[Advaita-l] Knowledge of Brahman
Harsha Bhat
harsha9519 at gmail.com
Tue Nov 10 07:50:02 CST 2015
Please tell the meaning of this matra in advaitha point of view..
dva suparna sayuja sakhaya
samanam vriksham parishasvajate
tayor anyah pippalam svadv atty
anashnann anyo ‘bhicakashiti
here what second bird represent in moksha?
One which watches is surely brahman.but what is second bird is?
Surely not bhudhi as it is not there in moksha...so which is that second
bird in this mantra...in advaitha point of view?
On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 11:41 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Subbu sir,
>> Completely understood,But
>> please explain dwe suparne mantra,in (Shankara) advaitha point of view.
>>
>> In dwe suparne matra says even in moksha there are two birds,So,according
>> to vedas only second bird (Bhudhi) exists even in moksha...
>>
>> But according to advaitha in paramartha level there is only one reality
>> i:e brahman and there is no bhudhi...
>>
>
> The above is not the correct understanding of the mantra(s) there:
>
> The last mantra in that group says: Mundaka 3.1.3:
>
> यदा पश्यः पश्यते रुक्मवर्णं कर्तारमीशं पुरुषं ब्रह्मयोनिम् ।
> तदा विद्वान्पुण्यपापे विधूय निरञ्जनः *परमं साम्यमुपैति* ॥ ३ ॥
> भाष्यम्
> अन्योऽपि मन्त्र इममेवार्थमाह सविस्तरम् — यदा यस्मिन्काले पश्यः पश्यतीति
> विद्वान् साधक इत्यर्थः । पश्यते पश्यति पूर्ववत्, रुक्मवर्णं
> स्वयंज्योतिःस्वभावं रुक्मस्येव वा ज्योतिरस्याविनाशि ; कर्तारं सर्वस्य जगतः
> ईशं पुरुषं ब्रह्मयोनिं ब्रह्म च तद्योनिश्चासौ ब्रह्मयोनिस्तं ब्रह्मयोनिं
> ब्रह्मणो वा अपरस्य योनिं स यदा चैवं पश्यति, तदा स विद्वान्पश्यः पुण्यपापे
> बन्धनभूते कर्मणी समूले विधूय निरस्य दग्ध्वा निरञ्जनः निर्लेपो विगतक्लेशः*
> परमं प्रकृष्टं निरतिशयं साम्यं समतामद्वयलक्षणाम् ; द्वैतविषयाणि साम्यान्यतः
> अर्वाञ्च्येव, अतोऽद्वयलक्षणमेतत् परमं साम्यमुपैति प्रतिपद्यते ॥*
>
> You can see the Sw. Gambhirananda translation for this. There is a Br.up.
> mantra: na pretya sañjā asti. There it is clearly said, after death, there
> will be no trace of the Jnāni whatsoever.
>
> Br.up. 2.4.13 and bhashya: न प्रेत्य सञ्ज्ञास्तीति :
>
> मया तु इदमुक्तम् — यस्तु अविद्याप्रत्युपस्थापितः कार्यकरणसम्बन्धी आत्मनः
> खिल्यभावः, तस्मिन्विद्यया नाशिते, तन्निमित्ता या विशेषसञ्ज्ञा
> शरीरादिसम्बन्धिनी अन्यत्वदर्शनलक्षणा, सा कार्यकरणसङ्घातोपाधौ प्रविलापिते
> नश्यति, हेत्वभावात्, उदकाद्याधारनाशादिव चन्द्रादिप्रतिबिम्बः तन्निमित्तश्च
> प्रकाशादिः ; न पुनः परमार्थचन्द्रादित्यस्वरूपवत् असंसारिब्रह्मस्वरूपस्य
> विज्ञानघनस्य नाशः ; तत् विज्ञानघन इत्युक्तम् ; स आत्मा सर्वस्य जगतः ;
> परमार्थतो भूतनाशात् न विनाशी ; विनाशी तु अविद्याकृतः खिल्यभावः, ‘वाचारम्भणं
> विकारो नामधेयम्’ (छा. उ. ६-१-४)
> <http://advaitasharada.sringeri.net/php/format.php?bhashya=Chandogya&page=06&hval=%E2%80%98%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%82%20%E0%A4%B5%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8B%20%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%A7%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AE%E0%A5%8D%E2%80%99%20(%E0%A4%9B%E0%A4%BE.%20%E0%A4%89.%20%E0%A5%AC-%E0%A5%A7-%E0%A5%AA)#Ch_C06_S01_V04> ,
> इति श्रुत्यन्तरात् ।
>
> There Yajnavalkya clarifies that after death of the Jnani, the body, which
> is a product of avidyā, having come to an end, there will be nothing
> whatsoever left of the Jnani. Hence, the mind/buddhi upādhi will also not
> remain. You can read Sw.Madhavananda's translation for the above.
