArin-s who take up brahmavidyA.  Pl. go through those
sections from the archives.  The search word can be: kRtopAsti and
akRtopAsti.

regards
subrahmanian.v


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Namaste Sri Subrahmanian
>
> You have written -  What all this shows is: one might wish the jnani to be
> this way or that but the 'vastu sthiti' should also be not lost sight of.
>  This is exactly what the JMV has accomplished.
>
> Kindly see Adi Sankara's saying in Upadesha Sahasi 1-2  describing a
> student Sishya
> http://www.sankaracharya.org/upadesa_sahasri.php
>
> 2. That means to liberation, viz., Knowledge, should be explained again and
> again until it is firmly grasped, to a pure Brahmana disciple who is
> indifferent to everything that is transitory and achievable through certain
> means, who has given up the desire for a son, for wealth and for this world
> and the next, who has adopted the life of a wandering monk and is endowed
> with control over the mind and senses, with compassion etc., as well as
> with the qualities of a disciple well-known in the scriptures and who has
> approached the teacher in the prescribed manner and has been examined in
> respect of his caste, profession, conduct, learning and parentage.
>
> In 1-6 he is describing a teacher Acharya like this -
> 6. The teacher is one who is endowed with the power of furnishing arguments
> pro and con, of understanding questions and remembering them, who possesses
> tranquillity, self-control, compassion and a desire to help others, who is
> versed in the scriptures and unattached to enjoyments both seen and unseen,
> who has renounced the means to all kinds of actions, who is a knower of
> Brahman and is established in it, who is never a transgressor of the rules
> of conduct and who is devoid of shortcomings such as ostentation, pride,
> deceit, cunning, jugglery, jealousy, falsehood, egotism and attachment. He
> has the sole aim of helping others and a desire to impart the knowledge of
> Brahman only. He should first of all teach the Sruti texts establishing the
> oneness of the self with Brahman such as, “My child, in the beginning it
> (the universe) was Existence only, one alone without a second”, “Where one
> sees nothing else” “All this is but the Self”, “In the beginning all this
> was but the one Self” and “All this is verily Brahman”.
>
> Sishya must have control on his senses and mind. Acharya must be a
> Brahmavit and he must never break rules of conduct and unattached to
> enjoyments.
>
> Both Sishya and Acharya have been described. Now tell us where Adi Sankara
> is saying a Brahmavit can have desire for enjoyment, wealth and wives like
> JMV is saying.
>
> If Gita is 'Ideal Situation' but cannot be practiced why Adi Sankara is
> also agreeing with Gita? Why JMV is  different from Upadesha Sahasri's
> opinion?
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 10:18 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > It would benefit many members to look into the archives for several
> > extracts from the Jivanmukti Viveka of Swami Vidyaranya.  In those
> extracts
> > the analysis of the person Sage Yajnavalkya (Y) is available.  In short,
> > Swami Vidyaranya takes up this case and at the outset establishes that Y
> is
> > an aparokShajnAni, a renowned Acharya of BrahmavidyA celebrated by the
> > Brihadaranyaka upanishad.  Later he goes on to show instances, available
> > from this very upanishad, to demonstrate how Y had given in to desire
> (for
> > wealth, cattle, name/fame), anger (cursing shAkalya to death), engaging
> in
> > debates, etc.  Finally the revered author shows that from the fact that Y
> > decided to renounce worldly life (he was still a householder with two
> > wives) in search of 'peace' to convey that Y, despite being an
> > aparokShajnani, with cessation of rebirth guaranteed, yet did not enjoy
> > peace, owing to desire, anger, etc. which co-existed with his aparoksha
> > jnanam.
> >
> > Reading the various excerpts from the above work in the discussions would
> > put to rest several misconceptions about the concept of jnana, moksha,
> > vasana, prarabdha karma, jivan mukti, etc.
> >
> > Above all it should be remembered that in Vedanta it is not that the
> > shruti/smRti is the ONLY pramANa.  Yukti, and more importantly,
> > vidvadanubhava, are also regarded as significant pramana-s.  While the
> > sthitaprajna lakshana detailed in the BG is a guide book, instances of
> > jnani-s available both in the upanishads and smrtis and outside them, in
> > the sampradaya, are all equally guides.  I am mentioning this in
> particular
> > reference to Sri Venkatesh's recent post citing the fifth chapter verses
> of
> > the BG.  What all this shows is: one might wish the jnani to be this way
> or
> > that but the 'vastu sthiti' should also be not lost sight of.  This is
> > exactly what the JMV has accomplished.
> >
> > regards
> > subrahmanian.v
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Nithin Sridhar <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > But, Jnana cannot arise in a person with impure chitta. Chitta Shuddhi
> is
> > > the requirement for Jnana Sadhana. Chitta Shuddhi means destruction of
> > all
> > > mental passions like kama, krodha etc. For a person to hear Mahavakyas
> > and
> > > attain Aparoksha Jnana, he must have developed qualities of viveka etc
> > > which is possible due to chitta shuddhi. This is my understanding.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:13 AM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Shri Chandramouli, why three conditions should be satisfied? If
> > > > ajnana is removed, then he is a mukta. The very fact he lives on
> makes
> > > him
> > > > a jivan mukta. Isn't this alone enough? For the mind to relish brahma
> > > > jnanam, however, we need mano-nasa and vasana-kshaya. My
> understanding
> > of
> > > > mano-nasa is that when I see a pot, I see it for what it really is -
> > all
> > > > blissful brahman non-different my self -  instead of letting the mind
> > > > undergo modification in the form of the pot or in other words I don't
> > see
> > > > it. My understanding of vasana kshaya is I'm  clear of impressions
> from
> > > > past experiences of the pot and there's no internal absorption in the
> > > pot.
