[Advaita-l] Creation & Creator

[Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l]

Please note, I'm not saying that questioning will lead to dvaita. I'm saying that questioning without constantly re-examining our presumptions can be misleading. The base presumptions in this particular case relate to the eternality of creation and the notion of realization as an event in time, happening to particular jIva-s and not to other jIva-s.
 
At some point in discourse towards clearing doubts in this regard, one does have to understand why gauDapAda says that ultimately, there is no one bound and no one getting released (... na baddho na ca sAdhakaH | na mumukshur na vai mukta iti ... - kArikA 2.32). One does have to take that into account when one says that creation continues in the macro sense, even after self-realization happens to a particular person in the individual sense. The paramArtha perspective makes a huge difference to how we should address the vyavahAra perspective, because without it, we are always in the dvaita of vyavahAra. That is what I meant to say. Hope this clarifies my stance.
 
Best regards,
Vidyasankar
 
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:16:13 +0530
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator
From: hschandramouli at gmail.com
To: svidyasankar at hotmail.com; advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org

Sri Vidyashankarji wrote

 

 << Yet, the
issue with all these lines of discussion is this. They stay at the level of
vyavahAra, at the level of the individual jIva, presuming the very multiplicity
that advaita transcends. If all that is thought to be real, then there can be
really no moksha in the advaita sense. When we think that in the macro sense,
avidyA continues, is therefore ananta, and that creation is eternal, we also
need to ask, whose is that avidyA? One or more jIvas that are not yet
liberated? If so, then we have just presumed that there are multiple real
jIvas, distinct from one another. It will follow that the difference between
jIvas is also eternal. That would then not be advaita, but only dvaita, and we
might as well affirm the reality and eternality of jIva-jIva bheda, jIva-ISvara
bheda etc. >> .

 

 I draw attention to the phrase If all that is thought to be real in
the above statement. It is certainly not my intention to claim this. It is one
thing to highlight the nature of paramartha svarupa to attain which is really
the Goal / Sadhya. As part of the sadhanas needed to achieve that Goal , lots
of doubts need to be resolved for the jivas . Such doubts are strongly
entrenched in us and bind us to the opposite views. In fact that is exactly
what Nachiketas expresses to Yamadharmaraja in his third question in Katha Up. To
overcome them one needs to address these opposing views, deliberate on them
deeply ,  and overcome them with the help
of Shastra/Reasoning/Anubhava. It is only as part of this exercise the
questions posed in the above statement by Sri Vidyashankarji himself really
need to be deliberated upon and not just wished away. Such deliberation only
brings home the truth that all this is mithya. The conclusion by Sri
Vidyashankarji that such questioning leads to dvaita is in my view unwarranted.


 

Regards


On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

Yes, at the vyavahAra level, self-realization takes place at specific times to specific people. Yes, the avidyA that is destroyed with the rise of jnAna is with respect to that jIva, not other beings.



Yet, the issue with all these lines of discussion is this. They stay at the level of vyavahAra, at the level of the individual jIva, presuming the very multiplicity that advaita transcends. If all that is thought to be real, then there can be really no moksha in the advaita sense. When we think that in the macro sense, avidyA continues, is therefore ananta, and that creation is eternal, we also need to ask, whose is that avidyA? One or more jIvas that are not yet liberated? If so, then we have just presumed that there are multiple real jIvas, distinct from one another. It will follow that the difference between jIvas is also eternal. That would then not be advaita, but only dvaita, and we might as well affirm the reality and eternality of jIva-jIva bheda, jIva-ISvara bheda etc.




We need to make the leap from the vyavahAra to the paramArtha. That leap is enabled by Sankara bhagavatpAda, as he is very careful to say, "Adir na vidyate." He does not say, "Adir eva nAsti" and indeed goes out of his way to point out that the word anAdI in the gItA verse quoted below should not be split as "na AdI anAdI."




Best regards,

Vidyasankar





Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 20:52:24 +0530

Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator

From: hschandramouli at gmail.com

To: svidyasankar at hotmail.com; advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org



Sri Vidyashankarji wrote



 <<  Please note that avidyA is also constantly said to

be anAdi in vedAnta discourse. Obviously, this is never meant in the same sense

as saying that brahman is anAdi.>>.





 What exactly is the difference as far as “

anaditva “ is concerned. Please clarify. The only difference is that avidya is

subject to sa-vikara,  sa-avayava, sa-anta

( in parts ) etc. Otherwise in so far as anaditva is concerned, I thought there

was no difference from the “ anaditva”  of Brahman . Though avidya is considered to be

sa-anta , because it is destroyed on the rising of jnana, still it is only in

respect of the particular jiva only. In the macro sense, it continues and is

ananta also from that perspective. When it is remembered that it is the Shakti

of Brahman, it automatically means it also is anadi and anata just as Brahman ,

but again with modification etc.





<< This is actually a false construction, because

self-realization is really not an experience, nor an event in time for anybody

anywhere, although it appears to happen at specific instances of time to

specific people. That is the whole point of all advaita vedAnta teaching.>> .







This really needs

elaboration. We are dealing with the situation as obtains in the vyavaharika

plane. At this level surely selfrealization does indeed take place at specific

times to specific people. How can it be held to be otherwise ? I am not clear. Please clarify.





Regards





On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:



I presume you are referring to the verse



प्रकृतिं पुरुषं चैव विद्ध्यनादी उभावपि ।विकारांश्च गुणांश्चैव विद्धि प्रकृतिसंभवान् ॥







You have to clarify what you mean by the word eternal, in your question. Please note that avidyA is also constantly said to be anAdi in vedAnta discourse. Obviously, this is never meant in the same sense as saying that brahman is anAdi.






What fuels creation despite self-realization by an individual human being? If you take the verse above in the entire context of the 13th chapter, the answer is obvious. It is ISvara, the जगदुत्पत्तिस्थितिप्रलयहेतुः. "When all beings have self-realization eventually" is a hypothetical situation that views self-realization(s) as multiple events of a particular experience, that happens within the arrow of time. This is actually a false construction, because self-realization is really not an experience, nor an event in time for anybody anywhere, although it appears to happen at specific instances of time to specific people. That is the whole point of all advaita vedAnta teaching.






Best regards,Vidyasankar







> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:20:12 -0700



> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org



> Subject: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator



> From: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org



>



> Namaskaram,



>



> I would like to know from Advaita perspective if creation is also eternal. We all know that Creator is eternal, but how about creation? Bhagawad Gita 13/20 says both are eternal.



>



> When self-realization puts end to birth in the samsara, and when self-realization is the final goal of all beings, it is just a matter of time when this would happen to all. What is sure is that all would eventually experience it, and thus there is no birth. When all beings have self-realization eventually, then, where is the need for creation. But Bhagawad Gita 13/20 says both are eternal. My question is what fuels the eternal continuity of creation despite self-realization? I am sure, this topic might have been discussed in the past but I might have missed it. Please pardon me for asking it again.






>



> Namaskara,



> ramesh



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