[Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse

[V Subrahmanian]

Very nice explanation, Sri Siva Senani ji. I shall render in Kannada just
the sense in which the 'if' is used, as explained by you, just to make it
even more closer to the member who I am sure knows the language:

ಒಂದು ವೇಳೆ ಪ್ರಪಞ್ಚ ಇರುವುದಾದರೆ, ಅದು (ಸರಿಯಾದ ಅರಿವಿನಿಂದ) ಹೋಗುವುದು.  ಆದರೆ,
ಪ್ರಪಞ್ಚ ಇಲ್ಲವೇ ಇಲ್ಲ ಮೂರೂ ಕಾಲಗಳಲ್ಲೂ. ಹಾಗಾದರೆ ’ಈ ಪ್ರಪಞ್ಚ ಆರೋಪಿತವಾದರು, ಅದು
ಜ್ಞಾನದಿಂದ ಹೋಗುವುದು’ ಎಂಬೀ ಮಾತು ಯಾಕೆ? ಈ ಪ್ರಶ್ನೆಗೆ ಉತ್ತರ : ಬರೀ ಉಪದೇಶಕ್ಕಾಗಿ ಆ
ಮಾತನ್ನು ಬಳಸಲಾಯಿತು ಅಷ್ಟೆ. ಆ ಉಪದೇಶದಿಂದ ತಿಳಿದು ಬರುವ ಸತ್ಯವೇನೆಂದರೆ: ಈ ಪ್ರಪಞ್ಚವು
ಮೂರೂ ಕಾಲಗಳಲ್ಲೂ ಇಲ್ಲ ಎಂಬುದೇ.  ಆ ಉಪದೇಶವಿಲ್ಲದಿದ್ದರೆ ಈ ಸತ್ಯ ತಿಳಿಯಲು ಸಾಧ್ಯವಿಲ್ಲ.
 ಆದ್ದರಿಂದ ಮಾತ್ರ ಆ ಮಾತು ಬೇಕಾಯಿತು.

ಈ ಕಾರಣದಿಂದಲೇ ಅದ್ವೈತದಲ್ಲಿ ಈ ಸತ್ಯವನ್ನು ಉಪದೇಶಿಸುವ ವೇದವೂ ಒಂದು ಹಂತದಲ್ಲಿ ಸತ್ಯವಲ್ಲ
ಎಂಬ ನಿಲುವು. ವೇದವಿಲ್ಲದಿದ್ದರೆ ಈ ಸತ್ಯ ತಿಳಿಯಲು ಸಾಧ್ಯವಿಲ್ಲ.

