[Advaita-l] AVASTHATRAYA

[Werlings]

Dear List Members,

Not being learned in any way on the subject, nor being a scholar, if I 
dare to send you a small contribution on the subject, the only reason is 
that since I was first exposed to Advaita Vedanta in 1961, at the rather 
early age of 14 years and a half, I decided to dedicate the rest of my 
life to avasthAtraya-vicAra, and to the daily reading and study of the 
GauDapAdIya kArikA.

Not being competent enough, I shall not try to answer in their sequence 
to all the points raised by shrii Sreenivasa Murthy.

In 1961, I bought the four volumes of “The Cultural Heritage of India” 
reprintedin 1953 and first published in 1937 by the Ramakrishna Mission 
Institute of culture Calcutta to commemorate the first centennial of the 
birth of Shri Ramakrishna.

In the third volume “PHILOSOPHIES”, I read with interest and article 
written by Shri K.A.Krishnaswamy Iyer philosophy of the advaita, page 
219, from which I quote the following hoping it may be of interest and 
hoping also you will not find it too long:

Besides, in speaking of sleep and dream our intellect, which can grasp 
things only as external objects, plays a trick with us which we never 
suspect. Though they are independent of waking, we yet reduce them to 
the terms of waking. When did he sleep? How long? —are questions which 
hide the contradictions they involve. They are not like the questions 
relating to waking acts as, When did he come? How long did he stay? In 
the latter case the acts are placed in the waking and quite correctly. 
But we extend the same form of expression to sleep and dream, though 
these are not waking acts and hence cannot be measured in term of waking 
duration. When [page 220] did he sleep? — is a plain contradiction for 
it would mean, At what point of waking time did he sleep? —implying 
thereby that sleeping is a waking act! Similarly, the states are not 
external things which we cognize by means of our intellect. They are 
known to us as immediacies by intuition. We intuit sleep and dream and 
what is more surprising, we intuit our waking also. For, consider the 
dilemma — Do we wake first and then perceive the world and then wake to 
it? The latter is self-contradictory, since perception presupposes 
waking. The former is equally untenable as the order in which the 
sequence takes place —waking, perceiving — requires the basis of time, 
and waking time would commence before waking! If it were otherwise, the 
estate would be continuous and their difference in character would be an 
inexplicable puzzle....

Even if the above does not correctly and completely answers to the 
questions a-1 to a-3, I hope they throw nevertheless some light on the 
subject.

Still those lines do not touch at all the question a-4. To try to help 
on the subject, I shall there quote from another English writing 
Vedantin of the XX^th century, rAjasEvAsAkta V. Subrahmanya Iyer, 
formerly Registrar of the University of Mysore and during many years 
lecturer of philosophy of His Highness the mahArAja of Mysore 
Krishnaraja Wadiyar Bahadur IV

the following paragraph is taken from the posthumous notes of Paul 
Brunton published in 1999 by Mr. Mark Scorelle, U.S.A.

§2197: Turiya is not the fourth state: Turiya is that in which all the 
others are merged; or it may be called the witness, which sees the other 
three states.which Ida

Thus to the question Then who is that 'I' that is common to all these 
states?  [a-5], the answer seems to be this “I” is TurIya also called 
the sAkShin in Vedanta.

