[Advaita-l] Maya and Sunrise Example

[Sujal Upadhyay]

Thank you Sadananda ji,

This is what I meant. I thought that it is not necessary to explain to
members who are more knowledgeable then me :) So I just pointed out :)

After clouds are veiled, we know that

1. Sun was always shining (always Brahman)
2. Sun was never veiled (covered by ignorance / got deluded)
3. Our observation is relative reality and not absolute reality. Person
sitting on Sun does not experience veiling

I think that the concept of maya translated as illusion is over blown, out
of context. For meditation purpose, we need to accept vyavahAika satya, but
make attempts to progress. It is vyavahArika satya that makes advaita
definitely startable (i.e. advaita can be definitely started). This is not
to say that this world is not illusion, but our concept of illusion is that
which is something not present and is of momentary nature.

Like if I see a table, but is mere laser projection, then my hand will move
right through the table, but if table is real, then since table is solid,
my hand cannot pass through table. But from broad POV, where even kalpas
are explained in Puranas-, the creations and destruction also look
momentary. So life of earth itself is momentary. Hence our life is also
momentary when compared to continuous creation and destruction. We
generally do not have broad vision.

We need to understand that mithyA means not real and not unreal is said
from POV of absolute reality. But when we are under ignorance, just like we
see sun veiled by clouds, we find it difficult to accept this world as
illusion. The definition of reality given in shastras (BG 2.16) is what
makes this world as *Not Real*. It is non-Self and hence should be
renounced mentally. It is not destruction but negation that makes the world
as an illusion. MithyA means *to know* that the world is not real.

Apart from this topic, I feel that Sri Ramana Maharhi and Sri VidyAraNa
SvAmI (in panchdaSI) have a some similarly in teaching like giving example
of

1. Jivan mukta
2. Nivakalp samadhi and sahaj samadhi
3. Controlling mind is like throwing net on bird so that it does not move
4. E.g. of missing the 10th person
5. Refutation of zero state (atman is not zero)

Reading first panch daSI and then reading Ramana Maharshi's works like

40 verses on reality
Who and I
Upadesha saram

Makes me to think that Maharhi's works are essence of what VidyAraNa swAmI
says. I have a copy of Hindi Translation of PanchdaSI by Swami Shankarnanda
of Chinmaya Mission.

I was thinking of mapping similar quotes, but it is too much time consuming.

Hari OM

OM

Sujal Upadhyay

"To disconnect from the self and to become Aware of anything else is
nothing but unhappiness" - Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi

He who has faith has all
He who lacks faith, lacks all
It is the faith int he name of lord that works wonders
FAITH IS LIFE, DOUBT IS DEATH - Sri Ramakrishna


