[Advaita-l] Weather vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?

Siva Senani Nori sivasenani at yahoo.com
Sun Aug 2 12:49:00 CDT 2015

NamasteSri Harsha Bhat
Letme start with BS 4.1.3 - आत्मेतितूपगच्छति ग्राहयन्ति च।("But[the Upanishads] acknowledge (Brahman) as the Self (AtmA) and make[others] understand [it as such]"). The question is whetherParamAtmA is the same as PratyagAtmA, or different. The Opponentargues that parameSvara is the one unaffected by pApa etc. whereasSArIra (the soul in a SarIra) has the opposite qualities and theycannot be the same. "Now, if God becomes identical with thetransmigrating soul, God will cease to exist; and as a result, thescriptures will become useless. Similarly if the transmigrating soulbecomes God, there will be none to follow the scriptures, which willcertainly become useless. This will also contradict such means ofproof as common experience."

BhagavatpAda'sreply is that "We hold that . . . the opposite characteristicsof the soul are unreal. The criticism is also unfounded that no onewill be left over to practice the Vedantic path and that directperception etc. will be outraged. For the transmigratory state isconceded before enlightenment, and activities like perception areconfined within that state only. . ."
Thenthe opponent tries to pin down the siddhAntin: "In the absenceof perception etc., the Vedas also will cease to exist." ToAcArya, this is not a problem, for he replies: "That is nodefect, since that position is admitted by us. For according to thetexts starting with 'In this state the father is no father' andending with 'The Vedas are no Vedas' (Br. IV. iii. 22), we do admitthe absence of the Vedas themselves in the state of enlightenment."
(Inthe above, text with quotation marks is the translation of SwamiGambhirananda).
Now,let us examine Br. Up. 4.3.22. The fourth Brahmana of the thirdAdhyaya starts with a question that Janaka (J) poses to Yajnavalkya(J). Sun is the first answer; J persists "what when the Sun hasset". Y offers Moon, and so on the series continues with Fire(when there is neither Sun nor Moon), Sound and finally AtmA. Thenstarts the enquiry into the nature of AtmA. There the journey of theSelf in the states of waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep areexpounded. While dealing with the last, the Upanishad teaches thatwhen a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent Self), then hedoes not know anything without or within. This state is described in4.3.22 - “Then a father is not a father, amother not a mother, the worlds not worlds, the gods not gods, theVedas not Vedas. Then a thief is not a thief, a murderer not amurderer, a Chandala not a Chandala, a Paulkasa not a Paulkasa, aSramana not a Sramana, a Tapasa not a Tapasa. He is not followed bygood, not followed by evil, for he has then overcome all the sorrowsof the heart.” (Max Muller's translation) (PaulkaSa is the son of aSudra father and a Kshatriya mother – i.e. a result of pratilomamarriage; Sramana is a mendicant).
HereAcArya explains pitRtvam as karma nimittam – for the sake ofKarma. Since the AtmA in the specified state is not connected toKarma, father is no longer a father. Similarly, mother. The worldsneed to be conquered by Karmas – that is the relation of the worldsto Karmas. In a state not connected to Karma, the worlds are nolonger the worlds. Devas are angas (subsidiaries) of Karmas (the mainangas of a sacrifice are deva and dravya) and so in the absence ofKarma, Devas and no longer Devas. Then he explains whey Vedas areAvedas:
तथावेदाः साध्यसाधनसम्बन्धाभिधायकाः,मन्त्रलक्षणाश्चाभिधायकत्वेनकर्माङ्गभूताः,अधीताःअध्येतव्याश्च कर्मनिमित्तमेवसम्भध्यते पुरुषेण,तत्कर्मातिक्रमणादेतस्मिन्काले वेदा अप्यवेदाः सम्पद्यते।
Herethe AcArya briefly describes the how Vedas are an anga of Karmas(sacrfices). They have mantras which describe the relation betweensAdhana (sacrifice) and sAdhya (svarga) and by virtue of thisdescription (अभिधायकत्वेन)they are a subsidiary of Karmas. These Vedas, which are learnt andare going to be learnt, are related to man only through Karma. In thestate which transcends Karmas, the Vedas are no longer Vedas.
Thoughthe Br. Up. Bhashya talks of Vedas only in terms of their relation toKarma, we should not understand that here Veda means Karmakanda only.From the Brahmasutrabhashya and Adhyasabhashya, it becomes clear thatVedas as a pramANa to know Brahman are no longer there once Brahmanis realized.
RegardsN.Siva Senani
      From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
 To: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> 
 Sent: Saturday, 1 August 2015 9:15 AM
 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Weather vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
Namaste Siva Sir,                                          Thanx for explanation........Can you please tell the that full vakhya of  Br. Up. 4.3.22 and  Bramhasutra 4.1.3

regards,Harsha Bhat
On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:27 AM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com> wrote:

The quoted sentence does not mean that Vedas are false ultimately. It is that Vedas have a specific purpose - to teach Brahman, and once that object is accomplished, they do not apply any longer.
The sentence referred by you occurs in Br. Up. 4.3.22. This is also quoted in the Bhashya on Bramhasutra 4.1.3. (वेदाः अवेदाः इति वचनात् इष्यते एव अस्माभिः श्रुतेः अपि अभावः प्रबोधे - due to the Sruti vaakya "vedAH avedAH", absence of Sruti is indeed desired by us in the state of enlightenment). 
In Adhyaasabhaashya, Bhagavatpada says अविद्यावद्विषयाणि एव प्रत्यक्षादीनि प्रमाणानि शास्त्राणि च (All pramanas like perception (pratyaksha) and Sastras (including Vedas) are subject to avidyaa). So, once avidyaa is removed those dependent on it, such as pramaanas (there is no difference amongst pramaatR, prameya, pramA and pramANa in the paaramaarthika view) and Saastras (which is the main pramaaNa in knowing Brahman) also dissolve into Brahman.
It is well known that Sannyaasins are not bound to perform any Vedic ritual - that is why they remove their Yajnopavitam. Whether they be enlightened or not, the intent is to reach a plane which is beyond Veda. However they do not ever say that Vedas are false ultimately.
RegardsN. Siva Senani
      From: Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> 
 Sent: Friday, 31 July 2015 10:24 PM
 Subject: [Advaita-l] Weather vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?

                                          Weather in any upanishad or
vedas ,they say vedas as "Aveda"?.
What is the pramana to say that vedas are false in ultimate reality?

For that one advaitha pandith gave me a vakhya "Vedaha Avedaha"...and he
says that this vakhya is from veda only...which says vedas are false in
ultimate reality.

Weather this vakhya is really present in any veda (upanishad)?

Can any learned scholar tell in which veda (Upanishad)..the vakhya "vedaha
avedhaha"..is present...and also tell me the meaning of this verse ,if this
vakhya really exists...

Harsha Bhat
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