>
> regards
> vs
>
>>
>> So,how do you explain dwe suparne matra in advaitha point of view?
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 11:05 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:18 PM, Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <
>>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But In advaitha brahman is without swarupa jgnana........
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brahman with swarupa jgnana can be called as swayam prakasha, as you
>>>> said
>>>> ,when we are woken up we know that we are present ,even without light...
>>>>
>>>> But in advaitha brahman is without swarupa jgnana ,hence in advaitha
>>>> brahman is not swayam praksha...
>>>>
>>>> As in deep sleep ,we are not aware that we are present...
>>>>
>>>
>>> We are not aware 'during' sleep because the vijñānamaya kosha
>>> (buddhi/manas) is resolved. Yet, when we wake up we say: I slept happily, I
>>> did not know anything.'. This is possible only when we have experienced
>>> the happiness. Vidyaranya has explained thus: Even if vijnanamaya kosha is
>>> resolved in sleep, the ānandamaya kosha is awake then. It grasps the
>>> experience of ānanda and also the experience of ignorance then. When we
>>> wake up, we express that saushuptika experience through the vijnana maya
>>> kosha. We can understand this by an analogy:
>>>
>>> A man receives payment from his office for having worked as a manager.
>>> He spends that money for his family as a family man. So, same entity, with
>>> two different upadhis performs the functions that are two different ones.
>>> Similarly, the same jiva, as ananda maya experiences in sushupti and as
>>> vijnana maya expresses it on waking. So, Atman's sva prakāshatva is never
>>> lost; it continues forever; only the experiencing medium is different.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But vedas call brahman swayam prakasha...that means brahman has swarupa
>>>> jgnana...that means brahman is not nirguna....as advaithis claim...
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is not so. 'Svyam prakāsha' is only the other name for 'jnanam,
>>> vijnanam brahma' of the Taittiriya/Br.up. This is not any guna of Brahman
>>> but the very svarupa of it. A guna, attribute, comes through māyā to
>>> Brahman. Every one of the 'ananta kalyāṇa guṇa gaṇa' is possible ONLY
>>> through prakriti sambandha to Brahman and not by Itself.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Kunthi mathi sir,
>>>> >
>>>> > You also said,
>>>> > Oh! That I can see! I can see that I cannot see! – In essence I can
>>>> see
>>>> > that is dark without any light – in fact I do not need light to see
>>>> > darkness or even ignorance since I know that I do not know if there
>>>> is a
>>>> > chair or not.
>>>> >
>>>> > Here you mean to say that there is no need of knowledge to see
>>>> > ignorance,or light to see darkness...but,you should have swarupa
>>>> jgnana to
>>>> > see darkness also...or in other words...in deep sleep you cannot see
>>>> > darkness...But in advaitha brahman is without swarupa jgnana,how the
>>>> > brahman without swarupa jgnna can see darkness or ignorance?????
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > And Also...
>>>> >
>>>> > Q. Sir, Are you there in the room since you said it is too dark that
>>>> you
>>>> > cannot see anything?
