[Advaita-l] Trimurtis are created of Pancha bhūta-s - Shankara

[Raghav Kumar Dwivedula]

Namaste Subbu ji and Chandramouliji
Thank you for an interesting discussion. I too had the kathopaniShad verse
in mind quoted by Subbu ji.

Also just wondering if Subbuji is referring to kArya brahman who is
apancIkRta pancamahabhUta i.e., tanmAtra-born, while Chandramouliji is
talking of kAraNa brahman who is not constituted of even such  sUkShma
pancabhUtas.

I suppose no one would contend with the above para?

Now the tricky part -
Can we say that kAraNa brahman ( since upAdhi is present) can be also be
referred to as saguNa brahman or Ishvara? I suppose yes we can.

As in shvetAsvataropaniShad -
hiraNyagarbham pashyata jAyamAnam
sa no devaH shubhayA smrityA samyunaktu...
( My understanding - kAraNa brahman 'saw' or 'oversaw'
hiraNyagarbha-sRShTi and presumably revealed the veda mantras to this
prathamaja jIva who is also called saguNa brahman /Ishvara in the context
of subsequent sRShti krama of 14 lokas etc.

 And yet this kAraNa brahman who existed even before hiraNyagarbha, is
still mayopAdhika saguNam brAhma or Ishvara and we can still direct prayer
to this kAraNa brahman saying 'sa no devaH shubhayA smrityA samyunaktu'.
And kAraNopAdika brahman / Ishvara is not constituted by the apancIkRta
mahAbhUtas either. )

Om

Raghav



On 23-Nov-2017 8:35 PM, "V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l" <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Dear Sri Chandramouli ji,
>
> Do the portions cited by you contradict the ones cited by me?  When it is
> said ' atra  cha  parameshvarasya pa~nchatanmAtrAdyutpattau,
> saptadashAvayavopeta-li~NgasharIrotpattau,  hiraNyagarbhasthUlasharIrotpat
> tau
> cha,  sAkShAtkartRRitvam |' it should not be forgotten that God, in the
> context of creation, is already defined by this very text, that I have
> cited: Brahman, with māyā association resolves to create.  This element of
> Māyā is the pariṇāmi upādāna kāraṇam for the pancha sukṣma bhūtas and from
> them the linga sharira, of both Hiranyagarbha and other jivas. So, when God
> is the sākśāt kāraṇam, it is only through/with the association of māyā.
> Thus, Hiranyagarbha is prakrti kāryam. The text wants to distinguish the
> stage up to which Brahman is the direct cause and the stage from which
> Hiranyagarbha is the cause.
>
> regards
> subbu
>
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 7:50 PM, H S Chandramouli <
> hschandramouli at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Reg  << In the 7th Pariccheda is the jagatsṛṣṭi krama is detailed. There
> > it is stated ( I am giving only a summary and not the exact lines, which
> > may be read in any standard publication.) Brahman, with māyā association
> > resolves to create. Thereupon emerge the five elements - apanchīkṛta
> pancha
> > tanmātra-named elements. Then there is a discussion about the guṇa-s of
> the
> > elements. And the creation of the sense and  motor organs and the
> > antahkaranam. Then is the panchikaraṇa process detailed, incidentally.
> Then
> > it says:
> >
> > तैश्च अपञ्चीकृतभूतैः लिङ्गशरीरम् परलोकयात्रानिर्वाहकं ....जायते । From
> > the apanchikrta pancha bhutas emerges the Linga sharīra, which is of two
> > types: Param and aparam. Param is Hiranyagarbhalingashariram. Aparam is
> our
> > lingashariram. Hiranyagarbhalingasharira is called Mahat tattvam. After
> > this the 14 lokas are stated to be born of the panchikrta bhutas.  >>,
> >
> >
> >
> > This is succeeded by the following in Vedanta Paribhasha
> >
> >
> >
> > << अत्र  च  परमेश्वरस्य पञ्चतन्मात्राद्युत्पत्तौ,  सप्तदशावयवोपेत-
> > लिङ्गशरीरोत्पत्तौ,  हिरण्यगर्भस्थूलशरीरोत्पत्तौ  च,  साक्षात्कर्तृत्वम् ।
> > इतरनिखिलप्रपञ्चोत्पत्तौ  हिरण्यगर्भादिद्वारा । >>
> >
> >
> >
> > << atra  cha  parameshvarasya pa~nchatanmAtrAdyutpattau,
> > saptadashAvayavopeta-li~NgasharIrotpattau,
> hiraNyagarbhasthUlasharIrotpattau
> > cha,  sAkShAtkartRRitvam | itaranikhilaprapa~nchotpattau
> > hiraNyagarbhAdidvArA |>>
> >
> >
> >
> > Translation,  Swami Madhavananda  << Now, in the origination of the five
> > subtle elements etc. ( footnote ; refers to the five gross elements ),
> the
> > subtle body consisting of seventeen components, and the gross body of
> > Hiranyagarbha, God is a direct agent ; while in the origination of all
> the
> > rest of the universe He is such through the medium of Hiranyagarbha and
> > others ( Footnote ; Refers to the PrajApatis, the progenitors of
> different
> > beings ).>>.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
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