Regards,

Guy Werlings



Le 26/04/2015 19:00, advaita-l-request at lists.advaita-vedanta.org a écrit :
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>     1. AVASTHATRAYA (sreenivasa murthy)
>     2. Re: AVASTHATRAYA (kuntimaddi sadananda)
>     3. Can anybody tell the brief history of north Indian	amnaya
>        peethams (Srivathsa Rao)
>     4. Re: Humble request to all brahmins (Srivathsa Rao)
>     5. Re: Query: vAnaprasthAShrama   (Animesh)
>     6.  Query: vAnaprasthASh (Animesh)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 00:55:59 +0000 (UTC)
> From: sreenivasa murthy <narayana145 at yahoo.co.in>
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] AVASTHATRAYA
> Message-ID:
> 	<1697070354.2689330.1430009759054.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>   From : H.N.Sreenivasa MurthyPranams to all.Dear learned members,
>      A  friend of mine whois a serious student of Vedanta asked me the following questions:
>
>   [a-1] : The states of waking, dream and deepsleep, are these states thatare events that occur in time?
>
>   [a-2] Do these events occur in space ?
>
>   [a-3] Do these events occur in the same time/space series? [a-4] I appropriatethese events to myself. Then who is that 'I' that is common to all these states?  [a-5] Is it possible to getanswers to these questions from LIFE only without referring to any scriptures ?
>
> I request the members to throw light on these questions.
> With warm and respectful regards,
>    Sreenivasa Murthy.
> With respectful regards,Sreenivasa Murthy
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 18:49:14 -0700
> From: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>,  sreenivasa murthy
> 	<narayana145 at yahoo.co.in>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] AVASTHATRAYA
> Message-ID:
> 	<1430012954.13754.YahooMailBasic at web163006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Sreenivasa murthyji - PraNAms
>
> Here is my understanding.
>
> To define space and time we need a reference state. Time is a gap between two sequential events by an observer (conscious entity) and space is gap between two simultaneous observations.  The waking state is most general state where will full work can go on and also where one not only exhausts his Vasanaans but can accumulate new ones and where one can gain the knowledge by developing appropriate viveka by sadhana. Hence waking state from the universal reference states.
>
> >From that reference, one goes to sleep in time and space (say in the house-bed room, or hotel room, etc) and also for a length of time - all related to the waking state.
>
> With the reference to dreamer the space-time coordinates and the measurements also shift. Dreamer will have his own coordinates that can differ from waker's point. Hence from waker's point the space-time coordinates do not match or nor one can make a relationship or transformation matrix for it.
>
> In deep sleep state - there is no space and time - experience. One transcends both but yet not recognized by the deep-sleeper since mind is also folded.
>
> Hence one cannot independently analyze since analysis involves a waker's reference other than any fragmentary remembrances of  dream experiences and restful-ness of the deep-sleep state. One can measure by electrodes the electrical signal that are relevant to the brain but that is only waker's reference.
>
> Dreams can be analyzed by a waker using his own psychological theories.
>
> The analysis of the underlying truth - the turiiyam aspect - only Vedanta is pramaana.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 4/25/15, sreenivasa murthy via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>   Subject: [Advaita-l] AVASTHATRAYA
>   To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>   Date: Saturday, April 25, 2015, 8:55 PM
>   
>    From : H.N.Sreenivasa MurthyPranams
>   to all.Dear learned members,
>       A  friend of mine whois a serious student of Vedanta
>   asked me the following questions:
>   
>    [a-1] : The states of waking, dream and deepsleep, are
>   these states thatare events that occur in time?
>   
>    [a-2] Do these events occur in space ?
>   
>    [a-3] Do these events occur in the same time/space
>   series? [a-4] I appropriatethese events to myself. Then who
>   is that 'I' that is common to all these states?  [a-5] Is
>   it possible to getanswers to these questions from LIFE only
>   without referring to any scriptures ?
>   
>   I request the members to throw light on these questions.
>   With warm and respectful regards,
>     Sreenivasa Murthy.
>   With respectful regards,Sreenivasa Murthy
>   _______________________________________________
>   Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 12:18:49 +0530
> From: Srivathsa Rao <vathsa108 at gmail.com>
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] Can anybody tell the brief history of north
> 	Indian	amnaya peethams
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAL4VCfPB37Co+tq918OF9XkbienRt+GfK9pYymCq655r2hNkBA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Namaskaaram,
