[Advaita-l] Sri Ramana stressed importance of a Guru

Aditya Kumar kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 11 04:34:36 EDT 2018
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 Shankara does not expect one to study a minimum no of scriptures to graduate as a jnani. Only a single Upanishad such as Mandukya is sufficient to know the truth. But due to the impurity of Antahkarana, one has to purify it so that it becomes clear as crystal (understanding). Of all the purifiers, jnana is the most direct and the best form of purifier like light removing darkness which is why we tend to read the same books like Gita over and over again. Hence, the scriptural validity and the understanding of scriptures by repeated shravanadi is of paramount importance to Shankara. Not sheer no of scriptures but a purified intellect. 
I am surprised that you say Ramana stressed the importance of Guru as he himself was a liberal Hindu. Arunachala hill being a guru can be a romanticized adoption of the concept into a fictional work but it never fulfills the practical utility of a sadguru. Shankara has already at many instances has mentioned who and how a Guru should be and so I won't bring it up again for comparison. GurumukhAt ShAstra Shravanam needs someone with an ability to speak to be a guru. Ramana never had any guru.
    On Saturday, 11 August, 2018, 7:38:25 AM IST, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:  
 
 One other point is that Sri Ramana always stressed the primacy of the Guru.
He always said he had a Guru viz., Arunachala Bhagavan.

This fact is sometimes lost sight of that shAstra vichAra as a means for
GYAnam does not mean studying and poring over scriptural  books, it
primarily means gurumukhAt shravaNam, listening and studying under a Guru.
Its rightly called a karNa paramparA  - knowledge by "listening" viz.,
shAstra has no independent status to inform without the mediacy of the
Guru. As far as the student is concerned, it's the Guru's words and
explanations which are "shAstra" . The accomplished traditional Guru may
sometimes not even directly quote a single scriptural Shlokas or
commentaries during his teaching , but he is so much in tune with the
shAstra vision that his words will still convey it.

 Once the basic framework of Advaita is in place in the students' mind
thanks to the teacher(s), then alone the key to self-study is available and
a student can safely venture in to some degree of self-study .

I say all this to preempt a common  objection that brahmaGYAnam cannot be
gained by poring over books. True enough but, the take of the tradition is
differently framed viz.,
Aatma vichAra = shAstra vichAra = gurumukhAt shravaNam (receptively
"listening" to the words of the teachers)

No body is saying metely poring over shAstra books will give AtmaGYAnam.



On Fri 10 Aug, 2018, 11:47 PM Aditya Kumar via Advaita-l, <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

