[Advaita-l] viShNu and caturbhuja viShNu

[Sujal Upadhyay via Advaita-l]

Namaste Subramanian ji,

A request: Please can you upload your articles on scribd or slide share or
on google docs. Mediafire has annoying pops-ups.

Hari OM


On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Sujal Upadhyay <sujal.u at gmail.com> wrote:

> Pranams Subramaniam ji,
>
> Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I think I have read this one from your
> blog. But didnt copy pasted it since it's your own hard work I am a good
> boy :)
>
> Hari OM
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:46 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You may also note the following details:
>>
>> Viṣṇu’s status as a created deity
>>
>>
>>
>> The Rgvedic mantra: *सोमः पवते* जनिता मतीनां जनिता दिवो जनिता पृथिव्या:।
>> जनिताग्नेर्जनिता सूर्यस्य जनितेन्द्रस्य जनितोत विष्णोः 9.5
>>
>> has been commented upon by Sāyaṇācārya as Soma who is praised is the
>> creator of the intellects, the heavens, the earth.  Also he is the
>> originator of sūrya, indra and viṣṇu, the all-pervading.
>>
>> In the subsequent mantra we have:
>>
>> *ब्रह्मा देवानां*पदवीः कवीनामृषिर्विप्राणां महिषो मृगाणाम् . श्येनो
>> गृध्राणाँस्वधितिर्वनानाँसोमः पवित्रमत्येति रेभन्  9.6
>>
>> In this mantra which continues from the fifth mantra, Sāyaṇācārya says:
>> Soma, of the earlier mantra, is assuming the post of brahmā in a sacrifice.
>> Alternatively, the commentator says: soma is the head, ‘king’, of all the
>> deva-s such as indra, stated in the previous mantra.
>>
>> Thus, from a study of these two mantras/commentaries we conclude that
>> according to Sāyaṇācārya, viṣṇu is a created deity.
>>
>> In the Taittiriyopaniṣad shanti mantra bhāṣya, Shankaracharya has said
>> that viṣṇu is the abhimānidevatā, presiding deity, for the limb, leg.  Also,
>> Shankara in that bhāṣya has said that vāyu is the one responsible for
>> delivering the fruits of actions to all, thereby placing vāyu above viṣṇu.
>>
>> At the beginning of the bhashyam for the Prashnopanishat 2nd chapter,
>> Shankara says;
>>
>> प्राणोऽत्ता प्रजापतिरित्युक्तम् । तस्य प्रजापतित्वमत्तृत्वं
>> चास्मिञ्शरीरेऽवधारयितव्यमित्ययं प्रश्न आरभ्यते ।
>>
>> Prāṇa the consumer is stated to be the Prajāpati.  This, its being the
>> prajāpati and the consumer, is being demonstrated in this body.
>>
>> In the 9th mantra of this Chapter we have:
>>
>>
>> इन्द्रस्त्वं प्राण तेजसा रुद्रोऽसि परिरक्षिता ।
>> त्वमन्तरिक्षे चरसि सूर्यस्त्वं ज्योतिषां पतिः ॥ ९ ॥
>>
>> 9     Indra thou art, O Prana, and Rudra, too, in prowess. Thou art the
>> Protector. Thou movest in the sky; thou art the sun, the lord of lights.
>>
>> The bhāṣya says:
>> किंच, इन्द्रः परमेश्वरः त्वं हे प्राण, तेजसा वीर्येण रुद्रोऽसि
>> संहरन्जगत् । स्थितौ च परि समन्तात् रक्षिता पालयिता; परिरक्षिता त्वमेव
>> जगतःसौम्येन रूपेण । त्वम् अन्तरिक्षे अजस्रं चरसि उदयास्तमयाभ्यां
>> सूर्यःत्वमेव च सर्वेषां ज्योतिषां पतिः ॥
>>
>> Further, O Prana, you are Indra, the Supreme Lord.  By valour you are
>> Rudra, engaged in destroying the world.  Again, during the time of the
>> existence of the universe, you, in your  benign aspect, are the
>> preserver (of the universe) on every side.  You move for ever in the sky
>> by rising and setting.  You are the sun, the lord of all the luminaries.
>>
>> For the above highlighted portion, Anandagiri, the authoritative
>> sub-commentator, says: विष्ण्वादिरूपेण इत्यrथः । ( You, through the form
>> of Vishnu, etc.)
>>
>> Now, this upanishad itself stated that Prana is Prajapati., the Creator.
>> And in this mantra we have Rdura, another form of prāṇa, being stated as
>> the world-destroyer.  And Vishnu (the benign form, as opposed to the
>> valorous form of Rudra) is the Protector of the world.  Since the Creator,
>> Protector and Destroyer are all said to be the forms of Prana we see that
>> Rudra, named in the mantra itself, Vishnu not named in the mantra as well
>> as the bhashya but named by Anandagiri, on the implication of the word
>> 'vishnu' are all 'created' ones.
>>
>> The sequence is thus:  The PuruSha, Supreme Brahman, creates prāṇa,
>> called Hiraṇyagarbha.  From this Hirānyagarbha, the creator of all the
>> objects, names / forms, both sentient and insentient, the deva-s too are
>> created.  The mantra that we saw above lists these.  Indra, etc. including
>> Rudra, for destruction function and Vishnu for protection function, are all
>> manifestations of this Prana (Hiranyagarbha).  While up to this it is all
>> within the realm of creation, the ONLY entity that transcends creation is
>> the Puruṣa who is the subject matter of the Sixth Praṣna, the final chapter
>> of this upaniṣad.
>>
>> The point to be noted is: This upaniṣad provides a very interesting
>> instance of Rudra and Vishnu as particular functionaries, with allotted
>> portfolios, along with Indra, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> AppayyaDikṣita in his works on portraying Shiva as the Supreme has cited
