[Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata

[Kalyan]

Dear Sri Sriram

I have not made any personal attacks against Sri Subrahmanian - the person who gave the arguments, so your contention is wrong. I have only said that Appayya Dikshita comes across as a poor reader of the epic. Here is the reason why - Rama does not become a jIva just because he goes to svarga and is under Indra's lordship because Ishwara can be present in multiple places at the same time. Krishna does not become a jIva because he says he fell under delusion because the Mahabharata itself says that Krishna beguiles everyone and does actions as though he is powerless. 

Ishannapi mahAyogI sarvasya jagato hariH |
karmANyArabhate kartuM kInAsha iva durbalaH || 14||

tena va~nchayate lokAnmAyAyogena keshavaH |
ye tameva prapadyante na te muhyanti mAnavAH || 15|| (Mbh.5.66)

So the so-called stray verses that Appayya Dikshita was using were not really showing jIvatva of either Rama or Krishna. 

Regards
Kalyan


--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 5/20/17, Sriram Sankaranarayanan <ssriram1992 at icloud.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
 To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>, "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
 Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 10:40 PM
 
 Dear Kalyan
 ji,
 While kindly
 advising you to refrain from ad hominem (attacking the
 arguing person rather than the argument) I would like to
 answer  you. 
 Please
 read the link sent by Sri Subramaniam ji. Appayya Dikshita
 is indeed saying that "if you can pick individual
 phrases from Ramayana Mahabharata etc and claim Shiva is
 Jeeva, it is not difficult to pick isolated phrases, or even
 chapters to show Rama and Krishna are jeeva. He just showed
 that with clever choice of selecting stanzas, even the
 counter argument can be implied. All that Sri  Appayya
 Dikshita claims finally is Hari-Hara abheda. 
 It is the same paramatma who is
 brahma, shiva, Hari or Indra. "Sa brahma sa
 shiva sa hari saendra "
 
 On Sat, May 20, 2017
 at 3:33 PM Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 I have
 touched upon only Rama. The idea that the Mahabharata
 considers Krishna as not Ishwara, is not even worth
 refuting. It is hilarious. At so many places in the
 Mahabharata is Krishna described as Ishwara, that it is
 pointless to list them all. Appayya Dikshita ultimately
 comes out as a very poor reader of the great epic.
 
 
 
 Regards
 
 Kalyan
 
 
 
 
 
 --------------------------------------------
 
 On Sat, 5/20/17, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 
 
 
  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s
 - Mahabharata
 
  To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
 <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 
  Cc: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
 
  Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 6:40 PM
 
 
 
  Appayya Dikshitha probably has not studied
 
  the entire Mahabharata. In Shanti parvan, when Vishnu
 shows
 
  his Vishwaroopa to Narada, Vishnu says that he will be
 born
 
  as Dasaratha's son Rama.
 
 
 
  sandhau tu samanuprApte tretAyAM
 
  dvAparasya cha |
 
  rAmo dAsharathirbhUtvA bhaviShyAmi
 
  jagatpatiH || Mbh 12.326.78
 
 
 
  Thus, the Mahabharata itself
 
  establishes Rama as Ishwara. Moreover Valmiki Ramayana
 also
 
  considers Rama as Ishwara. One must not study a text in
 bits
 
  and pieces.
 
 
 
  Regards
 
  Kalyan
 
 
 
  ------------------------------------------
 
  On Sat, 5/20/17, V Subrahmanian via
 
  Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 
  wrote:
 
 
 
   Subject: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and
 
  Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
 
   To: "A discussion group for Advaita
 
  Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 
   Cc: "V Subrahmanian" <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
 
   Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 3:26 AM
 
 
 
   A post on the above topic is available
 
  here
 
   for reading:
 
 
 
   https://adbhutam.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/rama-and-krishna-are-jiva-s-mahabharata/
 
 
 
 
 
   regards
 
   subrahmanian.v
 
 
 
 
 
   In the short work 'Bhārata sāraga
 
   sangraha stotram', Sri Appayya
 
  Dikshita
 
   concludes by pointing out that Rama
 
  and
 
   Krishna were jiva-s, endowed with
 
   karma, delusion, etc. on the
 
  authority
 
   of the Mahabharata:
 
 
 
   गोप्तारं ततो
 
   गच्छेत्
 
 
 
  सरव्यास्तीर्थमुत्तमम्
 
   ।
 
   तत्र रामो गतः
 
   स्वर्गं
 
 
 
  सभृत्यबलवाहनः ॥
 
   देहं
 
   त्यक्त्वा
 
  दिवं यातः
 
 
 
  स्थास्यतीन्द्रस्य
 
   वैभवात् ।’
 
 
 
   [Rama went to svarga along with his
 
   retinue, after giving up the body,
 
  and
 
   remains there with Indra's lordship.]
 
 
 
   इति
 
 
 
  गोप्रतारतीर्थमहिम्ना
 
   श्रीरामस्य
 
 
 
  स्वर्गप्रतिष्ठावचनात्;
 
   सभापर्वणि
 
   यमसभावर्णने -
 
 
 
   Having thus proclaimed the greatness
 
  of
 
   Go-pratāra, Sri Rama's settlement
 
   in Svarga, the sabhā parvan of the
 
   Mahabharata while describing the
 
   Assembly Hall of Yama further says:
 
 
 
   तस्यां
 
   राजर्षयः
 
  पुण्यास्तथा
 
 
 
  देवर्षयोऽमराः ।
 
   यमं वैवस्वतं
 
   तात
 
  प्रहृष्टाः
 
   पर्युपासते ॥
 
   ययातिर्नहुषः
 
 
 
  पूरुर्मान्धाता
 सोमको
 
   नृगः ।
 
 
 
    
 
   इत्यारभ्य 
 
 
 
  स्वर्गप्राप्त्यनन्तरं
 
 
 
  यमसभायामास्थाय
 
   तमुपासीनानां
 
   राजर्षीणां
 
   परिगणनेन,
 
   ’रामो
 
  दाशरथिश्चैव
 
   लक्षमणश्च
 
  प्रतर्दनः’
 
   इति परिगणनेन च
 
  सोऽपि
 
 
 
  कर्माधीनलोकप्राप्तिको
 
   जीवविशेषः
 
  स्यात् ।
 
 
 
   In the Assembly Hall of Yama are
 
   present: Rajarshi-s with puṇya,
 
   devarshi-s, deva-s, who happily
 
   meditate upon Yama. Also are Yayati,
 
   Nahusha, Puru, Māndhāta, Somaka,
 
   Nṛga. Having enumerated those
 
  present in
 
   the Assembly and meditating Yama, the
 
   Mahabharata includes: Rāma the son
 
  of
 
   Dasharatha, Lakshmana and Pratardana.
 
   By so counting Rama along with all
 
   other entities, it can be concluded
 
   that Rama is a jiva who has attained
 
  a
 
   loka that is subject to and
 
  attainable
 
   by karma.
 
 
 
   Read the full post in the URL
 
  provided
 
   above.
 
 
 
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 -- 
 Sriram Sankaranarayanan
 PhD Candidate,
 Center for
 Systems Science and Engineering|Latrobe 302
 Johns Hopkins University.
 Ph:
 +1 (443) 713 6818
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