[Advaita-l] Trimurtis are created of Pancha bhūta-s - Shankara

[V Subrahmanian]

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Namaste Subbu ji and Chandramouliji
> Thank you for an interesting discussion. I too had the kathopaniShad verse
> in mind quoted by Subbu ji.
>
> Also just wondering if Subbuji is referring to kArya brahman who is
> apancIkRta pancamahabhUta i.e., tanmAtra-born, while Chandramouliji is
> talking of kAraNa brahman who is not constituted of even such  sUkShma
> pancabhUtas.
>

Dear Raghav ji,

I don't think Chandramouli ji is talking about kāraṇa brahman. He knows
Hiranyagarbha is a created being; directly from Avyākṛta is his view at
present.  I just want to add that the Vedanta Paribhasha portion he cited
latest mentioning 'Hiranyagarbha sthūlaśarīra, as I guessed, it is stated
in the subcommentary that this refers to Virāt. In Advaita this Virāṭ is
admitted to be the samaśṭi sthūla śarīra abhimāni and with his creation
starts the fourteen worlds' creation. Hiraṇyagarbha is the samaṣṭi sukṣma
śarīra abhimāni. While he is termed 'prathamaja', the Virāṭ is termed
'prathama śarīri', as I understand. Sometimes their distinct identity is
also not maintained.

I suppose no one would contend with the above para?
>
> Now the tricky part -
> Can we say that kAraNa brahman ( since upAdhi is present) can be also be
> referred to as saguNa brahman or Ishvara? I suppose yes we can.
>
> As in shvetAsvataropaniShad -
> hiraNyagarbham pashyata jAyamAnam
> sa no devaH shubhayA smrityA samyunaktu...
> ( My understanding - kAraNa brahman 'saw' or 'oversaw'
> hiraNyagarbha-sRShTi and presumably revealed the veda mantras to this
> prathamaja jIva who is also called saguNa brahman /Ishvara in the context
> of subsequent sRShti krama of 14 lokas etc.
>
>  And yet this kAraNa brahman who existed even before hiraNyagarbha, is
> still mayopAdhika saguNam brAhma or Ishvara and we can still direct prayer
> to this kAraNa brahman saying 'sa no devaH shubhayA smrityA samyunaktu'.
> And kAraNopAdika brahman / Ishvara is not constituted by the apancIkRta
> mahAbhUtas either. )
>

This position is not flawed.

regards
subbu

>
> Om
>
> Raghav
>
>
>
> On 23-Nov-2017 8:35 PM, "V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l" <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > Dear Sri Chandramouli ji,
> >
> > Do the portions cited by you contradict the ones cited by me?  When it is
> > said ' atra  cha  parameshvarasya pa~nchatanmAtrAdyutpattau,
> > saptadashAvayavopeta-li~NgasharIrotpattau,
> hiraNyagarbhasthUlasharIrotpat
> > tau
> > cha,  sAkShAtkartRRitvam |' it should not be forgotten that God, in the
> > context of creation, is already defined by this very text, that I have
> > cited: Brahman, with māyā association resolves to create.  This element
> of
> > Māyā is the pariṇāmi upādāna kāraṇam for the pancha sukṣma bhūtas and
> from
> > them the linga sharira, of both Hiranyagarbha and other jivas. So, when
> God
> > is the sākśāt kāraṇam, it is only through/with the association of māyā.
> > Thus, Hiranyagarbha is prakrti kāryam. The text wants to distinguish the
> > stage up to which Brahman is the direct cause and the stage from which
> > Hiranyagarbha is the cause.
> >
> > regards
> > subbu
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 7:50 PM, H S Chandramouli <
> > hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Reg  << In the 7th Pariccheda is the jagatsṛṣṭi krama is detailed.
> There
> > > it is stated ( I am giving only a summary and not the exact lines,
> which
> > > may be read in any standard publication.) Brahman, with māyā
> association
> > > resolves to create. Thereupon emerge the five elements - apanchīkṛta
> > pancha
> > > tanmātra-named elements. Then there is a discussion about the guṇa-s of
> > the
> > > elements. And the creation of the sense and  motor organs and the
> > > antahkaranam. Then is the panchikaraṇa process detailed, incidentally.
> > Then
> > > it says:
> > >
> > > तैश्च अपञ्चीकृतभूतैः लिङ्गशरीरम् परलोकयात्रानिर्वाहकं ....जायते । From
> > > the apanchikrta pancha bhutas emerges the Linga sharīra, which is of
> two
> > > types: Param and aparam. Param is Hiranyagarbhalingashariram. Aparam is
> > our
> > > lingashariram. Hiranyagarbhalingasharira is called Mahat tattvam. After
> > > this the 14 lokas are stated to be born of the panchikrta bhutas.  >>,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is succeeded by the following in Vedanta Paribhasha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > << अत्र  च  परमेश्वरस्य पञ्चतन्मात्राद्युत्पत्तौ,  सप्तदशावयवोपेत-
> > > लिङ्गशरीरोत्पत्तौ,  हिरण्यगर्भस्थूलशरीरोत्पत्तौ  च,
> साक्षात्कर्तृत्वम् ।
> > > इतरनिखिलप्रपञ्चोत्पत्तौ  हिरण्यगर्भादिद्वारा । >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > << atra  cha  parameshvarasya pa~nchatanmAtrAdyutpattau,
> > > saptadashAvayavopeta-li~NgasharIrotpattau,
> > hiraNyagarbhasthUlasharIrotpattau
> > > cha,  sAkShAtkartRRitvam | itaranikhilaprapa~nchotpattau
> > > hiraNyagarbhAdidvArA |>>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Translation,  Swami Madhavananda  << Now, in the origination of the
> five
> > > subtle elements etc. ( footnote ; refers to the five gross elements ),
> > the
> > > subtle body consisting of seventeen components, and the gross body of
> > > Hiranyagarbha, God is a direct agent ; while in the origination of all
> > the
> > > rest of the universe He is such through the medium of Hiranyagarbha and
> > > others ( Footnote ; Refers to the PrajApatis, the progenitors of
> > different
> > > beings ).>>.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
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