[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Fwd: What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa vR^itti?

[H S Chandramouli]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa
vR^itti?
To: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>


Chandramouli ji - PraNAms - you may be right. I am just pointing out the
facts reationally as we know. shaastra-yuki and anubhava should be the
basis for analysis and anubhava evolves as we have universal observations
that need to be accounted. What I mentioned (not the attributive knowledge)
was somewhat discussed in Vichara Sagara of Nischaladaasa which we are
studying under Swami Paramarthanandaji - and the current topic is pramaaNa
analysis.

Hari Om!
Sadananda


--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 7/28/15, H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa
vR^itti?
 To: "kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
 Date: Tuesday, July 28, 2015, 2:12 AM

 Sri
 Sadananda Ji,
 Basically the
 discussion so far pertained to what is presented in Vedanta
 Paribhasha and Advaita Sidhi. Very different from what you
 have considered here. I may be wrong.
 Pranams and Regards
 Chandramouli
 On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at
 10:15 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>
 wrote:
 PraNAms



 Just for some thought,  but not to confuse.



 There are several aspects involved - pramaa vs bhramaa,
 smRiti and perception, and whether smRiti comes under
 separate pramaana. Anandaji also brought in - the internal
 perceptions - such as emotions- anger, happiness, or certain
 moods of the mind.



 Looking from a rational point - The perception for the first
 time (I think V. Advaita - classifies as indeterminate - not
 sure about tarkikaas) there is no role  of smRiti. and no
 jaati also here. When a child sees a cow for the first time,
 a white cow, and mother says - my dear this is a cow- now
 the cognition of cow and knowledge of the cognition as cow,
 as supported by aapta vaakya follows - otherwise just
 cognition of an object without a name.  Here pramaa and
 pramaata are involved at antaHkarana level. From my point,
 all cognitions are attributive in the sense that senses can
 only gather (reflective) attributes of the object perceived
 since original attributes are inseparable from their locus -
 and vishaya - the cow remains fortunately outside!



 The first cognition forms a memory sometimes being referred
 to as samskaara or vaasaana, hence part of kaaraNa shareera
 - this may be called as avidyaa vRitti.



 When the child sees another cow which is black, and the
 mother says this is also cow, - cognition, recognition as
 well as instincts of jaati are coming into play.



 Hence even in perception for the second time on - smRiti is
 coming into picture in recognition part. Hence perception
 involves both cognition and recognition to some extent or
 memory is playing a role in the knowledge. Hence avidhyaa
 vRitti or vaasana samskaara coming in the recognition
 process and not a cognitive level.Hence we have both
 antaHkarana vRitti and avidyaa vRitti due to vaasanaas or
 samskaara or memory.



 In the sRiti alone without cognition - as someone
 remembering a cow - then there is no cognition but only
 internal perception - if we call this as perception.



 Bhranti comes when the cognition is incomplete (since
 cognition is mostly attributive and attributives are
 incomplete due to absence of required secondary conditions
 such as light etc) and smRitti say snake while seeing a
 rope.



 smRiti is some have classified as antaHkarana vRitti while
 some others as avidya or kaarNa shareera vRitit.



 With jaati only the general attribute say cowness of the cow
 comes into picture - this happens only after second perhaps
 reinforced cognition-recognition cycle.



 Hari Om!

 Sadananda







 --------------------------------------------

 On Mon, 7/27/15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:



  Subject: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA
 vR^itti as against     antaHkaraNa     vR^itti?

  To: "Anand Hudli" <anandhudli at hotmail.com>,
 "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>

  Date: Monday, July 27, 2015, 11:32 PM



  Dear  Sri Anand Ji,



  Is not sopadika bhranti (

  सोपाधिक भ्रान्ति )
 considered

  avidya vritti ,

  even though it can be

  classified as objective knowledge ? Please clarify.



  Regards and Pranams



  On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:10

  PM, Anand Hudli via Advaita-l <

  advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>

  wrote:



  > An attempt to

  answer some questions.

  > The difference

  between objective knowledge and subjective knowledge
 lies

  in

  > the capability of the former type of

  knowledge to be *directly*

  >

  (aparokSheNa) conveyed or used in dealings (vyavahAra)
 with

  people other

  > than the person who has

  this knowledge. For example, if you see a pot, you

  > may point it out to others, "this is

  a pot", and they too will have the

  >

  same direct perception of the pot. On the other hand, if
 you

  feel happy,

  > you cannot *directly*

  convey this feeling to me. There is no way for me to

  > *directly* feel what you are feeling. You

  may express your feeling with

  > some act,

  words, etc. that allows me to understand your feeling,
 but

  this

  > only gives me an *indirect*

  knowledge. Coming to illusions such as a

  > silver-nacre, the advaitasiddhi holds that

  two cognitions are involved

  > here. In

  the (erroneous) cognition, "this is silver",
 the

  "this" (idam)

  > part is

  objective, but the "silver" (rajatam) part is

  subjective. Why? When

  > a person seeing

  illusory silver says, "this is silver",
 another

  person in

  > the vicinity will certainly

  see some object as the first person did, but

  > he/she may not see the object as silver.

  It is possible the second person

  > is not

  affected by the illusion, and may, in fact, see the
 nacre,

  not

  > silver. So the agreement between

  the first person and the second person is

  > that there is "something" out

  there. The knowledge of "something" is

  > objective and is common to both persons.

  However, the knowledge of "silver"

  > is restricted to the first person who is

  affected by the illusion. The

  > second

  person may have the knowledge of nacre, not silver. This
 is

  why it

  > is said avidyAvRtti can be

  prAtibhAsika or vyAvahArika.

  > If we look

  "under the hood" and try to understand what
 is

  anataHkaraNa

  > vRtti and what is

  avidyAvRtti, it is important to note that objective

  > knowledge, called "pramA", is

  gained through a pramANa (means of knowledge,

  > such as perception, inference, scriptures,

  etc), while subjective

  > knowledge,

  including the prAtibhAsika type, is not so obtained. In
 the

  case

  > of subjective knowledge, the

  witness-consciousness (sAkShicaitanya)

  >

  cognizes it without the need for antaHkaraNavRtti.  In

  contrast, objective

  > knowledge gained

  through a pramANa results in the modification of the

  > antaHkaraNa (mind), called

  antaHkaraNavRtti. MahamahopAdhyAya Abhyankar has

  > remarked in his commentary on the

  siddhAntabindu (dashashlokI):

  >

  apramAjnAnaM na manovRttirUpaM kiMtu avidyAvRttirUpaM

  sAkShyAshrayam.

  >

  >

  > Anand

  >

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