>> the above Rg. Vedic mantra as authority for the created nature of Viṣṇu and
>> asked, if Rudra has birth, why not Viṣṇu?
>>
>>
>>
>> The sūtasamhitā, which is a part of the skandapurāṇa, too shows Viṣṇu as
>> one of the deities who get instructions from the Supreme Shiva.
>>
>>
>> It should also be kept in mind that in Advaita the saguna brahman is a
>> superimposition on Nirguna Brahman.  And as such the saguna brahman derives
>> its consciousness and power from Brahman and māyā.  In the absence of these
>> two, the consciousness and power, saguṇa brahman is a non-entity.
>>
>>
>> It follows from the above that whenever it is said that all the j'iva-s
>> (including devatās like Shiva, Indra, Brahmā) are controlled by Viṣṇu as
>> the antaryāmin, it is also to be kept in mind that Viṣṇu the antaryāmin too
>> has Nirguṇa brahman as his antaryāmin chaitanya.  On the basis of the
>> kenopanishad initial mantras, no entity in creation can act without the
>> backing of the Pure consciousness.  So, if Viṣṇu were to be regarded as the
>> antaryāmin of all else, then even Viṣṇu has / gets the power to do so only
>> from Nirguna Brahman Pure Consciousness.  The name-formed Viṣṇu as the
>> Parameshwara being a superimposition on Nirguna Brahman, it is essential
>> that the Consciousness/power of Viṣṇu is derived from NB and māyā.
>> Vaiṣṇavas might not like this explanation but Advaita has no problem in
>> having it this way.
>>
>>
>> regards
>>
>> subrahmanian.v
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Sujal Upadhyay <sujal.u at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaste Subramaniam ji,
>>>
>>> Yes. That is what I have understood too. The reason for saying viShNu as
>>> a person in 11th Chapter is because our AcArya has faithfully explained
>>> what arjuna had said.
>>>
>>> I went ahead quoting viShNu and bhAgavat purANa for understanding that
>>> viShNu is not caturbhuja viShNu.
>>>
>>> Conclusions in brief
>>>
>>>
>>>    1. Whenever any form of ISvara is described as 'that which is
>>>    worshipped as AtmasvarUpa in heart', it is always nirguNa brahman.
>>>    2. brahman is GYanasvarUpa and is nirguNa only, but is seen by 5
>>>    senses as having guNa-s due to faulty vision.
>>>    3. viShNu is not always carutbhUja viShNu. viShNu or nArAyana when
>>>    described as substratum of entire universe as the sole creator, preserver
>>>    and destroyer, and as the source of all avatAra-s then not catur-bhUja
>>>    viShNu, the deity of preservation, but brahman.
>>>    4. viShNu is sometimes taken as pradhAna prakruti meaning it is
>>>    feminine form, SAkti of nirguNa brahman.
>>>    5. viShNu or any form of ISvara is saguNa brahman and is the closest
>>>    manifested form of brahman, and hence this all-powerful form 'viShNu' is
>>>    worthy of worship
>>>    6. When is it said, 'I am you *and* you are me', then it confirms
>>>    non-duality. e.g. if viShNu bhagavAn says that I am Siva', but Siva never
>>>    says that 'I am viShNu', then one can understand that Siva is a part of
>>>    viShNu, but when viShNu says, 'I am you and you are me', then it confirms
>>>    non-duality. In the same way, at one instance, viShNu says 'I am Siva,
>>>    brahmA, etc' and at a separate instance, Siva says, 'I am viShNu, brahmA,
>>>    etc', then this too confirms non-duality.
>>>    7. 'I' or 'Me' in gItA can be taken as 'brahman'
>>>
>>> Thank you for the link. I was very buy these days and so skipped that
>>> article. I will surely read it.
>>>
>>> OM
>>>
>>> Sujal
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 11:24 PM, V Subrahmanian <
>>> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shankara has not referred to 'Viṣṇu' and other names as the one with
>>>> chaturbhuja, etc.  The only reference is in the BG 11th chapter end where
>>>> Arjuna, unable to bear the fearsome viśwarūpa, wants Krishna to resume His
>>>> benign chaturbhuja form and this is specific to the Krishna avatāra.
>>>>
>>>> A detailed analysis of the question as to whether Shankara identified
>>>> or preferred any deity as saguṇa brahman, be it Viṣṇu or Śiva or any other,
>>>> is available in an article I posted a few weeks ago:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.mediafire.com/view/z3kwt9h1kr87fem/Shankara_pref_deity.pdf
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>> subrahmanian.v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Sujal Upadhyay via Advaita-l <
>>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> || Hari OM ||
>>>>>
>>>>> Pranams,
>>>>>
>>>>> Please read article viShNu and caturbhuja viShNu
>>>>> <http://www.advaita-vedanta.in/vishnu>
>>>>>
>>>>> We can understand from the commentaries by Sri Adi SankarAcArya ji
>>>>> that he
>>>>> use to refer to kruShNa, nArAyaNa, viShNu, hari as brahman. Did our
>>>>> AcArya
>>>>> really meant caturbhuja viShNu or is it something different.
>>>>>
>>>>> OM
>>>>>
>>>>> Sujal
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>>>>
>>>
>>
>