[Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
Sriram Sankaranarayanan
ssriram1992 at icloud.com
Sun May 21 00:48:39 EDT 2017
(replying to the group)
On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Kalyan via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> Dear Sri Sriram
>
> I have not made any personal attacks against Sri Subrahmanian - the person
> who gave the arguments, so your contention is wrong.
Holding that your questions are to Advaitins, all the sentences that
attacks Advaitins can be ad hominem. The arguments are originally from
Appayya Dikshitar, while Sri Subrahmanian brought it forth for us. The
sentences including
1. "
Looks like advaitins are a divided lot since Shankara and Madhusudhana
Saraswati consider Krishna as Ishwara and the latter considers Rama also as
Ishwara.
" rather than, "How can we reconcile the opinions of *Sri* Shankar
*acharya* and *Sri* Madhusudhana Saraswathi who consider ..."
2.
Appayya Dikshitha probably has not studied the entire Mahabharata
3
.
Appayya Dikshita ultimately comes out as a very poor reader of the great
epic.
were ad hominem.
> I have only said that Appayya Dikshita comes across as a poor reader of
> the epic. Here is the reason why - Rama does not become a jIva just because
> he goes to svarga and is under Indra's lordship because Ishwara can be
> present in multiple places at the same time. Krishna does not become a jIva
> because he says he fell under delusion because the Mahabharata itself says
> that Krishna beguiles everyone and does actions as though he is powerless.
>
> Ishannapi mahAyogI sarvasya jagato hariH |
> karmANyArabhate kartuM kInAsha iva durbalaH || 14||
>
> tena va~nchayate lokAnmAyAyogena keshavaH |
> ye tameva prapadyante na te muhyanti mAnavAH || 15|| (Mbh.5.66)
>
> So the so-called stray verses that Appayya Dikshita was using were not
> really showing jIvatva of either Rama or Krishna.
>
> Exactly, all advaitis agree to this claim of yours! These verses DO NOT
establish the jivatva of Rama or Krishna. But on the other hand, if
somebody quotes similar verses on Shiva and claim Shiva is jiva, it cannot
be accepted. All that Appayya dikshitar
has shown is that, using the above said logic, even Rama or Krishna can be
proved to be Jiva.
> Regards
> Kalyan
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 5/20/17, Sriram Sankaranarayanan <ssriram1992 at icloud.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
> vedanta.org>, "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
> Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 10:40 PM
>
> Dear Kalyan
> ji,
> While kindly
> advising you to refrain from ad hominem (attacking the
> arguing person rather than the argument) I would like to
> answer you.
> Please
> read the link sent by Sri Subramaniam ji. Appayya Dikshita
> is indeed saying that "if you can pick individual
> phrases from Ramayana Mahabharata etc and claim Shiva is
> Jeeva, it is not difficult to pick isolated phrases, or even
> chapters to show Rama and Krishna are jeeva. He just showed
> that with clever choice of selecting stanzas, even the
> counter argument can be implied. All that Sri Appayya
> Dikshita claims finally is Hari-Hara abheda.
> It is the same paramatma who is
> brahma, shiva, Hari or Indra. "Sa brahma sa
> shiva sa hari saendra "
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2017
> at 3:33 PM Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> wrote:
> I have
> touched upon only Rama. The idea that the Mahabharata
> considers Krishna as not Ishwara, is not even worth
> refuting. It is hilarious. At so many places in the
> Mahabharata is Krishna described as Ishwara, that it is
> pointless to list them all. Appayya Dikshita ultimately
> comes out as a very poor reader of the great epic.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Kalyan
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Sat, 5/20/17, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-
> vedanta.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and Krishna are Jiva-s
> - Mahabharata
>
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta"
> <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
> Cc: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
>
> Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 6:40 PM
>
>
>
> Appayya Dikshitha probably has not studied
>
> the entire Mahabharata. In Shanti parvan, when Vishnu
> shows
>
> his Vishwaroopa to Narada, Vishnu says that he will be
> born
>
> as Dasaratha's son Rama.