On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:41 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sujal - Sun covered by clouds is an example Shankara uses in Atmabodha.
> The clouds are due to sun only and they appear to cover the sun for the
> person who is directly underneath - even though clouds can never cover the
> sun yet appears to be so- similarly ignorance. The clouds that are covering
> the sun is seen only due to the sunlight only. Similarly the ignorance
> apparently covering the self is known only because of the consciousness,
> which is the nature of the self. To see Sun clearly all I have to do is to
> remove the obstructing clouds. Thus when the wind blow away the clouds, the
> existent sun gets revealed in all his glory. I do not have to use any other
> means or pamaana to see the sun since sun is self-shining. Similarly when
> the ignorance is removed by the knowledge, the all illuminating self is
> self-revealed. I do not need any other means to see the self.
> This is Shankara's example.
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 1/25/14, Sujal Upadhyay <sujal.u at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Maya and Sunrise Example
>  To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Date: Saturday, January 25, 2014, 9:30 AM
>
>  Namaste,
>
>  We can take e.g. of Sun veiled by clouds to explain that
>  Brahamn is never
>  deluded, but it is still deluded:)
>
>  Hari OM
>
>  OM
>
>  Sujal Upadhyay
>
>  "To disconnect from the self and to become Aware of anything
>  else is
>  nothing but unhappiness" - Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi
>
>  He who has faith has all
>  He who lacks faith, lacks all
>  It is the faith int he name of lord that works wonders
>  FAITH IS LIFE, DOUBT IS DEATH - Sri Ramakrishna
>
>
>  On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 7:25 PM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
>  kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
>  wrote:
>
>  > Suresh - PraNAs
>  >
>  > These examples are given to make us understand the
>  adhyaasa or errors  in
>  > perception. There are two types of adhyaasa. 1. sa
>  upaadhika and 2.
>  > nirupaadika.
>  >
>  > The rope/snake and mirage water examples - both are
>  given to illustrate
>  > the problem. In the case of rope/snake - the error is
>  praatibhaasika where
>  > I seen it as snake while others do not or may not see
>  the snake. snake is
>  > projected because of saadrisyam or similarities in
>  terms of attributes. The
>  > attributes the senses gather depends on the capacity of
>  the senses and also
>  > the associated environmental conditions (light or
>  darkness or
>  > semi-darkness) etc. Hence the attributes are either
>  incomplete or
>  > inaccurate for my mind to recognize what I see as an
>  object. I project the
>  > snake from memory where there is a rope based on the
>  partial attributes.
>  > This is subject error of the object perceived. This
>  comes under Jiiva
>  > sRiShTi
>  >
>  > In the case of miraj water or even sun-rise, there is
>  objective error of
>  > the object perceived - the error is vyaavaahaarika.
>  Here the error is not
>  > due to incorrect sense perception but due to laws of
>  nature that are beyond
>  > the individual control. Hence everybody sees the mirage
>  waters or sun-rise
>  > and sun-set. In addition even after shastra says there
>  is no sunrise and
>  > sunset, and it is clearly understood, still we see and
>  enjoy the sunrise
>  > and sunset. That is the knowledge of the fact does not
>  eliminate the
>  > appearances. The same is seeing all the trees moving in
>  opposite direction
>  > when only when the train is moving forward. These come
>  under Iswara sRiShTi.
>  >
>  > Both adhyaasas are relevant in advaita. One is the
>  objective error and the
>  > other is subjective error.
>  >
>  > When I understand that it is rope, then there is no
>  more snake vision.
>  > Similarly when I understand that I am Brahman, then
>  there is no samsara or
>  > emotional problems due to attachments. Jiiva sRishTi
>  due to likes and
>  > dislikes are eliminated. They will not come back just
>  as snake will not
>  > come back where the rope is.
>  >
>  > On the other hand adhyaasa due to the Iswara
>  sRiShTi  will still be there
>  > ever though I understood that it is not real - just as
>  the sun-rise. A
>  > jnaani still sees the world of plurality that is
>  different from his local
>  > BMI. Yes he understands the plurality is only
>  appearance but not real just
>  > as the sun rise or mirage waters or trees running
>  backwards Hence the world
>  > is recognized by a jnaani as mithyaa neither real nor
>  unreal since it is
>  > experienced - just like sun-rise and sun set.
>  >
>  > Hence both adhyaasas or errors in perception are
>  applicable to understand
>  > the truth underlying perceptions.
>  >
>  > Hope this helps
>  > Hari Om!
>  > Sadananda
>  >
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------
>  > On Sat, 1/25/14, Suresh <mayavaadi at yahoo.com>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  >  Subject: [Advaita-l] Maya and Sunrise Example
>  >  To: "Advaita" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  >  Date: Saturday, January 25, 2014, 7:51 AM
>  >
>  >  Friends,
>  >
>  >  Most people explain maya using the snake-rope
>  example (or
>  >  silver, mirage etc.), but wouldn't the sunrise
>  example be
>  >  better? Rope-snake example leads to the problem:
>  there is an
>  >  error in perception, which is later on corrected.
>  In sunrise
>  >  example, there is no error in perception.
>  According to
>  >  perception - which is never corrected - sun
>  rises, period.
>  >
>  >
>  >  Point is, the event called sunrise is false, yet
>  we perceive
>  >  it 100 times out of 100 .... establishing that
>  even if
>  >  perception isn't faulty, it still gives us wrong
>  knowledge.
>  >  Also that if something is perceived, it doesn't
>  necessarily
>  >  have to be true. Sunrise (jagat) is clearly
>  perceived, yet
>  >  it is false. Earth's movement (Brahman) is not
>  perceived,
>  >  yet it is true.
>  >
>  >
>  >  So wouldn't the sunrise example be better in
>  explaining
>  >  maya, ignorance, and all the rest?
>  >
>  >
>  >  Thanks,
>  >  Suresh
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