[Advaita-l] The 'Light of Consciousness'.

[H S Chandramouli]

Pranams Sri Sadananda Ji,

Reg << Having created the dream world, one can say 'He enters' as the
subject in the dream creation and there other objects which constitute
chara and achara - or sentient and insentient beings with their own bodies
>>.

 That is just the point. Shruti does not say ‘ He enters ‘ as the subject
in the dream Creation. It applies only for the jagrat Creation. Vedanta
also concedes that no sin is committed for any violation of vidhIs in the
dream state. That is not said from the standpoint of the waking state. That
definitely is a difference between the waking and dream states. I am not
referring to whether the dreamer considers he is in the dream state or not
while dreaming.

Reg  << If I am running away from the tiger that is chasing me and tiger is
also perhaps praying god to have her food after a long time, karmendriyas
and jnaanedriyas are functioning for both 'jeevas' >>.

Not so. It is akin to a movie which is being viewed by the actor who in the
movie is being chased by a tiger. Dream experience is only for the dreamer
to expiate HIS karma. The tiger does not expiate ITS karma. If the tiger
were to eat part of the dreamer jIva (not the dreamer but the dreamer
forming part of the dream creation), it is a projection of his karma and
nothing to do with the tiger. The tiger only appears to eat him who also is
a projection only. Only the dreamer is real (same as the waker) and has an
experience.

I just thought o presenting my views also. We have to settle for agreeing
to disagree.

Regards

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On Wed, Dec 26, 2018 at 1:18 PM kuntimaddi sadananda <
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Chandramouliji PraNAms
>
> As I understand, one has to look each state from its own reference. What
> you said is true from the point of wakers' mind. When the dream world is
> created, the waker's mind becomes Iswara's mind that pervades the entire
> dream universe that includes all the jeevas in the dream. Having created
> the dream world, one can say 'He enters' as the subject in the dream
> creation and there other objects which constitute chara and achara - or
> sentient and insentient beings with their own bodies. As Swami
> Paramarthanandaji - the dream is not a dream for a dreamer while he is the
> dream'. I should have put that statement in quotes. Hence from dream
> subject point as Mandukya Upanishad (aagama part) - which describes the
> dream state - in the same fashion as the waking state. -ekona vimshati
> mukhaH - is used for both the waker and dreamer - 19 gateways the subject
> experiences - five jnaanedriyas, five karmendriyas, five praanaas and mind,
> intellect, memory and ego - total 19 applies both the waker jeeva and
> dreamer jeeva. If I am running away from the tiger that is chasing me and
> tiger is also perhaps praying god to have her food after a long time,
> karmendriyas and jnaanedriyas are functioning for both 'jeevas'. Hence a
> dream subject I am perceiving the world outside including the sun and
> running in the forest in the sunlight only. Only when I am awakened from
> the dream then I realize that it is all dream and I do not have to go after
> that tiger with a gun. Then it is recognized that it was in the play of MI
> due to suppressions and oppressions in the mind which act as seed
> vaasanaasa for my dream creation.
>
> If one looks at the vaitatya prakarana - Goudapaada says - perceptibility,
> transactability or utility are not the criteria to establish the reality
> since these are possible in both waking and dream state. That which is
> abhaadhitam or that is which has nityatvam alone is real.
>
>
> Hari Om!
>
> Sadananda
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 12:54:30 PM GMT+5:30, H S Chandramouli
> via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
>
> Pranams Sri Sadananda Ji,
>
> I was not clear about what the post intended to say about the dream state.
> Hence I have taken just one sentence from it to present my understanding
> of  the dream state.
>
> << There also dreamer jeeva has mind different from the mind of the tiger
> that is chasing him. The actions and the thoughts are motivated by the
> dreamer's karmedriyas and jnaanedriyas >>.
>
> Only the dreamer has MI. The other socalled jIvAs like tiger, humans, even
> the look-alike dreamer jIva ( dreamer jIva in the dream, maybe in another
> garb) etc all have no mind of their own. They are only part of the
> dreamer’s subtle MI manifest in a seemingly gross form. There are no
> indriyas ( karmendriyas or jnanendriyas ) functional as well. Mandukya
> kArika 2-15 may be referred. No pramANAs are operative. The dream objects
> including the jIvAs, along with their knowledge thereof,  are
> projected/manifested  simultaneously.
>
> Regards
>
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> On Tue, Dec 25, 2018 at 7:58 PM kuntimaddi sadananda via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
>
> > PraNAms
> > Dream experience comes under internal perceptions where sense waking
> world
> > sense input is not there.
> > What one experiences is based on the memory stored in the mind from past
> > experiences with intermixing of those. The dream world is created not
> > sequentially but simultaneously. Mandukya uses a parallel statement -
> > eknona vimshati mukaH - 19 gateways through which the world is
> experienced,
> > where the BMI of the waker jeeva or dreamer jeeva experiencing their
> > external world.
> > The dream is not a dream for a dreamer while in the dream.
> > Hence similar  pramaanas can operate for the parallel jeevas - One can
> > have in the dream the hare with horns since it is the waker's mind that
> can
> > create from the memory of hares and horns and the dreamer jeeva does not
> > find it as strange. There also dreamer jeeva has mind different from the
> > mind of the tiger that is chasing him. The actions and the thoughts are
> > motivated by the dreamer's karmedriyas and jnaanedriyas. The thought that
> > arises in the mind of the dreamer jeeva is illumined by the light of
> > consciousness, just similar to what happens in the waking world. That it
> > was different and not real is the only conclusion of the waker and not a
> > dreamer.
> > Hence we can have sunlight, moonlight etc just as in the waking world but
> > they are unreal only from the point of the waker and not from the point
> of
> > the dreamer.
> > Goudapaada vaitatya prakarana centers on this to prove that two worlds
> are
> > similar and unreal.
> > The one who has awakened to the paaramaarthika state, for him even the
> > waking world is unreal.
> > The descriptions are parallel as Madukya puts it.
> > Just my 2c.
> > Hari Om!Sadananda
> >
> >
> >
> >    On Sunday, December 23, 2018, 2:59:48 PM GMT+5:30, Raghav Kumar
> > Dwivedula via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > The dream experience demonstrates the fact that the external object and
> > extrnal sources of light are not essential for our experience of 'Light'.
> > (AtmA is svayam-jyotiH)
> >
> >
> > You incidentally mentioned the following in your post viz., - it's just
> > incidental but was reminded of a humourous video. You wrote-
> >
> > "When I am sitting in a dark room, if you ask me if there is a chair in
> the
> > room, I say, I do not know, since I cannot see it. The chair may be there
> > or may not be there. The probability for the existence or its
> non-existence
> > is 50 percent since there are only two choices."
> >
> > It appears there is a mix up in the above para between possibilities (of
> > which there are two viz., either the chair is there or not there ) with
> > probabilities (which will have to be weighted based on specifics). We
> > cannot say that all possibilities are equally probable and say it's 50
> per
> > cent for each possibility. For example, a wrong argument would be to say
> -
> > "there are three possibilities when you toss a coin - heads or tails or
> 'it
> > lands on its edge'. So the probability of landing on its edge is 33%."
> >
> > There is a humourous video related to this.
> >
> > https://youtu.be/7y4T7DnSeo0
> >
> > Om
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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