>>>> > A. Of course I know I am there. I do not need light to see myself as
>>>> I am
>>>> > self-revealing to myself! I am aprameyam not an object (with gunas)
>>>> for me
>>>> > to see or to know! I am self-existing and self-conscious entity.
>>>> >
>>>> > But,I am not self-revealing to myself when I am in deep sleep no
>>>> sir?...
>>>> > When I am in deep sleep,I consciousness is not revealing to myself no
>>>> > sir?...then how do you say that I consciousness is self -revealing or
>>>> > swayam prakasha TO MYSELF?
>>>> >
>>>> > HERE WHAT I ADD IS, I SHOULD HAVE LIGHT OF SWARUPA JGNANA TO REVEAL
>>>> > MYSELF,I AM NOT REVEALING TO MY SELF WITHOUT SWARUPA GNANA.FOR
>>>> EXAMPLE IN
>>>> > DEEP SLEEP WITHOUT SWARUPA GNANA I AM NOT SELF REVEALING TO MY SELF...
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 10:32 PM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Kunthi -mathi sir,you said
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Q. Sir, Are you there in the room since you said it is too dark that
>>>> you
>>>> >> cannot see anything?
>>>> >> A. Of course I know I am there. I do not need light to see myself as
>>>> I am
>>>> >> self-revealing to myself! I am aprameyam not an object (with gunas)
>>>> for me
>>>> >> to see or to know! I am self-existing and self-conscious entity.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> But,I am not self-revealing to myself when I am in deep sleep no
>>>> sir?...
>>>> >> When I am in deep sleep,I consciousness is not revealing to myself no
>>>> >> sir?...then how do you say that I consciousness is self -revealing or
>>>> >> swayam prakasha?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 6:27 PM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> >>> From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> Date: Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 3:02 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Fwd: [Advaita-l] Knowledge of Brahman
>>>> >>> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
>>>> >>> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> >>> From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> Date: Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 8:40 PM
>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Knowledge of Brahman
>>>> >>> To: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at braincells.com>, A discussion group
>>>> for
>>>> >>> Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Jaldar sir,
>>>> >>> One interesting point here,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> According to advaitha in moksha or in turya
>>>> >>> state,there will not be any swarupa jgnana,or knowledge of self to
>>>> athman.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So,my question is ,if a person has swarupa jgnana ,then he may get
>>>> >>> affected by swarupa-agjnana or (maya).
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> But one who don't have swarupa jgnana ,(like stone)...will never get
>>>> >>> swarupa agnana...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Or in other words maya or avaidhya can never affect nirguna...and
>>>> make
>>>> >>> him feel that he is finite...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> So,how you will prove the creation of this world here ...according
>>>> to
>>>> >>> advaitha?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> regards,
>>>> >>> Harsha Bhat
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Jaldhar H. Vyas <
>>>> jaldhar at braincells.com
>>>> >>> > wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2015, Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> We get the moksha through the knowledge of brahman according to
>>>> >>>>> vedas,but
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> 1)Infinite cannot be known by finite.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The finite does not actually exist. It only appears to do so
>>>> because
>>>> >>>> of maya.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> 2)Nirguna can never be known ,because suguna can be known through
>>>> >>>>> suguna's
>>>> >>>>> guna,but nirguna can never be known,because he is attribute less.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> As a consequence of 1, when the delusionary gunas are negated then
>>>> what
>>>> >>>> is left is the nirguna brahman.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> 3)Nirguna cannot have knowledge.As knowledge is also a guna.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> On Sat, 7 Nov 2015, Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sorry small change to my third point said above,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> 3)Nirguna cannot have knowledge,as HAVING knowledge is also a
>>>> guna...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> No only the conventional (vyavaharic) knowledge which is based on
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> premise of duality is a guna. From the paramarthic standpoint you
>>>> do not
>>>> >>>> need to "know" Brahman because you are and always have been
>>>> Brahman. Only
>>>> >>>> maya deluded you into forgetting that.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at braincells.com>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
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>>>
>>
>
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