[Advaita-l] Creation & Creator

[H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l]

Sri Vidyashankarji wrote



 << Yet, the issue with all these lines of discussion is this. They stay at
the level of vyavahAra, at the level of the individual jIva, presuming the
very multiplicity that advaita transcends. If all that is thought to be
real, then there can be really no moksha in the advaita sense. When we
think that in the macro sense, avidyA continues, is therefore ananta, and
that creation is eternal, we also need to ask, whose is that avidyA? One or
more jIvas that are not yet liberated? If so, then we have just presumed
that there are multiple real jIvas, distinct from one another. It will
follow that the difference between jIvas is also eternal. That would then
not be advaita, but only dvaita, and we might as well affirm the reality
and eternality of jIva-jIva bheda, jIva-ISvara bheda etc. >> .



 I draw attention to the phrase *If all that is thought to be real *in the
above statement. It is certainly not my intention to claim this. It is one
thing to highlight the nature of paramartha svarupa to attain which is
really the Goal / Sadhya. As part of the sadhanas needed to achieve that
Goal , lots of doubts need to be resolved for the jivas . Such doubts are
strongly entrenched in us and bind us to the opposite views. In fact that
is exactly what Nachiketas expresses to Yamadharmaraja in his third
question in Katha Up. To overcome them one needs to address these opposing
views, deliberate on them deeply ,  and overcome them with the help of
Shastra/Reasoning/Anubhava. It is only as part of this exercise the
questions posed in the above statement by Sri Vidyashankarji himself really
need to be deliberated upon and not just wished away. Such deliberation
only brings home the truth that all this is mithya. The conclusion by Sri
Vidyashankarji that such questioning leads to dvaita is in my view
unwarranted.



Regards


On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Yes, at the vyavahAra level, self-realization takes place at specific
> times to specific people. Yes, the avidyA that is destroyed with the rise
> of jnAna is with respect to that jIva, not other beings.
>
> Yet, the issue with all these lines of discussion is this. They stay at
> the level of vyavahAra, at the level of the individual jIva, presuming the
> very multiplicity that advaita transcends. If all that is thought to be
> real, then there can be really no moksha in the advaita sense. When we
> think that in the macro sense, avidyA continues, is therefore ananta, and
> that creation is eternal, we also need to ask, whose is that avidyA? One or
> more jIvas that are not yet liberated? If so, then we have just presumed
> that there are multiple real jIvas, distinct from one another. It will
> follow that the difference between jIvas is also eternal. That would then
> not be advaita, but only dvaita, and we might as well affirm the reality
> and eternality of jIva-jIva bheda, jIva-ISvara bheda etc.
>
> We need to make the leap from the vyavahAra to the paramArtha. That leap
> is enabled by Sankara bhagavatpAda, as he is very careful to say, "Adir na
> vidyate." He does not say, "Adir eva nAsti" and indeed goes out of his way
> to point out that the word anAdI in the gItA verse quoted below should not
> be split as "na AdI anAdI."
>
> Best regards,
> Vidyasankar
>
>
> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 20:52:24 +0530
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator
> From: hschandramouli at gmail.com
> To: svidyasankar at hotmail.com; advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> Sri Vidyashankarji wrote
>
>  <<  Please note that avidyA is also constantly said to
> be anAdi in vedAnta discourse. Obviously, this is never meant in the same
> sense
> as saying that brahman is anAdi.>>.
>
>
>  What exactly is the difference as far as “
> anaditva “ is concerned. Please clarify. The only difference is that
> avidya is
> subject to sa-vikara,  sa-avayava, sa-anta
> ( in parts ) etc. Otherwise in so far as anaditva is concerned, I thought
> there
> was no difference from the “ anaditva”  of Brahman . Though avidya is
> considered to be
> sa-anta , because it is destroyed on the rising of jnana, still it is only
> in
> respect of the particular jiva only. In the macro sense, it continues and
> is
> ananta also from that perspective. When it is remembered that it is the
> Shakti
> of Brahman, it automatically means it also is anadi and anata just as
> Brahman ,
> but again with modification etc.
>
>
> << This is actually a false construction, because
> self-realization is really not an experience, nor an event in time for
> anybody
> anywhere, although it appears to happen at specific instances of time to
> specific people. That is the whole point of all advaita vedAnta
> teaching.>> .
>
>
>
> This really needs
> elaboration. We are dealing with the situation as obtains in the
> vyavaharika
> plane. At this level surely selfrealization does indeed take place at
> specific
> times to specific people. How can it be held to be otherwise ? I am not
> clear. Please clarify.
>
>
> Regards
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> I presume you are referring to the verse
>
> प्रकृतिं पुरुषं चैव विद्ध्यनादी उभावपि ।विकारांश्च गुणांश्चैव विद्धि
> प्रकृतिसंभवान् ॥
>
>
>
> You have to clarify what you mean by the word eternal, in your question.
> Please note that avidyA is also constantly said to be anAdi in vedAnta
> discourse. Obviously, this is never meant in the same sense as saying that
> brahman is anAdi.
>
>
> What fuels creation despite self-realization by an individual human being?
> If you take the verse above in the entire context of the 13th chapter, the
> answer is obvious. It is ISvara, the जगदुत्पत्तिस्थितिप्रलयहेतुः. "When all
> beings have self-realization eventually" is a hypothetical situation that
> views self-realization(s) as multiple events of a particular experience,
> that happens within the arrow of time. This is actually a false
> construction, because self-realization is really not an experience, nor an
> event in time for anybody anywhere, although it appears to happen at
> specific instances of time to specific people. That is the whole point of
> all advaita vedAnta teaching.
>
>
> Best regards,Vidyasankar
>
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:20:12 -0700
>
> > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> > Subject: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator
>
> > From: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
>
> >
>
> > Namaskaram,
>
> >
>
> > I would like to know from Advaita perspective if creation is also
> eternal. We all know that Creator is eternal, but how about creation?
> Bhagawad Gita 13/20 says both are eternal.
>
> >
>
> > When self-realization puts end to birth in the samsara, and when
> self-realization is the final goal of all beings, it is just a matter of
> time when this would happen to all. What is sure is that all would
> eventually experience it, and thus there is no birth. When all beings have
> self-realization eventually, then, where is the need for creation. But
> Bhagawad Gita 13/20 says both are eternal. My question is what fuels the
> eternal continuity of creation despite self-realization? I am sure, this
> topic might have been discussed in the past but I might have missed it.
> Please pardon me for asking it again.
>
>
> >
>
> > Namaskara,
>
> > ramesh
>
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