>
>                               I herd that north indian amnaya peetham,don't
> have CONTINUES lineage of guruparampara as that of sringeri sharada peetham.
>
> What is the reason for that?
>
> And also I even heard that jothir math of badrinath,uttarakand....din't
> have peethadipathi for over centuries.....
>
> Is it because of muslim attack???
>
>
> Can any leaned scholars tell the reason for this??
>
>
> reagards,
> Srivathsa Rao I
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 12:57:58 +0530
> From: Srivathsa Rao <vathsa108 at gmail.com>
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> 	<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Humble request to all brahmins
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAL4VCfOmb2ngF9mHL7a2HtkMnuXLqdGJPgrNS_L4qyre5haqqQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Namaskaar to all,
>
>   As I have said jaldar vyas sir ,that I will not post such thing in
> advaitha form...
>
> Hearing my humble request he took me back to advaitha form....I am very
> much thanks  for that...
>
> Now I want to  reply to one of jaldhar sir's point ...that is
> he says....
>
> Advaita-l is also not a forum for politics.  There are plenty of other
> places where you can complain about the Indian government.
>
> For this my reply is.....
>
> That day,I requested all brahmins to tell their cast as just brahmins,and
> asked them to not tell their cast name,when census people come to their
> home.Thus brahmins should show our unity to govenment.Here I am not
> complaining about indian government.I am just telling how other are trying
> to divide brahmins.
>
> As a brahmin ,I have to tell all my  brahmin bandhus to notice this and
> show their unity to government.Here I am not asking brahmin bandhus to
> protest against this with government.Here I am just trying to
> make awareness among brahmins.
>
> I even heard that ,they have Plan  to give reservation to brahmins,based
>   on brahmin subcast .....
>
> Now tell me weather my that post is irrelevant to your advaitha form?...
>
>
> You people talk about history,but not concerned about present day
> situation.....
>
> Karnataka Government already started the census,it will continue till 30th
> of this month.....
>
> So,this email is specially dedicated to all karnataka brahmin bandhus......
>
> regards,
> Srivathsa Rao I
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Srivathsa Rao <vathsa108 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Namaskaar to all,
>>
>>   As I have said jaldar vyas sir ,that I will not post such thing in
>> advaitha form...
>>
>> Hearing my humble request he took me back to advaitha form....I am very
>> much thanks  for that...
>>
>> Now I want to  reply to one of jaldhar sir's point ...that is
>> he says....
>>
>> Advaita-l is also not a forum for politics.  There are plenty of other
>> places where you can complain about the Indian government.
>>
>> For this my reply is.....
>>
>> That day,I requested all brahmins to tell their cast as just brahmins,and
>> asked them to not tell their cast name,when census people come to their
>> home.Thus brahmins should show our unity to govenment.Here I am not
>> complaining about indian government.I am just telling how other are trying
>> to divide brahmins.
>>
>> As a brahmin ,I have to tell all my  brahmin bandhus to notice this and
>> show their unity to government.Here I am not asking brahmin bandhus to
>> protest against this with government.Here I am just trying to
>> make awareness among brahmins.
>>
>> I even heard that ,they are going to give reservation to brahmins,based
>>   on brahmin subcast .....
>>
>> Now tell me weather my that post is irrelevant to your advaitha form?...
>>
>>
>> You people talk about history,but not concerned about present day
>> situation.....
>>
>> regards,
>> Srivathsa Rao I
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Srivathsa Rao <vathsa108 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Namaskar to all,
>>>
>>> This time in cast wise census,the government is decided to ask subcast of
>>> brahmins like smartha,madhva or shree vaishanava.Thus government is trying
>>> to divide brahmins...
>>>
>>> So,my humble request to all brahmins ,to tell their cast as just
>>> brahmins...so,mention your subcast name to government.....
>>>
>>>
>>> Thus brahmins has to show their unity to the govenment...
>>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 20:50:41 +0530
> From: Animesh <darkdevil114 at rocketmail.com>
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Query: vAnaprasthAShrama
> Message-ID: <p8cj1spq16jt1h9e7e22puu4.1430061358175 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Namaste sir ,
>
> Following passage from manusmriti ( 6th chapter 1-28 shloks ) describes of vAnaprasthAShrama.
>
> 1. A twice-born Snataka, who has thus lived according to the law in the order of householders, may, taking a firm resolution and keeping his organs in subjection, dwell in the forest, duly.
