[Advaita-l] The 'Snake-and-ladder' game - The Spiritual path

[Aditya Kumar]

 If I were to put it in a different way, we have practical spirituality (based on experience) which is different from religion (based on faith/belief). For Ramana, these two are distinct but for Shankara, these two converge in a unique way because of the unique nature of Brahman and the unique superiority/significance of the scriptures. Perhaps further simplifying this, we can say that for Ramana, to have Advaitic experience, scripture are not necessary because his experience was exemplified by scriptures. But for Shankara, there is no difference between scriptures and the brahman and the experience of it. They are all interconnected in a strangely unique way because of the unique nature of Brahman.  
    On Friday, 10 August, 2018, 11:30:21 PM IST, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 http://talkandcomment.com/p/97870e1a034f4ca9f60fec65 (voice note)

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:21 PM Aditya Kumar <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com> wrote:

 I already mentioned that Shankara talks about anubhava but in altogether different way. Brahma-anubhava is different from ordinary anubhava as Brahman is self-luminous. Hence Brahma-anubhuti has to be brought about by cognition or intuition. In other words the correct cognition itself is termed anubhava/experience. Whoever knows brahman becomes brahman. For this cognition/experience, the mahavakyas are central and not any sadhana other than that. Everything else is just an aid for Shankara. In other words, the only way of 'knowing oneself' is by understanding the implied meaning of Shruti/mahavakyas. However, Ramana's approach takes the ordinary meaning of anubhava so as to mean ordinary experience like 'death experience' as a source for his achievement of Moksha. This is more closer to Patanjali's Yoga school or a Buddhist Nirvana than Advaita of Shankara. 
    On Friday, 10 August, 2018, 10:45:50 PM IST, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 
http://talkandcomment.com/p/b00987223fbd093e49085a72 (voice note)





ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्यम्प्रथमोऽध्यायःप्रथमः पादः सूत्रम् २ - भाष्यम्

………श्रुत्यादय एव प्रमाणं ब्रह्मजिज्ञासायाम् । किन्तु श्रुत्यादयोऽनुभवादयश्च यथासम्भवमिह प्रमाणम् , अनुभवावसानत्वाद्भूतवस्तुविषयत्वाच्च ब्रह्मज्ञानस्य । कर्तव्ये हि विषये नानुभवापेक्षास्तीति श्रुत्यादीनामेव प्रामाण्यं स्यात्………




ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्यम्द्वितीयोऽध्यायःप्रथमः पादः सूत्रम् ४ - भाष्यम्

………चादृष्टमर्थं समर्पयन्ती युक्तिरनुभवस्य सन्निकृष्यते, विप्रकृष्यते तु श्रुतिः, ऐतिह्यमात्रेण स्वार्थाभिधानात् ; अनुभवावसानं च ब्रह्मविज्ञानमविद्याया निवर्तकं मोक्षसाधनं च दृष्टफलतयेष्यते ; श्रुतिरपि —………

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:18 PM Aditya Kumar <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com> wrote:

 Thank you for your voice message Subramanianji. So you have argued in favour of Ramana endorsing Shruti pramana. This might be true and I am not at all denying that. However, from my understanding, Ramana Maharshi gives more importance to experience over accumulation of scriptural knowledge. Very similar to Buddhist insistence of meditation. They say that scriptural knowledge is useless until you experience it yourself and thereby derive direct knowledge. We might confuse aparokshanubhuti of Shankara with this. However, in Shankara's view, Moksha is cognitive and not experiential. So Moksha according to Shankara is perfect understanding of Shruti vakyas. Hence, until that happens, there is shravana, manana and nidhidhyasa. Hence scriptures are indispensable for Shankara. However, in Ramana's approach, Scriptures have to dispensed off even if you are a beginner because it is not at all required to 'experience one's own self'. 
Further, whether Ramana based his experience on Shruti or Tamil Shaiva scriptures or the Bible is immaterial when Moksha is not an experience at all, for it were an experience, it would be limited by time and other adjuncts. If Ramana experienced Moksha, there is a triad of 'experiencer'-experienced and the experience.  Who experiences what and through what?
    On Friday, 10 August, 2018, 11:16:30 AM IST, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 http://talkandcomment.com/p/3b40f7c58b6be9c48a940ba0 (voice note)

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:15 AM Aditya Kumar via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

I partly agree with you. However Ramana himself is/was a liberal practitioner. Basically he is saying that he approached the whole Hindu concept of Moksha through personal experience and not by scriptural authority. In that sense, the practicality of such personal experience would be similar to all religions, to all cultures etc because you need not put faith on validity of scriptures at all. Hence they claim it is non dogmatic as it is experiential knowledge and not something derived from some scriptures.  However there is a whole other debate whether Advaitic Moksha is experiential or cognitive. Further, a Hindu will always claim the ShAstra yOnitvat of the Advaitic truth, hence binding into a religious belief.
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 10/8/18, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] The 'Snake-and-ladder' game - The Spiritual path
 To: "Aditya Kumar" <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>, "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 Date: Friday, 10 August, 2018, 4:17 AM

 No one has any
 issues with giving advaitic interpretations to selected
 statements such as "The kingdom of heaven is within you
 " or "anaa al haqq" etc etc. But that can
 hardly amount to "endorsing  Christianity," with
 all its the central dogmas of those texts. Also we have such
 interpretations are endorsed by only a very small  liberal
 section of practitioners of those traditions. They are only
 a advaitic Hindu interpretation of the Bible rather than a
 Christian interpretation of that very text. In fact we will
 be able to see occasional shades of Advaita in so many
 places and can empathise with those. What of that? That does
 not mean Sri Ramana puts all religious views on the same
 level. 


 On Fri 10
 Aug, 2018, 9:21 AM Aditya Kumar via Advaita-l, <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:
 Even
 Ramana Maharshi has no issues with christianity. In fact he
 endorses it because the Advaitic concept is beautifully
 explained in the Bible. Pls see link below :



 http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5060.0





 --------------------------------------------

 On Thu, 9/8/18, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
 wrote:



  Subject: [Advaita-l]  The 'Snake-and-ladder' game
 - The Spiritual path

  To: "A. Discussion Group for Advaita Vedanta"
 <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>

  Cc: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>

  Date: Thursday, 9 August, 2018, 8:09 PM



  More here on other religions from Sringeri

  guru -

  http://svbf.org/thought-of-the-day





     

     - Similarly a seeker should

  apply his God given gifts on the stable background of
 his

  God chosen faith. So a Hindu should try to become a
 better

  Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Buddhist a better

  Buddhist and a Christian a better Christian. –

  Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal

     - Who are we to sit in

  judgement over other religious teachers and religions?
 Waste

  not your precious life in judging others. Use it to
 regulate

  your life and purify yourself. – Chandrasekhara
 Bharati

  Mahaswamigal

     - There must be perfect

  equality – each man to his religion – unmolested by

  anybody and every facility guaranteed to him to practice
 his

  own religious pursuit. – Chandrasekhara Bharati

  Mahaswamigal

     - Every facility must be given

  for a Hindu to live the life of a Hindu, a Muslim to
 live

  the life of a Muslim, a Christian the life of a
 Christian,

  and so on. – Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal

     - No one on earth, howsoever

  powerful, has any right to compel the people to change
 or

  break their religious laws. No one has the right to

  interfere in the religious matters of another. –

  Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal

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