[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality? Vadiraaja Tirtha's Nyaayaratnavali 357- 358

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

Vaadiraaja has taken wrong interpretation for Advaita's theory Sruti
is also not ultimate reality.

तद्दुग्धदोग्ध्री गौरेषा प्रक्षिपन्ती न कर्कटी ।
यन्मिथ्यात्वश्रुतिश्चाह न मिथ्यात्वं स्वनाशकम् ।
तत्सत्यार्थश्रुतेरर्थव्यत्यासाय श्रमो वृथा ॥
That Sruti is like a Cow giving milk but not like a female crab giving
birth. The Sruti speaking of Mithyaatva is not saying that Mithyaatva
itself will get destroyed. The Sruti is saying objects are real.
Therefore your effort to change the meaning of Sruti is a waste.

He is using Karkatee Garbha Nyaya. When a female crab gives birth it
dies after giving birth. He is saying Advaitis are treating Sruti like
a Karkatee. Sruti will give Brahma Jnana and immediately die itself.
How can this be correct? Sruti is not a female crab but like a Cow
giving milk. The Cow will not die by giving milk. The milk is Brahma
Jnana but it will not make Sruti false.

Advaiti reply - He is using a wrong example. Sruti is like a secret
treasure map. You want to find a hidden treasure. The map will guide
you to find it. But after you find the treasure will you keep on
looking at the map? it is not necessary. This is a practical example.
Another thing is if Sruti is also there with Brahman in Moksha there
will be two things. One will be Brahman and second thing will be
Sruti. Therefore it is not correct if Sruti is always existing like
Brahman.


On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Siva Senani Nori via Advaita-l
<advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> Sir
> Pranam.
> I never said "vedas are false in ultimately reality of waken up state". As I tried to explain in one of the early posts, this is a mischievous way of twisting the views of Advaita with a purpose to show that Advaita is incorrect. We Sraddhaalus should not construct such statements.
> Kindly consider the phrase "when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent Self)" and mull over it.
> The Braahmeesthiti is beyond words (यतो वाचो विवर्तन्ते अप्राप्य मनसा सह) and cannot be described. However all of reach a similar state on a daily basis, that is during deep sleep, where we do not dream. We forget everything in this state ("dead as a log", is how the English put it) - yet we resume our activities without skipping a beat. How is this possible? Because the one aspect of Self - called Praajña - is active during this state. In other words, this state is the equivalent of Moksha. The difference is that in Moksha, there is no punaraavritti, but we return from this deep sleep state all the time. However the situation while we are in deep sleep is comparable to Moksha.
> The Upanishad thus describes the state of Moksha, using the state of Deep Sleep. This is the sense of "when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent Self)". The funny thing about liberation is that it is not obtained in the sense getting what one did not have before (say, like acquiring a fancy car), it only needs to be discovered, like the chain in one's neck that one thought is lost. So, in reality, the AtmA is always Mukta - only we don't understand that. So if is perfectly reasonable that one of our three states is used to describe the state of Moksha.
> This is also the reason why I quoted BSB 4.1.3 where Bhagavatpada clearly takes the statement "यत्र वेदा अवेदाः" as applying to prabodhasthiti (enlightenment or Moksha). As further proof the sentence from Adhyaasabhaashya "अविद्यावद्विषयाणि प्रत्यक्षादीनि प्रमाणानि शास्त्राणि च" also was quoted. The idea is that once one realizes that everything is Brahman (सर्वं खल्विदं ब्रह्म), the one without a second (एकमेवाद्वितीयम्), there cannot be a second entity, even Veda. So what happens to Veda? It dissolves into Brahman. What about pramaaNas like pratyaksha (perception), inference (anumaana) etc.? These can operate only where there is perceiver or knower (pramaataa), and something being perceived or cognized (prameya). But no two such entities are there in ultimate reality. Only one entity, Brahman, is there. So when we talk of that state, it is untenable to talk of Pramaataa, Prameyaa etc. separately.
> Therefore, Veda is only an upaaya to know Brahman. Once Brahman is known Veda is non-different from Brahman and hence अवेदः. At no point does Saastrakrit ever say that Veda is false, only its abhaava - absence (that is not being present in a form and state different from Brahman) - is accepted, that too in prabodha.
> RegardsN. Siva Senani
>
>       From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>  To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; Sivasenani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
>  Sent: Monday, 3 August 2015 1:39 PM
>  Subject: Weather Vedas are considered as false in ultimate reality?
>
> Namaste Shiv Sir,
>                                             In your explanation you said,                                                       ///There the journey of the Self in the states of waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep are expounded. While dealing with the last, the Upanishad teaches that when a man is embraced by prAj~na (the intelligent Self), then he does not know anything without or within. This state is described in 4.3.22 - “Then a father is not a father, a mother not a mother, the worlds not worlds, the gods not gods, the Vedas not Vedas. Then a thief is not a thief, a murderer not a murderer, a Chandala not a Chandala, a Paulkasa not a Paulkasa, a Sramana not a Sramana, a Tapasa not a Tapasa. He is not followed by good, not followed by evil, for he has then overcome all the sorrows of the heart.” (Max Muller's translation) (PaulkaSa is the son of a Sudra father and a Kshatriya mother – i.e. a result of pratiloma marriage; Sramana is a mendicant).
>
>
> In dreamless sleep state vedas are aveda...I also accept,But my doubt is,weather mokha is waken up state or dream less sleep state?
> Now we are in dreaming state (samsara) where there is (little)  knowledge of vedas,When we are in deep sleep ,we are in dream less sleep  state ,where there is no knowledge of vedas....
> But moksha is considered as waken up state,the vedas says in deep sleep state there is no vedas (as said in vedaha avedhaha matra)...But in moksha (Waken up state)...knowledge of vedas should be there.....
> How do you say vedas are false in ultimately reality of waken up state.....
> In dream less sleep state knowledge of vedas may not be there ,but in moksha which is waken up state ,the knowledge of vedas should be there no?..
> As when we wake up from deep sleep we have knowledge of vedas back,which was not there in deep sleep state....
> regards,Harsha Bhat
>
>
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh