[Advaita-l] Weather vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?

Harsha Bhat harsha9519 at gmail.com
Sun Aug 2 23:09:28 CDT 2015

Namaste Siva Sir,
                                  Very good explanation....I am very thank
full for that...

I completely understood the explanation......

But ,Please send me these two mantras(Direct vakhyas).... From ,Br. Up.
4.3.22 and  Bramhasutra 4.1.3
which tell about vedhaha avedhaha...

Harsha Bhat

On Sun, Aug 2, 2015 at 11:19 PM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>

> Namaste Sri Harsha Bhat
> Let me start with BS 4.1.3 - आत्मेति तूपगच्छति ग्राहयन्ति च। ("But [the
> Upanishads] acknowledge (Brahman) as the Self (AtmA) and make [others]
> understand [it as such]"). The question is whether ParamAtmA is the same as
> PratyagAtmA, or different. The Opponent argues that parameSvara is the one
> unaffected by pApa etc. whereas SArIra (the soul in a SarIra) has the
> opposite qualities and they cannot be the same. "Now, if God becomes
> identical with the transmigrating soul, God will cease to exist; and as a
> result, the scriptures will become useless. Similarly if the transmigrating
> soul becomes God, there will be none to follow the scriptures, which will
> certainly become useless. This will also contradict such means of proof as
> common experience."
> BhagavatpAda's reply is that "We hold that . . . the opposite
> characteristics of the soul are unreal. The criticism is also unfounded
> that no one will be left over to practice the Vedantic path and that direct
> perception etc. will be outraged. For the transmigratory state is conceded
> before enlightenment, and activities like perception are confined within
> that state only. . ."
> Then the opponent tries to pin down the siddhAntin: "In the absence of
> perception etc., the Vedas also will cease to exist." To AcArya, this is
> not a problem, for he replies: "That is no defect, since that position is
> admitted by us. For according to the texts starting with 'In this state the
> father is no father' and ending with 'The Vedas are no Vedas' (Br. IV. iii.
> 22), we do admit the absence of the Vedas themselves in the state of
> enlightenment."
> (In the above, text with quotation marks is the translation of Swami
> Gambhirananda).
> Now, let us examine Br. Up. 4.3.22. The fourth Brahmana of the third
> Adhyaya starts with a question that Janaka (J) poses to Yajnavalkya (J).
> Sun is the first answer; J persists "what when the Sun has set". Y offers
> Moon, and so on the series continues with Fire (when there is neither Sun
> nor Moon), Sound and finally AtmA. Then starts the enquiry into the nature
> of AtmA. There the journey of the Self in the states of waking, dreaming,
> and dreamless sleep are expounded. While dealing with the last, the
> Upanishad teaches that when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent
> Self), then he does not know anything without or within. This state is
> described in 4.3.22 - “Then a father is not a father, a mother not a
> mother, the worlds not worlds, the gods not gods, the Vedas not Vedas. Then
> a thief is not a thief, a murderer not a murderer, a Chandala not a
> Chandala, a Paulkasa not a Paulkasa, a Sramana not a Sramana, a Tapasa not
> a Tapasa. He is not followed by good, not followed by evil, for he has then
> overcome all the sorrows of the heart.” (Max Muller's translation)
> (PaulkaSa is the son of a Sudra father and a Kshatriya mother – i.e. a
> result of pratiloma marriage; Sramana is a mendicant).
> Here AcArya explains pitRtvam as karma nimittam – for the sake of Karma.
> Since the AtmA in the specified state is not connected to Karma, father is
> no longer a father. Similarly, mother. The worlds need to be conquered by
> Karmas – that is the relation of the worlds to Karmas. In a state not
> connected to Karma, the worlds are no longer the worlds. Devas are angas
> (subsidiaries) of Karmas (the main angas of a sacrifice are deva and
> dravya) and so in the absence of Karma, Devas and no longer Devas. Then he
> explains whey Vedas are Avedas:
> तथा वेदाः साध्यसाधनसम्बन्धाभिधायकाः, मन्त्रलक्षणाश्चाभिधायकत्वेन
> कर्माङ्गभूताः, अधीताः अध्येतव्याश्च कर्मनिमित्तमेव सम्भध्यते पुरुषेण, तत्कर्मातिक्रमणादेतस्मिन्
> काले वेदा अप्यवेदाः सम्पद्यते।
> Here the AcArya briefly describes the how Vedas are an anga of Karmas
> (sacrfices). They have mantras which describe the relation between sAdhana
> (sacrifice) and sAdhya (svarga) and by virtue of this description (
> अभिधायकत्वेन) they are a subsidiary of Karmas. These Vedas, which are
> learnt and are going to be learnt, are related to man only through Karma.
> In the state which transcends Karmas, the Vedas are no longer Vedas.
> Though the Br. Up. Bhashya talks of Vedas only in terms of their relation
> to Karma, we should not understand that here Veda means Karmakanda only.
> From the Brahmasutrabhashya and Adhyasabhashya, it becomes clear that Vedas
> as a pramANa to know Brahman are no longer there once Brahman is realized.
> Regards
> N. Siva Senani
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> *To:* Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for
> Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, 1 August 2015 9:15 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Advaita-l] Weather vedas are considered as false in
> ultimate reality?
> Namaste Siva Sir,
>                                           Thanx for explanation........
> Can you please tell the that full vakhya of  Br. Up. 4.3.22 and  Bramhasutra
> 4.1.3
> regards,
> Harsha Bhat
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2015 at 2:27 AM, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> The quoted sentence does not mean that Vedas are false ultimately. It is
> that Vedas have a specific purpose - to teach Brahman, and once that object
> is accomplished, they do not apply any longer.
> The sentence referred by you occurs in Br. Up. 4.3.22. This is also quoted
> in the Bhashya on Bramhasutra 4.1.3. (वेदाः अवेदाः इति वचनात् इष्यते एव
> अस्माभिः श्रुतेः अपि अभावः प्रबोधे - due to the Sruti vaakya "vedAH
> avedAH", absence of Sruti is indeed desired by us in the state of
> enlightenment).
> In Adhyaasabhaashya, Bhagavatpada says अविद्यावद्विषयाणि एव प्रत्यक्षादीनि
> प्रमाणानि शास्त्राणि च (All pramanas like perception (pratyaksha) and
> Sastras (including Vedas) are subject to avidyaa). So, once avidyaa is
> removed those dependent on it, such as pramaanas (there is no difference
> amongst pramaatR, prameya, pramA and pramANa in the paaramaarthika view)
> and Saastras (which is the main pramaaNa in knowing Brahman) also dissolve
> into Brahman.
> It is well known that Sannyaasins are not bound to perform any Vedic
> ritual - that is why they remove their Yajnopavitam. Whether they be
> enlightened or not, the intent is to reach a plane which is beyond Veda.
> However they do not ever say that Vedas are false ultimately.
> Regards
> N. Siva Senani
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> *To:* A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, 31 July 2015 10:24 PM
> *Subject:* [Advaita-l] Weather vedas are considered as false in ultimate
> reality?
> Namaste,
>                                           Weather in any upanishad or
> vedas ,they say vedas as "Aveda"?.
> What is the pramana to say that vedas are false in ultimate reality?
> For that one advaitha pandith gave me a vakhya "Vedaha Avedaha"...and he
> says that this vakhya is from veda only...which says vedas are false in
> ultimate reality.
> Weather this vakhya is really present in any veda (upanishad)?
> Can any learned scholar tell in which veda (Upanishad)..the vakhya "vedaha
> avedhaha"..is present...and also tell me the meaning of this verse ,if this
> vakhya really exists...
> regards,
> Harsha Bhat
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