[Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
Siva Senani Nori
sivasenani at yahoo.com
Fri Jul 3 23:52:30 CDT 2015
Namaste
Let me explain the line in question to the best of my abilities. Before that, if a few preliminaries about usage of certain terms are clarified, then effective communication might happen.
A phenomenon is what is seen; it is opposed to a noumenon, which is the Reality. So the term "phenomenal world" means the world that which is being seen. Second, amongst the other uses of " if ", it (the word if) is used to express an hypothetical situation. Example: "If I were to be the Prime Minister of India, I would do ...". Finally, in a dialectical style of expounding philosophy, to understand a given sentence properly, its place in the dialogue needs to be ascertained. For instance, I inserted the present sentence in a made-up dialogue to give its sense :
1. P: You say that understanding the reality of Advaita is through the dissolution of the world2. Q: Yes3. P: Then, we have a problem. Tell me this: For something to dissolve, it must first exist, right? Like we have a lump of salt, which initially exists. Then, we throw it in water and it dissolves.4. Q: For things like salt and sugar, it is, indeed so.5. P: So the world must exist in reality for it to dissolve. What I don't understand is how you can deny something that you see, feel and live! If it disappears, who causes it to disappear?6. Q: It is not necessary for something to exist in reality, for it to be seen, felt, lived and then for it to disappear; nor is an extraneous agent required for the disappearance. Think of somebody who sees a rope in the night and mistakes it to be snake.7. P: Ok.8. Q: Once somebody brings a lamp, it becomes clear that snake did not exist.9. P: Yes.10. Q: So, for this person, initially the snake did exist; consequently he was afraid, there was perspiration on his face and his throat went dry. And, then with light he got proper cognition and the snake dissolved itself. So if the phenomenal reality of snake is taken as existing, then, of course, it would have disappeared. Similarly, "If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have disappeared."
In the above sentence, we are talking about the phenomenal world - the world as it is perceived, that is a world of duality. The word "if" denotes that in fact it does not exist, but for the purpose of vyavahaara, if we take it to be existing, then our contention is that it would disappear. How? The noumenal reality is Brahman alone. Avidyaa is the reason for the phenomenal world. So the agent which removes avidyaa - samyag jnaana - would remove the cause of this phenomenal world thereby causing the phenomenal world to disappear. That is how something which is unreal can exist and also disappear.
RegardsN. Siva Senani
From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; sivasenani at yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
Namaste... First of all,Thank you for your wonderful explanation...
My question is about this line.....of your explanation
"If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have disappeared."..
I din't get the meaning of this sentence....If the world is really existed ,then it will never disappear no???......
How Upanishad says if this world really existed THEN IT WILL DISAPPEAR ????
Real things will never disappear...it will always exists...So, how they say o??
Regards,Harsha Bhat
On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Subu S via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
///You are already that Brahman, therefore, there is no question of reaching Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman alone. W////
namO namaha
aruNachalA .. aruNachalA .. aruNachalA !
--
Regards
Subu
mail_to_subu at yahoo.com
From: RAMESH RAMANAN <rameshramanan at yahoo.co.uk>
To: Subu S <mail_to_subu at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015, 7:35
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
Dear Sri Subuji,
Pranams,
You are already that Brahman, therefore, there is no question of reaching Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman alone. We mistake the word to be real as it is and apart from Brahman and hence, our mistaken notions of being apart from Brahman and our need to reach and merge into Brahman. A devotee once asked Sri Ramana how can I reach, grow, expand and stabilize in Brahman (Something to this effect, not necessarily in the same words). Sri Ramana told him: "You are already that Brahman, there is no question of reaching, expanding or stabilizing. Brahman alone is real. You need to only get rid of your ignorance that you are different or separate from Brahman. Nothing else is required.
Pranams, Ramesh Ramanan.
On Friday, 3 July 2015, 0:02, Subu S via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
For a seeker like me who stumbled into _this_mini_universe_ i.e. this Advaita list, the knowledge of members is like an ocean
The scholarly posts are so deep, they are exhilarating and need deep understanding
///18. If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has been conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has been fulfilled. When, as a result of the teaching, Self-knowledge has been maintained, the manifold will cease to exist./////
May we all reach that stage where everything dissolves into that Brahman !
Namo Namaha
--
Regards
Subu
mail_to_subu at yahoo.com
From: Siva Senani Nori via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
To: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2015, 23:13
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
Namaste
GauDapaada wrote Kaarikas on the Maa. Up. divided into four prakaraNas. This is the tradition in Advaita. Others take some or all of these Kaarikas as Upanishads.
Given below is the translation of Swami Lokeswarananda of the Kaarikas you quoted from Aagama-prakaraNa, under Mantra 7:
17. If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have disappeared. But it does not exist. It is only an illusion. The fact of the matter is that Brahman alone is real.
18. If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has been conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has been fulfilled. When, as a result of the teaching, Self-knowledge has been maintained, the manifold will cease to exist.
These are accurate vaakyaarthas. The key to understanding lies in the unsaid questions of the opponent:
First he asks: "If you say that understanding the reality of Advaita is through the dissolution of the world, we have a problem. Either the world exists in reality or it does not. It cannot be the first because if it were so, then the Reality would be that the world exists. It cannot be the second because something needs to exist for it to dissolve."
The answer - at the level of vaacyaartha - is: "if the world were seen, that is if it really existed, it would have dissolved". By the force of "if" (यदि, yadi), the taatparya (purport) is: "but that is not true; in reality, the world does not exist". This begets a question: "then what is that we see around us?" The reply is: "Oh! that is an illusion. maayaamaatram idam dvaitam. In Reality, there is no second to Brahman. advaitam paramaarthataH "
This is further clarified in the poorvaardha of verse 18. "If for some reason [1], the vikalpaH - manifoldness - has been conceived, then that will dissolve"
I hope the meaning is clear.
Regards
N. Siva Senani
[1] Here "kenacit" has to be taken "kenacit kaaraNena", and not "kenacit purusheNa" or "kenacit aNgena" (like buddhi), because illlusion is due to avidyaa, not any particular person or an organ in him. Further the word "upadeSAt" in the uttaraardha of the Kaarikaa suggests that UpadeSa is the reason for splitting the One Brahman into teacher, student and subject.
>________________________________
> From: Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2015 7:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
>
>
>Please Can any learned scholars Tell the meaning of Above Verse...
>
>I here mainly required is Vakhyartha in advaitha point of view...
>
>Regards,
>Harsha Bhat
>
>On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sir,
>>
>> Can any one tell the meaning (Mainly Vakhyartha) of this
>> verse from Madukhya Upanishad......in advaitha point of view....
>>
>>
>> “prapanco yadi vidyeta nevarteta nashamshhayaH |
>> Maayaamaatram idam Dwaitam
>> Advaitam paramaarthataH || ”
>> “ vikalpo vinivarteta kalpito yadi kenacit |
>>
>>
>> Some this is the verse from Madukhya Upanishad...and some say it is from
>> Goudapada's Madukhya Karika.......Why this uncertainty...
>>
>> What is the exact difference between Madukhya karika and Mandukhya
>> upanishad.....
>>
>> Please answer...
>>
>> Harsha Bhat
>>
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