> 2. When a householder sees his (skin) wrinkled, and (his hair) white, and. the sons of his sons, then he may resort to the forest.3. Abandoning all food raised by cultivation, and all his belongings, he may depart into the forest, either committing his wife to his sons, or accompanied by her.4. Taking with him the sacred fire and the implements required for domestic (sacrifices), he may go forth from the village into the forest and reside there, duly controlling his senses.5. Let him offer those five great sacrifices according to the rule, with various kinds of pure food fit for ascetics, or with herbs, roots, and fruit.
> 6. Let him wear a skin or tattered garment; let him bathe in the evening or in the morning; and let him always wear (his hair in) braids, the hair on his body, his beard, and his nails (being unclipped).
> 7. Let him perform the Bali-offering with such food as he eats, and give alms according to his ability; let him honour those who come to his hermitage with alms consisting of water, roots, and fruit.
> 8. Let him be always industrious in privately reciting the Veda; let him be patient of hardships, friendly (towards all), of collected mind, ever liberal and never a receiver of gifts, and compassionate towards all living creatures.
> 9. Let him offer, according to the law, the Agnihotra with three sacred fires, never omitting the new-moon and full-moon sacrifices at the proper time.
> 10. Let him also offer the Nakshatreshti, the Agrayana, and the Katurmasya (sacrifices), as well as the Turayana and likewise the Dakshayana, in due order.
> 11. With pure grains, fit for ascetics, which grow in spring and in autumn, and which he himself has collected, let him severally prepare the sacrificial cakes (purodasa) and the boiled messes (karu), as the law directs.
> 12. Having offered those most pure sacrificial viands, consisting of the produce of the forest, he may use the remainder for himself, (mixed with) salt prepared by himself.13. Let him eat vegetables that grow on dry land or in water, flowers, roots, and fruits, the productions of pure trees, and oils extracted from forest-fruits.14. Let him avoid honey, flesh, and mushrooms growing on the ground (or elsewhere, the vegetables called) Bhustrina, and Sigruka, and the Sleshmantaka fruit.
> 15. Let him throw away in the month of Asvina the food of ascetics, which he formerly collected, likewise his worn-out clothes and his vegetables, roots, and fruit.16. Let him not eat anything (grown on) ploughed (land), though it may have been thrown away by somebody, nor roots and fruit grown in a village, though (he may be) tormented (by hunger).
> 17. He may eat either what has been cooked with fire, or what has been ripened by time; he either may use a stone for grinding, or his teeth may be his mortar.
> 18. He may either at once (after his daily meal) cleanse (his vessel for collecting food), or lay up a store sufficient for a month, or gather what suffices for six months or for a year.
> 19. Having collected food according to his ability, he may either eat at night (only), or in the day-time (only), or at every fourth meal-time, or at every eighth.20. Or he may live according to the rule of the lunar penance (Kandrayana, daily diminishing the quantity of his food) in the bright (half of the month) and (increasing it) in the dark (half); or he may eat on the last days of each fortnight, once (a day only), boiled barley-gruel.
> 21. Or he may constantly subsist on flowers, roots, and fruit alone, which have been ripened by time and have fallen spontaneously, following the rule of the (Institutes) of Vikhanas.
> 22. Let him either roll about on the ground, or stand during the day on tiptoe, (or) let him alternately stand and sit down; going at the Savanas (at sunrise, at midday, and at sunset) to water in the forest (in order to bathe).23. In summer let him expose himself to the heat of five fires, during the rainy season live under the open sky, and in winter be dressed in wet clothes, (thus) gradually increasing (the rigour of) his austerities.24. When he bathes at the three Savanas (sunrise, midday, and sunset), let him offer libations of water to the manes and the gods, and practising harsher and harsher austerities, let him dry up his bodily frame.
> 25. Having reposited the three sacred fires in himself, according to the prescribed rule, let him live without a fire, without a house, wholly silent, subsisting on roots and fruit,
> 26. Making no effort (to procure) things that give pleasure, chaste, sleeping on the bare ground, not caring for any shelter, dwelling at the roots of trees.27. From Brahmanas , ascetics, let him receive to alms.
>
> Regards
> Animesha
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 21:03:58 +0530
> From: Animesh <darkdevil114 at rocketmail.com>
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Subject: [Advaita-l]  Query: vAnaprasthASh
> Message-ID: <9cogs69671ho01ljc87j70rc.1430062410455 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Namaste sir ,
>
> Following passage from manusmriti ( 6th chapter 1-28 shloks ) describes of vAnaprasthAShrama.