regards
subrahmanian.v

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 10:22 AM, Siva Senani Nori via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste
> Let me explain the line in question to the best of my abilities. Before
> that, if a few preliminaries about usage of certain terms are clarified,
> then effective communication might happen.
> A phenomenon is what is seen; it is opposed to a noumenon, which is the
> Reality. So the term "phenomenal world" means the world that which is being
> seen. Second, amongst the other uses of " if ", it (the word if)  is used
> to express an hypothetical situation. Example: "If I were to be the Prime
> Minister of India, I would do ...". Finally, in a dialectical style of
> expounding philosophy, to understand a given sentence properly, its place
> in the dialogue needs to be ascertained. For instance, I inserted the
> present sentence in a made-up dialogue to give its sense :
> 1. P: You say that understanding the reality of Advaita is through the
> dissolution of the world2. Q: Yes3. P: Then, we have a problem. Tell me
> this: For something to dissolve, it must first exist, right? Like we have a
> lump of salt, which initially exists. Then, we throw it in water and it
> dissolves.4. Q: For things like salt and sugar, it is, indeed so.5. P: So
> the world must exist in reality for it to dissolve. What I don't understand
> is how you can deny something that you see, feel and live! If it
> disappears, who causes it to disappear?6. Q: It is not necessary for
> something to exist in reality, for it to be seen, felt, lived and then for
> it to disappear; nor is an extraneous agent required for the disappearance.
> Think of somebody who sees a rope in the night and mistakes it to be
> snake.7. P: Ok.8. Q: Once somebody brings a lamp, it becomes clear that
> snake did not exist.9. P: Yes.10. Q: So, for this person, initially the
> snake did exist; consequently he was afraid, there was perspiration on his
> face and his throat went dry. And, then with light he got proper cognition
> and the snake dissolved itself. So if the phenomenal reality of snake is
> taken as existing, then, of course, it would have disappeared. Similarly,
> "If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have
> disappeared."
> In the above sentence, we are talking about the phenomenal world - the
> world as it is perceived, that is a world of duality. The word "if" denotes
> that in fact it does not exist, but for the purpose of vyavahaara, if we
> take it to be existing, then our contention is that it would disappear.
> How? The noumenal reality is Brahman alone. Avidyaa is the reason for the
> phenomenal world. So the agent which removes avidyaa - samyag jnaana -
> would remove the cause of this phenomenal world thereby causing the
> phenomenal world to disappear. That is how something which is unreal can
> exist and also disappear.
> RegardsN. Siva Senani
>
>
>       From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>  To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; sivasenani at yahoo.com
>  Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 6:39 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
>
> Namaste...                             First of all,Thank you for your
> wonderful explanation...
>                           My question is about this line.....of your
> explanation
> "If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have
> disappeared."..
> I din't get the meaning of this sentence....If the world is really existed
> ,then it will never disappear no???......
> How Upanishad says if this world really existed THEN IT WILL DISAPPEAR ????
> Real things will never disappear...it will always exists...So, how they
> say o??
> Regards,Harsha Bhat
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Subu S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> ///You are already that Brahman, therefore, there is no question of
> reaching Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman alone.  W////
>
> namO namaha
> aruNachalA .. aruNachalA .. aruNachalA !
>
>
>  --
>
> Regards
> Subu
>
> mail_to_subu at yahoo.com
>       From: RAMESH RAMANAN <rameshramanan at yahoo.co.uk>
>  To: Subu S <mail_to_subu at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for Advaita
> Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015, 7:35
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
>
> Dear Sri Subuji,
> Pranams,
>
> You are already that Brahman, therefore, there is no question of reaching
> Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman alone.  We mistake the word to be
> real as it is and apart from Brahman and hence, our mistaken notions of
> being apart from Brahman and our need to reach and merge into Brahman. A
> devotee once asked Sri Ramana how can I  reach, grow, expand and stabilize
> in Brahman (Something to this effect, not necessarily in the same words).
> Sri Ramana told him: "You are already that Brahman, there is no question of
> reaching, expanding or stabilizing. Brahman alone is real. You need to only
> get rid of your ignorance that you are different or separate from Brahman.
> Nothing else is required.
>
> Pranams, Ramesh Ramanan.
>
>
>      On Friday, 3 July 2015, 0:02, Subu S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>
>  For a seeker like me who stumbled into _this_mini_universe_ i.e. this
> Advaita list, the knowledge of members is like an ocean
>
> The scholarly posts are so deep, they are exhilarating and need deep
> understanding
>
> ///18. If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has been
> conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has been
> fulfilled. When, as a result of the teaching, Self-knowledge has been
> maintained, the manifold will cease to exist./////
>
> May we all reach that stage where everything dissolves into that Brahman !
>
> Namo Namaha
>  --
>
> Regards
> Subu
>
> mail_to_subu at yahoo.com
>       From: Siva Senani Nori via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  To: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>; A discussion group for Advaita
> Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2015, 23:13
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
>
> Namaste
>
> GauDapaada wrote Kaarikas on the Maa. Up. divided into four prakaraNas.
> This is the tradition in Advaita. Others take some or all of these Kaarikas
> as Upanishads.
>
> Given below is the translation of Swami Lokeswarananda of the Kaarikas you
> quoted from Aagama-prakaraNa, under Mantra 7:
>
> 17. If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have
> disappeared. But it does not exist. It is only an illusion. The fact of the
> matter is that Brahman alone is real.
>
> 18. If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has been
> conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has been
> fulfilled. When, as a result of the teaching, Self-knowledge has been
> maintained, the manifold will cease to exist.
>
> These are accurate vaakyaarthas. The key to understanding lies in the
> unsaid questions of the opponent:
>
> First he asks: "If you say that understanding the reality of Advaita is
> through the dissolution of the world, we have a problem. Either the world
> exists in reality or it does not. It cannot be the first because if it were
> so, then the Reality would be that the world exists. It cannot be the
> second because something needs to exist for it to dissolve."
>
> The answer - at the level of vaacyaartha - is: "if the world were seen,
> that is if it really existed, it would have dissolved". By the force of
> "if" (यदि, yadi), the taatparya (purport) is: "but that is not true; in
> reality, the world does not exist". This begets a question: "then what is
> that we see around us?" The reply is: "Oh! that is an illusion.
> maayaamaatram idam dvaitam. In Reality, there is no second to Brahman.
> advaitam paramaarthataH "
>
> This is further clarified in the poorvaardha of verse 18. "If for some
> reason [1], the vikalpaH - manifoldness - has been conceived, then that
> will dissolve"
>
> I hope the meaning is clear.
>
> Regards
>
> N. Siva Senani
>
> [1] Here "kenacit" has to be taken "kenacit kaaraNena", and not "kenacit
> purusheNa" or "kenacit aNgena" (like buddhi), because illlusion is due to
> avidyaa, not any particular person or an organ in him. Further the word
> "upadeSAt" in the uttaraardha of the Kaarikaa suggests that UpadeSa is the
> reason for splitting the One Brahman into teacher, student and subject.
>
> >________________________________
> > From: Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2015 7:05 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >
> >
> >Please Can any learned scholars Tell the meaning of Above Verse...
> >
> >I here mainly required is Vakhyartha in advaitha point of view...
> >
> >Regards,
> >Harsha Bhat
> >
> >On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Sir,
> >>
> >>              Can any one tell the meaning (Mainly Vakhyartha) of this
> >> verse from Madukhya Upanishad......in advaitha point of view....
> >>
> >>
> >> “prapanco yadi vidyeta nevarteta nashamshhayaH |
> >> Maayaamaatram idam Dwaitam
> >> Advaitam paramaarthataH || ”
> >> “ vikalpo vinivarteta kalpito yadi kenacit |
> >>
> >>
> >> Some this is the verse from Madukhya Upanishad...and some say it is from
> >> Goudapada's Madukhya Karika.......Why this uncertainty...
> >>
> >> What is the exact difference between Madukhya karika and Mandukhya
> >> upanishad.....
> >>
> >> Please answer...
> >>
> >> Harsha Bhat
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
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