>
>
>
> sandhau tu samanuprApte tretAyAM
>
> dvAparasya cha |
>
> rAmo dAsharathirbhUtvA bhaviShyAmi
>
> jagatpatiH || Mbh 12.326.78
>
>
>
> Thus, the Mahabharata itself
>
> establishes Rama as Ishwara. Moreover Valmiki Ramayana
> also
>
> considers Rama as Ishwara. One must not study a text in
> bits
>
> and pieces.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Kalyan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------
>
> On Sat, 5/20/17, V Subrahmanian via
>
> Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] Fwd: Rama and
>
> Krishna are Jiva-s - Mahabharata
>
> To: "A discussion group for Advaita
>
> Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
> Cc: "V Subrahmanian" <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
>
> Date: Saturday, May 20, 2017, 3:26 AM
>
>
>
> A post on the above topic is available
>
> here
>
> for reading:
>
>
>
> https://adbhutam.wordpress.com/2017/05/20/rama-and-krishna-are-jiva-s-
> mahabharata/
>
>
>
>
>
> regards
>
> subrahmanian.v
>
>
>
>
>
> In the short work 'Bhārata sāraga
>
> sangraha stotram', Sri Appayya
>
> Dikshita
>
> concludes by pointing out that Rama
>
> and
>
> Krishna were jiva-s, endowed with
>
> karma, delusion, etc. on the
>
> authority
>
> of the Mahabharata:
>
>
>
> गोप्तारं ततो
>
> गच्छेत्
>
>
>
> सरव्यास्तीर्थमुत्तमम्
>
> ।
>
> तत्र रामो गतः
>
> स्वर्गं
>
>
>
> सभृत्यबलवाहनः ॥
>
> देहं
>
> त्यक्त्वा
>
> दिवं यातः
>
>
>
> स्थास्यतीन्द्रस्य
>
> वैभवात् ।’
>
>
>
> [Rama went to svarga along with his
>
> retinue, after giving up the body,
>
> and
>
> remains there with Indra's lordship.]
>
>
>
> इति
>
>
>
> गोप्रतारतीर्थमहिम्ना
>
> श्रीरामस्य
>
>
>
> स्वर्गप्रतिष्ठावचनात्;
>
> सभापर्वणि
>
> यमसभावर्णने -
>
>
>
> Having thus proclaimed the greatness
>
> of
>
> Go-pratāra, Sri Rama's settlement
>
> in Svarga, the sabhā parvan of the
>
> Mahabharata while describing the
>
> Assembly Hall of Yama further says:
>
>
>
> तस्यां
>
> राजर्षयः
>
> पुण्यास्तथा
>
>
>
> देवर्षयोऽमराः ।
>
> यमं वैवस्वतं
>
> तात
>
> प्रहृष्टाः
>
> पर्युपासते ॥
>
> ययातिर्नहुषः
>
>
>
> पूरुर्मान्धाता
> सोमको
>
> नृगः ।
>
>
>
>
>
> इत्यारभ्य
>
>
>
> स्वर्गप्राप्त्यनन्तरं
>
>
>
> यमसभायामास्थाय
>
> तमुपासीनानां
>
> राजर्षीणां
>
> परिगणनेन,
>
> ’रामो
>
> दाशरथिश्चैव
>
> लक्षमणश्च
>
> प्रतर्दनः’
>
> इति परिगणनेन च
>
> सोऽपि
>
>
>
> कर्माधीनलोकप्राप्तिको
>
> जीवविशेषः
>
> स्यात् ।
>
>
>
> In the Assembly Hall of Yama are
>
> present: Rajarshi-s with puṇya,
>
> devarshi-s, deva-s, who happily
>
> meditate upon Yama. Also are Yayati,
>
> Nahusha, Puru, Māndhāta, Somaka,
>
> Nṛga. Having enumerated those
>
> present in
>
> the Assembly and meditating Yama, the
>
> Mahabharata includes: Rāma the son
>
> of
>
> Dasharatha, Lakshmana and Pratardana.
>
> By so counting Rama along with all
>
> other entities, it can be concluded
>
> that Rama is a jiva who has attained
>
> a
>
> loka that is subject to and
>
> attainable
>
> by karma.
>
>
>
> Read the full post in the URL
>
> provided
>
> above.
>
>
>
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>
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> --
> Sriram Sankaranarayanan
> PhD Candidate,
> Center for
> Systems Science and Engineering|Latrobe 302
> Johns Hopkins University.
> Ph:
> +1 (443) 713 6818
> Personal Group LinkedIn
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