>
> 1. A twice-born Snataka, who has thus lived according to the law in the order of householders, may, taking a firm resolution and keeping his organs in subjection, dwell in the forest, duly.
> 2. When a householder sees his (skin) wrinkled, and (his hair) white, and. the sons of his sons, then he may resort to the forest.3. Abandoning all food raised by cultivation, and all his belongings, he may depart into the forest, either committing his wife to his sons, or accompanied by her.4. Taking with him the sacred fire and the implements required for domestic (sacrifices), he may go forth from the village into the forest and reside there, duly controlling his senses.5. Let him offer those five great sacrifices according to the rule, with various kinds of pure food fit for ascetics, or with herbs, roots, and fruit.
> 6. Let him wear a skin or tattered garment; let him bathe in the evening or in the morning; and let him always wear (his hair in) braids, the hair on his body, his beard, and his nails (being unclipped).
> 7. Let him perform the Bali-offering with such food as he eats, and give alms according to his ability; let him honour those who come to his hermitage with alms consisting of water, roots, and fruit.
> 8. Let him be always industrious in privately reciting the Veda; let him be patient of hardships, friendly (towards all), of collected mind, ever liberal and never a receiver of gifts, and compassionate towards all living creatures.
> 9. Let him offer, according to the law, the Agnihotra with three sacred fires, never omitting the new-moon and full-moon sacrifices at the proper time.
> 10. Let him also offer the Nakshatreshti, the Agrayana, and the Katurmasya (sacrifices), as well as the Turayana and likewise the Dakshayana, in due order.
> 11. With pure grains, fit for ascetics, which grow in spring and in autumn, and which he himself has collected, let him severally prepare the sacrificial cakes (purodasa) and the boiled messes (karu), as the law directs.
> 12. Having offered those most pure sacrificial viands, consisting of the produce of the forest, he may use the remainder for himself, (mixed with) salt prepared by himself.13. Let him eat vegetables that grow on dry land or in water, flowers, roots, and fruits, the productions of pure trees, and oils extracted from forest-fruits.14. Let him avoid honey, flesh, and mushrooms growing on the ground (or elsewhere, the vegetables called) Bhustrina, and Sigruka, and the Sleshmantaka fruit.
> 15. Let him throw away in the month of Asvina the food of ascetics, which he formerly collected, likewise his worn-out clothes and his vegetables, roots, and fruit.16. Let him not eat anything (grown on) ploughed (land), though it may have been thrown away by somebody, nor roots and fruit grown in a village, though (he may be) tormented (by hunger).
> 17. He may eat either what has been cooked with fire, or what has been ripened by time; he either may use a stone for grinding, or his teeth may be his mortar.
> 18. He may either at once (after his daily meal) cleanse (his vessel for collecting food), or lay up a store sufficient for a month, or gather what suffices for six months or for a year.
> 19. Having collected food according to his ability, he may either eat at night (only), or in the day-time (only), or at every fourth meal-time, or at every eighth.20. Or he may live according to the rule of the lunar penance (Kandrayana, daily diminishing the quantity of his food) in the bright (half of the month) and (increasing it) in the dark (half); or he may eat on the last days of each fortnight, once (a day only), boiled barley-gruel.
> 21. Or he may constantly subsist on flowers, roots, and fruit alone, which have been ripened by time and have fallen spontaneously, following the rule of the (Institutes) of Vikhanas.
> 22. Let him either roll about on the ground, or stand during the day on tiptoe, (or) let him alternately stand and sit down; going at the Savanas (at sunrise, at midday, and at sunset) to water in the forest (in order to bathe).23. In summer let him expose himself to the heat of five fires, during the rainy season live under the open sky, and in winter be dressed in wet clothes, (thus) gradually increasing (the rigour of) his austerities.24. When he bathes at the three Savanas (sunrise, midday, and sunset), let him offer libations of water to the manes and the gods, and practising harsher and harsher austerities, let him dry up his bodily frame.
> 25. Having reposited the three sacred fires in himself, according to the prescribed rule, let him live without a fire, without a house, wholly silent, subsisting on roots and fruit,
> 26. Making no effort (to procure) things that give pleasure, chaste, sleeping on the bare ground, not caring for any shelter, dwelling at the roots of trees.27. From Brahmanas , ascetics, let him receive to alms.
>
> Regards
> Animesh
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Advaita-l Digest, Vol 129, Issue 23
> ******************************************