[Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Fwd: What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa vR^itti?

[H S Chandramouli]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: H S Chandramouli <hschandramouli at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as against antaHkaraNa
vR^itti?
To: kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com>


Sri Sadananda Ji,

Basically the discussion so far pertained to what is presented in Vedanta
Paribhasha and Advaita Sidhi. Very different from what you have considered
here. I may be wrong.

Pranams and Regards

Chandramouli

On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:15 AM, kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

> PraNAms
>
> Just for some thought,  but not to confuse.
>
> There are several aspects involved - pramaa vs bhramaa, smRiti and
> perception, and whether smRiti comes under separate pramaana. Anandaji also
> brought in - the internal perceptions - such as emotions- anger, happiness,
> or certain moods of the mind.
>
> Looking from a rational point - The perception for the first time (I think
> V. Advaita - classifies as indeterminate - not sure about tarkikaas) there
> is no role  of smRiti. and no jaati also here. When a child sees a cow for
> the first time, a white cow, and mother says - my dear this is a cow- now
> the cognition of cow and knowledge of the cognition as cow, as supported by
> aapta vaakya follows - otherwise just cognition of an object without a
> name.  Here pramaa and pramaata are involved at antaHkarana level. From my
> point, all cognitions are attributive in the sense that senses can only
> gather (reflective) attributes of the object perceived since original
> attributes are inseparable from their locus - and vishaya - the cow remains
> fortunately outside!
>
> The first cognition forms a memory sometimes being referred to as
> samskaara or vaasaana, hence part of kaaraNa shareera - this may be called
> as avidyaa vRitti.
>
> When the child sees another cow which is black, and the mother says this
> is also cow, - cognition, recognition as well as instincts of jaati are
> coming into play.
>
> Hence even in perception for the second time on - smRiti is coming into
> picture in recognition part. Hence perception involves both cognition and
> recognition to some extent or memory is playing a role in the knowledge.
> Hence avidhyaa vRitti or vaasana samskaara coming in the recognition
> process and not a cognitive level.Hence we have both antaHkarana vRitti and
> avidyaa vRitti due to vaasanaas or samskaara or memory.
>
> In the sRiti alone without cognition - as someone remembering a cow - then
> there is no cognition but only internal perception - if we call this as
> perception.
>
> Bhranti comes when the cognition is incomplete (since cognition is mostly
> attributive and attributives are incomplete due to absence of required
> secondary conditions such as light etc) and smRitti say snake while seeing
> a rope.
>
> smRiti is some have classified as antaHkarana vRitti while some others as
> avidya or kaarNa shareera vRitit.
>
> With jaati only the general attribute say cowness of the cow comes into
> picture - this happens only after second perhaps reinforced
> cognition-recognition cycle.
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 7/27/15, H S Chandramouli via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>  Subject: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [Advaita-l] What is avidyA vR^itti as
> against     antaHkaraNa     vR^itti?
>  To: "Anand Hudli" <anandhudli at hotmail.com>, "A discussion group for
> Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Date: Monday, July 27, 2015, 11:32 PM
>
>  Dear  Sri Anand Ji,
>
>  Is not sopadika bhranti (
>  सोपाधिक भ्रान्ति ) considered
>  avidya vritti ,
>  even though it can be
>  classified as objective knowledge ? Please clarify.
>
>  Regards and Pranams
>
>  On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 11:10
>  PM, Anand Hudli via Advaita-l <
>  advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
>  wrote:
>
>  > An attempt to
>  answer some questions.
>  > The difference
>  between objective knowledge and subjective knowledge lies
>  in
>  > the capability of the former type of
>  knowledge to be *directly*
>  >
>  (aparokSheNa) conveyed or used in dealings (vyavahAra) with
>  people other
>  > than the person who has
>  this knowledge. For example, if you see a pot, you
>  > may point it out to others, "this is
>  a pot", and they too will have the
>  >
>  same direct perception of the pot. On the other hand, if you
>  feel happy,
>  > you cannot *directly*
>  convey this feeling to me. There is no way for me to
>  > *directly* feel what you are feeling. You
>  may express your feeling with
>  > some act,
>  words, etc. that allows me to understand your feeling, but
>  this
>  > only gives me an *indirect*
>  knowledge. Coming to illusions such as a
>  > silver-nacre, the advaitasiddhi holds that
>  two cognitions are involved
>  > here. In
>  the (erroneous) cognition, "this is silver", the
>  "this" (idam)
>  > part is
>  objective, but the "silver" (rajatam) part is
>  subjective. Why? When
>  > a person seeing
>  illusory silver says, "this is silver", another
>  person in
>  > the vicinity will certainly
>  see some object as the first person did, but
>  > he/she may not see the object as silver.
>  It is possible the second person
>  > is not
>  affected by the illusion, and may, in fact, see the nacre,
>  not
>  > silver. So the agreement between
>  the first person and the second person is
>  > that there is "something" out
>  there. The knowledge of "something" is
>  > objective and is common to both persons.
>  However, the knowledge of "silver"
>  > is restricted to the first person who is
>  affected by the illusion. The
>  > second
>  person may have the knowledge of nacre, not silver. This is
>  why it
>  > is said avidyAvRtti can be
>  prAtibhAsika or vyAvahArika.
>  > If we look
>  "under the hood" and try to understand what is
>  anataHkaraNa
>  > vRtti and what is
>  avidyAvRtti, it is important to note that objective
>  > knowledge, called "pramA", is
>  gained through a pramANa (means of knowledge,
>  > such as perception, inference, scriptures,
>  etc), while subjective
>  > knowledge,
>  including the prAtibhAsika type, is not so obtained. In the
>  case
>  > of subjective knowledge, the
>  witness-consciousness (sAkShicaitanya)
>  >
>  cognizes it without the need for antaHkaraNavRtti.  In
>  contrast, objective
>  > knowledge gained
>  through a pramANa results in the modification of the
>  > antaHkaraNa (mind), called
>  antaHkaraNavRtti. MahamahopAdhyAya Abhyankar has
>  > remarked in his commentary on the
>  siddhAntabindu (dashashlokI):
>  >
>  apramAjnAnaM na manovRttirUpaM kiMtu avidyAvRttirUpaM
>  sAkShyAshrayam.
>  >
>  >
>  > Anand
>  >
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