> > > > These two are dependent on control of the mind not the rise of
> > knowledge
> > > > itself. Is it not?
> > > >
> > > > Dear Shri Nitin, the bad qualities will be gone even when one has
> > > > perfected naishkamya karma. He is simply interested in executing his
> > > > svadharma. It will also be gone when one perform bhakti as his
> > activities
> > > > are done only for the Lord. The rise of jnana is not dependent on
> > > > perfection in karma or bhakti though they help to make the mind pure.
> > It
> > > is
> > > > simply dependent on the instruction of maha vakyas and its
> absorption.
> > Is
> > > > it not? It may still leave the mind functional with its good and bad
> > > > qualities if it was not controlled. Is it not?
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Nithin Sridhar <sridhar.nithin at gmail.com>
> > > > Sender: "Advaita-l" <advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> >Date:
> > > > Fri, 6 Dec 2013 21:20:46
> > > > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<
> > > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > > >  <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Desire, Jnana and Moksha
> > > >
> > > > I agree with Venkatesh Murthy. Even Sureshwaracharya in his
> Naishkarmya
> > > > Siddhi clearly says a Jivanmukta is devoid of desires, anger etc
> > > >
> > > > -Nithin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <
> vmurthy36 at gmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Namaste
> > > > >
> > > > > The Jivanmukti being described by some members in this Advaita
> group
> > is
> > > > > against Krishna's teachings in the Gita.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the fifth chapter shlokas below Krishna  has very clearly given
> > the
> > > > > picture of Jivanmukta. He must have controlled anger and desire. He
> > is
> > > > > yukta and sukhee. He is Jivanmukta. He goes to Brahma Nirvana. He
> > > becomes
> > > > > liberated. But members here are saying the Jivanmukta can have
> > desires
> > > > and
> > > > > anger and greed and other bad qualities. We can conveniently say
> they
> > > are
> > > > > all Prarabdha and he can enjoy Jivanmukti. This is not correct.
> > > > >
> > > > > shak{}notiihaiva yaH soDhuM praak{}shariiravimokshaNaat.h .
> > > > > kaamakrodhodbhavaM vegaM sa yuk{}taH sa sukhii naraH .. 5\.23..
> > > > >
> > > > > yo.antaHsukho.antaraaraamastathaantarjyotireva yaH .
> > > > > sa yogii brahmanirvaaNaM brahmabhuuto.adhigach{}chhati .. 5\.24..
> > > > >
> > > > > labhante brahmanirvaaNamR^ishhayaH kshiiNakalmashhaaH .
> > > > > chhinnadvaidhaa yataatmaanaH sarvabhuutahite rataaH .. 5\.25..
> > > > >
> > > > > kaamakrodhaviyuk{}taanaa.n yatiinaa.n yatachetasaam.h .
> > > > > abhito brahmanirvaaNaM vartate viditaatmanaam.h .. 5\.26..
> > > > >
> > > > > sparshaankR^itvaa bahirbaahyaa.nshchakshushchaivaantare bhruvoH .
> > > > > praaNaapaanau samau kR^itvaa naasaabhyantarachaariNau .. 5\.27..
> > > > >
> > > > > yatendriyamanobuddhirmunirmokshaparaayaNaH .
> > > > > vigatech{}chhaabhayakrodho yaH sadaa muk{}ta eva saH .. 5\.28..
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:36 AM, H S Chandramouli
> > > > > <hschandramouli at gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > H S CHANDRAMOULI
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Sri Rajaramji,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The answer to your question based on Jivanmuktiviveka by Sri
> > > Vidyaranya
> > > > > is
> > > > > > as follows
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For one to become a Jivanmukta, three conditions have to be
> > satisfied
> > > > > > namely attainment of jnana, manonasha and vasanakshya. But for
> > > > liberation
> > > > > > and absence of rebirth attainment of jnana alone is sufficient.
> It
> > > may
> > > > be
> > > > > > pertinent to point out that there are other views amongst
> advaitins
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > question of when a person becomes a Jivanmukta. Many are of the
> > view
> > > > that
> > > > > > on attainment of jnana itself a person becomes a jivanmukta.
> > However
> > > > > there
> > > > > > are no differences concerning rebirth. attainment of jnana alone
> is
> > > > > > sufficient for escaping from rebirth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When Ajnana is destroyed , Jnana automatically without any
> further
> > > > effort
> > > > > > as it is Swayamprakashah. This also leads to destruction of all
> > > > sanchita
> > > > > > and agami karma phalas. But prarabdha karma phala can be
> exhausted
> > > only
> > > > > by
> > > > > > experiencing it. Hence the body continues to function. Dependimg
> on
> > > the
> > > > > > sadhanas carriedout prior to jnana it is posssible that the other
> > two
> > > > > > attributes namely mano nasha and vasanakshaya might not have
> taken
> > > > place.
> > > > > > For this further nishtha in brahman is needed. After these two
> are
> > > also
> > > > > > achieved he becomes a jivanmukta in this body itself.. However
> even
> > > > > without
> > > > > > these there is no rebirth for one who has attained jnana. Once
> the
> > > > > current
> > > > > > body dies, there is no further bodies to be taken.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:32 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hare Krishna! It is said that jnAna is the sole cause of
> > liberation
> > > > > but a
> > > > > > > jnani need not have gone through total mano nasa and vasana
> > kshaya.
> > > > It
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > said some jnanis don't even sublate kama, krodha etc. If there
> > are
> > > > > > desires
> > > > > > > are left in the mind, won't the sukshuma sarira go in to a new
> > body
> > > > to
> > > > > > > enjoy that? How can there be moksha?
> > > > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
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> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > -Venkatesh
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Regards
>
> -Venkatesh
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