>  If I were to put it in a different way, we have practical spirituality
> (based on experience) which is different from religion (based on
> faith/belief). For Ramana, these two are distinct but for Shankara, these
> two converge in a unique way because of the unique nature of Brahman and
> the unique superiority/significance of the scriptures. Perhaps further
> simplifying this, we can say that for Ramana, to have Advaitic experience,
> scripture are not necessary because his experience was exemplified by
> scriptures. But for Shankara, there is no difference between scriptures and
> the brahman and the experience of it. They are all interconnected in a
> strangely unique way because of the unique nature of Brahman.
>    On Friday, 10 August, 2018, 11:30:21 PM IST, V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  http://talkandcomment.com/p/97870e1a034f4ca9f60fec65 (voice note)
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:21 PM Aditya Kumar <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>  I already mentioned that Shankara talks about anubhava but in altogether
> different way. Brahma-anubhava is different from ordinary anubhava as
> Brahman is self-luminous. Hence Brahma-anubhuti has to be brought about by
> cognition or intuition. In other words the correct cognition itself is
> termed anubhava/experience. Whoever knows brahman becomes brahman. For this
> cognition/experience, the mahavakyas are central and not any sadhana other
> than that. Everything else is just an aid for Shankara. In other words, the
> only way of 'knowing oneself' is by understanding the implied meaning of
> Shruti/mahavakyas. However, Ramana's approach takes the ordinary meaning of
> anubhava so as to mean ordinary experience like 'death experience' as a
> source for his achievement of Moksha. This is more closer to Patanjali's
> Yoga school or a Buddhist Nirvana than Advaita of Shankara.
>    On Friday, 10 August, 2018, 10:45:50 PM IST, V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> http://talkandcomment.com/p/b00987223fbd093e49085a72 (voice note)
>
>
>
>
>
> ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्यम्प्रथमोऽध्यायःप्रथमः पादः सूत्रम् २ - भाष्यम्
>
> ………श्रुत्यादय एव प्रमाणं ब्रह्मजिज्ञासायाम् । किन्तु
> श्रुत्यादयोऽनुभवादयश्च यथासम्भवमिह प्रमाणम् ,
> अनुभवावसानत्वाद्भूतवस्तुविषयत्वाच्च ब्रह्मज्ञानस्य । कर्तव्ये हि विषये
> नानुभवापेक्षास्तीति श्रुत्यादीनामेव प्रामाण्यं स्यात्………
>
>
>
>
> ब्रह्मसूत्रभाष्यम्द्वितीयोऽध्यायःप्रथमः पादः सूत्रम् ४ - भाष्यम्
>
> ………चादृष्टमर्थं समर्पयन्ती युक्तिरनुभवस्य सन्निकृष्यते, विप्रकृष्यते तु
> श्रुतिः, ऐतिह्यमात्रेण स्वार्थाभिधानात् ; अनुभवावसानं च
> ब्रह्मविज्ञानमविद्याया निवर्तकं मोक्षसाधनं च दृष्टफलतयेष्यते ; श्रुतिरपि
> —………
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:18 PM Aditya Kumar <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>  Thank you for your voice message Subramanianji. So you have argued in
> favour of Ramana endorsing Shruti pramana. This might be true and I am not
> at all denying that. However, from my understanding, Ramana Maharshi gives
> more importance to experience over accumulation of scriptural knowledge.
> Very similar to Buddhist insistence of meditation. They say that scriptural
> knowledge is useless until you experience it yourself and thereby derive
> direct knowledge. We might confuse aparokshanubhuti of Shankara with this.
> However, in Shankara's view, Moksha is cognitive and not experiential. So
> Moksha according to Shankara is perfect understanding of Shruti vakyas.
> Hence, until that happens, there is shravana, manana and nidhidhyasa. Hence
> scriptures are indispensable for Shankara. However, in Ramana's approach,
> Scriptures have to dispensed off even if you are a beginner because it is
> not at all required to 'experience one's own self'.
> Further, whether Ramana based his experience on Shruti or Tamil Shaiva
> scriptures or the Bible is immaterial when Moksha is not an experience at
> all, for it were an experience, it would be limited by time and other
> adjuncts. If Ramana experienced Moksha, there is a triad of
> 'experiencer'-experienced and the experience.  Who experiences what and
> through what?
>    On Friday, 10 August, 2018, 11:16:30 AM IST, V Subrahmanian <
> v.subrahmanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  http://talkandcomment.com/p/3b40f7c58b6be9c48a940ba0 (voice note)
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:15 AM Aditya Kumar via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> I partly agree with you. However Ramana himself is/was a liberal
> practitioner. Basically he is saying that he approached the whole Hindu
> concept of Moksha through personal experience and not by scriptural
> authority. In that sense, the practicality of such personal experience
> would be similar to all religions, to all cultures etc because you need not
> put faith on validity of scriptures at all. Hence they claim it is non
> dogmatic as it is experiential knowledge and not something derived from
> some scriptures.  However there is a whole other debate whether Advaitic
> Moksha is experiential or cognitive. Further, a Hindu will always claim the
> ShAstra yOnitvat of the Advaitic truth, hence binding into a religious
> belief.
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 10/8/18, Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <raghavkumar00 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] The 'Snake-and-ladder' game - The Spiritual path
>  To: "Aditya Kumar" <kumaraditya22 at yahoo.com>, "A discussion group for
> Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  Date: Friday, 10 August, 2018, 4:17 AM
>
>  No one has any
>  issues with giving advaitic interpretations to selected
>  statements such as "The kingdom of heaven is within you
>  " or "anaa al haqq" etc etc. But that can
>  hardly amount to "endorsing  Christianity," with
>  all its the central dogmas of those texts. Also we have such
>  interpretations are endorsed by only a very small  liberal
>  section of practitioners of those traditions. They are only
>  a advaitic Hindu interpretation of the Bible rather than a
>  Christian interpretation of that very text. In fact we will
>  be able to see occasional shades of Advaita in so many
>  places and can empathise with those. What of that? That does
>  not mean Sri Ramana puts all religious views on the same
>  level.
>
>
>  On Fri 10
>  Aug, 2018, 9:21 AM Aditya Kumar via Advaita-l, <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>  wrote:
>  Even
>  Ramana Maharshi has no issues with christianity. In fact he
>  endorses it because the Advaitic concept is beautifully
>  explained in the Bible. Pls see link below :
>
>
>
>  http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5060.0
>
>
>
>
>
>  --------------------------------------------
>
>  On Thu, 9/8/18, Kalyan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> >
>  wrote:
>
>
>
>  Subject: [Advaita-l]  The 'Snake-and-ladder' game
>  - The Spiritual path
>
>  To: "A. Discussion Group for Advaita Vedanta"
>  <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
>
>  Cc: "Kalyan" <kalyan_kg at yahoo.com>
>
>  Date: Thursday, 9 August, 2018, 8:09 PM
>
>
>
>  More here on other religions from Sringeri
>
>  guru -
>
>  http://svbf.org/thought-of-the-day
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      - Similarly a seeker should
>
>  apply his God given gifts on the stable background of
>  his
>
>  God chosen faith. So a Hindu should try to become a
>  better
>
>  Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Buddhist a better
>
>  Buddhist and a Christian a better Christian. –
>
>  Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal
>
>      - Who are we to sit in
>
>  judgement over other religious teachers and religions?
>  Waste
>
>  not your precious life in judging others. Use it to
>  regulate
>
>  your life and purify yourself. – Chandrasekhara
>  Bharati
>
>  Mahaswamigal
>
>      - There must be perfect
>
>  equality – each man to his religion – unmolested by
>
>  anybody and every facility guaranteed to him to practice
>  his
>
>  own religious pursuit. – Chandrasekhara Bharati
>
>  Mahaswamigal
>
>      - Every facility must be given
>
>  for a Hindu to live the life of a Hindu, a Muslim to
>  live
>
>  the life of a Muslim, a Christian the life of a
>  Christian,
>
>  and so on. – Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal
>
>      - No one on earth, howsoever
>
>  powerful, has any right to compel the people to change
>  or
>
>  break their religious laws. No one has the right to
>
>  interfere in the religious matters of another. –
>
>  Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal
>
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